Bi- and Homosexuality

[LucidDreamer]

This conversation often ends up as a debate between those who think that it's a choice and those who believe that it's genetic. I don't believe that it's as simple as that. I believe there is a genetic component because people's hormone levels and brain hardwiring differ from person to person.

 

There is also an environmental component to it. I think the environmental component has one of the greatest influences, but it is also the hardest component to understand. There are so many thoughts and experiences that go into creating the make-up of an individual. What kind of males and females was that person exposed to as a child? Did he/she have older sisters or older brothers? Did he/she happen to see his/her older siblings having sex with someone else? What were the person’s first experiences like when they began to see themselves as a sexual being? What were the feelings about homosexuality like in their household? Did they experience unhealthy exposure to a sexual act? What were their earliest sexual experiences like?

 

All of these environmental factors combine with the person's mental make-up. A person's thoughts about their experiences will also be a factor. If they had some homosexual thoughts, did they experience guilt for having them? Are they a person who is likely to be heavily influenced by how other people think they should act?

 

It is clearly not just a choice because sexuality is not a rational thought process; it is a very instinctual process that works on a subconscious level. It is true that you could choose to abstain from homosexual sex or any kind of sex, but it is also true that you could choose not to eat, drink, be addicted to heroine, work, or smoke. But all of these things are far more complicated than just not choosing to do them.

 

It is clearly not purely genetic or otherwise you would not find so many women today who have had lesbian experiences now that it is so accepted. You would also not find so many cases of male homosexuality in certain cultures like ancient Greece or in modern prisons where it is very common. I don't believe that the ancient Greeks had a gay gene or that a lesbian gene is on the rise in America or that prisoners pick up a gay gene on the way in and drop it off when they leave.

 

A person's environment combined with their mental-makeup and their individual physiology will result in a certain behaviors and thoughts, including sexual preference.

[Lance]

Firsly, I'm bi-sexual, not homosexual. And, before I could even begin to say if I was raised "normaly," you'd have to say what normal is. I'd say I was raised normaly. I mean, there was no "child abuse" or the such... there was no, "You MUST do this or we'll disown you." type thing...

 

What was your relationship with your father like?

[AL]

I don't believe that. You are not born with a gene dictating whether you prefer vanilla or strawberry ice-cream' date=' so why should you be born with a gene dictating whether you prefer men or women? You may have a genetic preference for one or the other, but it is probably not one gene and I imagine that social phenotypic factors are more powerful.

 

Ask youself this: if you were brought up in a society where it was normal to be homosexual, do you think you would be? I think if most people are being honest then they would say yes. It is only natural to be infuenced by your surroundings. [/quote']

If society were more open to homosexuals, I'm sure more of them would come out of the closet, but that doesn't necessarily mean more are choosing to be gay.

 

One of the main reasons I doubt culture and social influences play a significant role in homosexuality is the prevalence of homosexuality in many animals. Consider this study of gay sheep:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3008

It's doubtful that sheep have a meaningful "culture" or "society" and yet as many as 1 in 10 rams are gay. Not to mention that this study suggests there is a biological connection (a smaller hypothalamus) to homosexuality. Of course, it may still be the case that sheep can choose to be gay and this choice causes their hypothalamus to shrink, but that I highly doubt that.

 

In any event, I agree that whether or not it is a choice should not dictate how homosexuals should be treated.

[BobbyJoeCool]

What was your relationship with your father like?

 

Like close friends. I really can't think of how to describe it.

[BobbyJoeCool]

The general public dislikes me, but when people actually take the chance (or are forced to take a chance) to get to know me, They find out I'm a regular, normal (albeit a little crazy at times) human being. And once they get used to the fact that I act like a strange cross between a boy and a girl, they realize that they can have a lot of fun with me. But almost everyone is like "you like boys, get away from me you queer."

 

Society today...

[1veedo]

Move to Europe.

[Sayonara]

I don't believe that. You are not born with a gene dictating whether you prefer vanilla or strawberry ice-cream, so why should you be born with a gene dictating whether you prefer men or women? You may have a genetic preference for one or the other, but it is probably not one gene and I imagine that social phenotypic factors are more powerful.

Imagining isn't really an adequate substitute for experiencing though, is it?

 

 

Ask youself this: if you were brought up in a society where it was normal to be homosexual, do you think you would be? I think if most people are being honest then they would say yes. It is only natural to be infuenced by your surroundings.

