Effects of a (liquid) water canopy

[Cain Wilson]

Hello,

I’m fairly new here. Like... Just signed up today.

I have been reading up on different problems with creationist’s claims and playing devil’s...   Well, I guess, God’s advocate. Anywho, right now I’m looking at the water canopy issue. At this juncture I am curious what the effects on temperature would be. 

The hypothetical scenario: 2 bars of liquid water exerting pressure on the whole atmosphere like a rubber balloon (Because of gravity & cohesion).

The questions: #1 How far above sea level would the atmosphere/canopy boundary be?; #2 How much less heat from the sun would it trap?; #3 At this proximity to the earth, would the top of the canopy evaporate into space?; #4 Would the stars be discernible?; #5  How would the first four questions be affected if the water was 0.1, 1, or 3 bars of water.

(10 Meters of water = 0.9806 Bars)

Edited March 27, 2021 by Cain Wilson

[Bufofrog]

It sounds like you are asking about a scenario where there are 20 meters of liquid water suspended in the atmosphere.  Since that would make no sense, I assume I am misreading what you are saying, could you rephrase your question?

[swansont]

41 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

It sounds like you are asking about a scenario where there are 20 meters of liquid water suspended in the atmosphere.  Since that would make no sense, I assume I am misreading what you are saying, could you rephrase your question?

That amount of water, as vapor, is my take.

 

I'm going to answer a slightly different question, to start (there are so many ways the scenario is just impossible). Let's assume we have 1 square cm of surface. 10 meters of water is 1000 cm, so we have 1000 cm^3, or 1 liter (mass of 1 kg). We're going to vaporize this by raising the temperature and then boiling it. To heat it up to boiling requires 4184 J/kg per ºC. If we start at 20ºC, that's 3.35 x 10^5 J. That's the easy part. To vaporize this water requires 2260 kJ of energy (2260 kJ/kg) (i.e. 2.26 MJ)

Result: ~2.6 MJ. For every square centimeter of surface. And double that, because you wanted ~20m. More than 5 MJ/cm^2

That energy must be released when you go back to a liquid. This has an effect on temperature, to be sure.

 

 

2 bars of water is going to make for pretty difficult breathing. You've now tripled atmospheric pressure, assuming you can get this much vapor in the air (I don't think you can) and what you're breathing is mostly water vapor. Oxygen has dropped from ~20% to less than 7%

[Cain Wilson]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

That amount of water, as vapor, is my take.

 

I'm going to answer a slightly different question, to start (there are so many ways the scenario is just impossible). Let's assume we have 1 square cm of surface. 10 meters of water is 1000 cm, so we have 1000 cm^3, or 1 liter (mass of 1 kg). We're going to vaporize this by raising the temperature and then boiling it. To heat it up to boiling requires 4184 J/kg per ºC. If we start at 20ºC, that's 3.35 x 10^5 J. That's the easy part. To vaporize this water requires 2260 kJ of energy (2260 kJ/kg) (i.e. 2.26 MJ)

Result: ~2.6 MJ. For every square centimeter of surface. And double that, because you wanted ~20m. More than 5 MJ/cm^2

That energy must be released when you go back to a liquid. This has an effect on temperature, to be sure.

 

 

2 bars of water is going to make for pretty difficult breathing. You've now tripled atmospheric pressure, assuming you can get this much vapor in the air (I don't think you can) and what you're breathing is mostly water vapor. Oxygen has dropped from ~20% to less than 7%

So, I’m assuming a mechanism that would hold (yes liquid, not vapor) water like a bubble around the earth.

The questions are about the compression extent, and effects.

This question could be considered as if it were a glass bubble. If the atmosphere was compressed by such a pressure, where would the glass be in relation to sea level? Etc.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Cain Wilson

[Bufofrog]

18 minutes ago, Cain Wilson said:

So, I’m assuming a mechanism that would hold (yes liquid, not vapor) water like a bubble around the earth.

That presents a major problem.  If you assume something that defies physics then any conclusions based on that false assumption is meaningless.

OTOH, clouds are liquid water, they are made of tiny water droplets, so we could discuss that approach.  A bubble of liquid water around the earth is about as likely as a shell of rock in the atmosphere.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Cain Wilson said:

So, I’m assuming a mechanism that would hold (yes liquid, not vapor) water like a bubble around the earth.

Then you can put it anywhere you like, but I think it needs to be rigid

Quote

The questions are about the compression extent, and effects.

This question could be considered as if it were a glass bubble. If the atmosphere was compressed by such a pressure, where would the glass be in relation to sea level? Etc.

If it’s glass there’s no compression. The glass provides the force on the water.

But you can observe what 20m of water would do to visibility, since we have situations like this. Things would be very blue

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Penetration-of-Light-of-Various-Wavelengths-through-Water-Blue-Light-is-the-Strongest_fig3_220785640

http://oceanography-leahmoore.blogspot.com/2010/10/light-attenuation-for-various-colors-of.html

 

[studiot]

17 hours ago, Cain Wilson said:

Hello,

I’m fairly new here. Like... Just signed up today.

I have been reading up on different problems with creationist’s claims and playing devil’s...   Well, I guess, God’s advocate. Anywho, right now I’m looking at the water canopy issue. At this juncture I am curious what the effects on temperature would be. 

 

Are you another Science Fiction Author looking for help ?

Quite a few have been helped here.

 

Or are you referring to Genesis 1:2  ?

Quote

And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the waters.

 

Or what is your purpose ?

Edited March 27, 2021 by studiot

[Cain Wilson]

25 minutes ago, studiot said:

what is your purpose ?

All of the above. I’m curious as to why it’s so far fetched. But I’m really just looking for the numbers for a visualization. (BTW I am not a YEC) 

 

So, perhaps I just need to clarify. In my assumption the water coheres to itself, as water does, and the gases of the atmosphere act as the air in a soap, or water bubble. Not anything that I would put outside of the realm of hypothetical (as this question is, like “What would happen if Earth stopped spinning?”) since we’re still learning about how water reacts with its environment. ( https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200716144719.htm ) 

I am not trying to say how such a thing could come to be. (though if asked: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencenews.org/article/night-cloud-noctilucent-nasa-super-soaker/amp )

I am just curious, If the atmosphere, as it is, were to be compressed by 2 additional bars of pressure, where would the line between the original gases and the additional pressure source fall? 

And, because of the smaller area, how much less solar radiation would be trapped by those original gases, in comparison to what they trap now.

 

I am willing to do the calculations myself, if someone can direct me to a process of Performing such.