I'm sure there's plenty of truth in that, but it only explains away homosexuality if we are strongly confusing sexual activity, love, and meaningful relationships.

 

 

Also, I get pissed off with the attitude that to be 'acceptable' homosexuality has to be a matter of 'who you are' (ie. genetic) rather than a matter what you feel like. No-one should be telling you what to feel, so why is it less acceptable if it is an expression of choice? I have had bisexual friends bullied by the gay community, claiming that they are really 'fully gay' and are just kidding themselves that they are bi. That is as bad as homophobia in my book. People should be free to have (consensual) sex with whomever they want without having to give an explanation to anyone (unless in a stable relationship with someone else of course, in which case they own an explanation to their partner). And they certainly shouldn't have to prove that their prediliction is genetic!

That's all very noble, and I agree with your basic sentiments, but disagreeing that a genetic component is required doesn't mean that it can be written off.

[Sayonara]

2) a chemical imbalance (males end up with more estrogen than they should have, etc.)

It's not all about oestrogen. Just because the most visible gays are the squawking queens, it doesn't mean they're the only ones. There are plenty of very testosteroney gay men out there.

 

if you think about it, who would choose to be homosexual? who would CHOOSE to be ridiculed and looked down upon by so many people for the rest of their lives?

This doesn't actually just apply to homosexuals, for the record. I don't know anyone who ever chose to fall in love with somebody.

[Sayonara]

People could chose not to give a shit about what petty-minded people think of them, and just do what feels natural.

Easier said than done if you live in a country that hangs people for having sex with someone of the same gender.

[Sayonara]

no idea as to how you could possibly be homosexual? you were raised normally, etc? are you POSITIVE you have no genetic mutation of any sort that could cause you to be like this?

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Please stop talking about "genetic mutations" making people gay - it's really unproductive.

[Christ slave]

Actually it's caused by an imbalance in the soul--the masculine and feminine polarities. A soul blames a part of its genderless self (the masculine or feminine aspect) of the Father/Mother God as causing its problems and suffering. As a lack of understanding, this soul has an imbalance, a partiality, a bias. Men often find disgust with the female body, women try to overpower men by intellect or some other guilt-ridden force (which can be sex and ridicule, including feminism).

 

If this is not the cause, then it can be do to an immediate series or previous life in which a soul lived in a specific gendered human form. If a soul takes on a new body of the opposite gender, now, because of its egotistical association with the physical body, it may misidentify itself and become sexually confused (an "identity crisis").

 

Tragic, really, but you'd be surprised how many people have a homosexual imbalance; this imbalance not only causes homosexual acts and desires, but for some it can go the opposite extreme and cause "heterosexual" desires but with spite and anger. Such men will often hate "homosexuals" and/or possibly even beat their own wife. Horrible, indeed, but such a person is hypocritically carrying around the same homosexual imbalance. Self-righteousness frees no one !...nor is it cool

 

Have you known a woman who withholds sexual favors from her husband? Such a woman may be, as some may call, a "lesbian"--but I personally would rather say she has a homosexual imbalance, and indeed this spiritual cause outpictures the hate and problem into society, into this material realm in such tragic ways. People parading about their right to sexual exploration and self-pleasure, people crusading against "homosexuals" about their right to hate and oppress them, woman parading about their never-ending fight to be treated like a man (although I do agree women deserve more love by other people on earth today), men promiscuously having sex with woman, prostitutes, beating woman, etc. It's not a healthy thing, indeed, but it goes to the very core of one's identity (or, sense of identity)--the soul.

 

The spirit itself is perfect, indeed, as light cannot be stained, but the identity, in its quest to awaken the beast (in our quest to awaken these animals, these human bodies we are embodied in and to heighten their vibration and awareness), can indeed become confused with the beast. It is your job to psychologically pitchfork the beast and find out what the deeper cause is.

Does your body become "horny" or "sexually aroused" easily and want to enact it? Perhaps this lust is a confusion of the higher truth--your practically sexual, or, rather, intimate and loving relationship with the spiritual master. I myself find that although I am the Son of God, I also have times where I have masturbated unnecessarily because of a feeling in my pelvic region and body, my heart, that felt like sexual desire or need.

 

The truth is, however, that this is not so--the soul is located beneath the belly button in the pelvic region and when I feel it becoming aroused, it is truly my soul intimately receiving light in an almost sexual manner, as the lightbeam of God, of the Christ mind, of my husband Jesus Christ (there are other masters, Buddha, for example, so understand if you will) penetrates and illuminates me. The beast itself, whom I am incarnated in presently may interpret this according to its identity. When you no longer identify yourself with the beast, you can begin to see clearly who and what you are, and what is going on. This relationship is more intimate than human sex. It is the intimacy of me with my spiritual master, with a part of me, a part of us. As I see now the beast thought it was its own sexual desire, its own sexual experience, and so it felt compelled to outpicture and enact it, be it through lust, masturbation, pornography, and/or real sexual activity.

 

But the reality is that my soul was the one having intercourse--ME. My beast/body did not and does not need to. Furthermore I need not hate myself (my feminine aspect), as I see now that as I allow myself to be the bride of Christ in something most people would think "blasphemous" or "shameful" or some other strange assumption of their right to spiritual intimacy, I have no problem giving myself to the Christ as a wife to her husband, and so I don't need to hate my feminine aspect nor be disgusted, but I can be her, even if my human form's gender is male. I am not embarrassed nor ashamed.

 

Okay, bye, and much love--be more and make your choices.

[Christ slave]

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Please stop talking about "genetic mutations" making people gay - it's really unproductive.

There is such a thing as a homosexual gene. But, keep in mind that nobody is a homosexual...nor are we our physical forms. So, I am not calling anyone with a homosexual gene a homosexual, I don't need to add to people's false sense of identity. It is possible to transfigure your DNA.

[shenzhou]

Actually it's caused by an imbalance in the soul--the masculine and feminine polarities.

 

So gay sheep are caused by an imbalance in the soul?

 

"This study examined endocrine components of sexual orientation of male sheep.

Sexual orientation of adult rams was identified through standardized sexual

performance tests. Four rams that copulated with ewes, four rams that never

mounted females and copulated with males,"

 

Horm Behav 1995 Mar;29(1):31-41

A comparison of LH secretion and brain estradiol receptors in heterosexual and

homosexual rams and female sheep.

Perkins A, Fitzgerald JA, Moss GE.

[Christ slave]

No, it is obvious there are animalistic desires, it's called the ego. However, it is also no doubt that people are capable of transcending their present psychology.

 

Therefore, will you let your animal form run you over like a homosexual ram, or will you take dominion over your true self, beat the imbalance to...balanced again (lol)...and come out victorious?

[CPL.Luke]

^to all of christ slaves posts. erm...no.....

 

 

One thing that can be taken as evidence (I guess it could at least) for a homosexual gene is that a study of homosexual men showed that they are aroused by male pheremones as much as straight men are by female ones, maybe this is just because the body recognizes that its haveing intercoarse with males rather han females at this specific point in time. Maybe it shows a gay gene.

 

My personal oppinion on the matter is that its a bit of curiosity for many bisexuals, although I personally have never really been inclined to try, I know a number of people who have been bi for a period of time and then later go back to being straight. I think this can be likened to people trying various drugs and such, half the time its just curiosity.

 

I think in a society where homosexuality was accepted as a normal practice a larger number of people would try it at least once. This would also explain why a large number of women have had at least 1 lesbian experience. Its just curiosity

[Christ slave]

Actually I have overcome homosexual desires by being educated on the soul. There's a lot of discourses on the askrealjesus.com website, which is totally a nonorthodox Christian website and certainly doesn't advocate Jesus to save you. Lots of informative stuff on there:

 

http://www.askrealjesus.com/N_CURRENT_AFFAIRS/HOMOSEXUALITY/cause_of_homosexual.html

http://www.askrealjesus.com/N_CURRENT_AFFAIRS/HOMOSEXUALITY/experienceoflove.html

http://www.askrealjesus.com/N_CURRENT_AFFAIRS/HOMOSEXUALITY/viewwrong.html

http://www.askrealjesus.com/N_CURRENT_AFFAIRS/HOMOSEXUALITY/homosexualgene.html

http://www.askrealjesus.com/N_CURRENT_AFFAIRS/HOMOSEXUALITY/howtreathomosexuals.html

http://www.askrealjesus.com/N_CURRENT_AFFAIRS/HOMOSEXUALITY/homosexualityresp.html

http://www.askrealjesus.com/N_CURRENT_AFFAIRS/HOMOSEXUALITY/gaymarriage.html

http://www.askrealjesus.com/N_CURRENT_AFFAIRS/HOMOSEXUALITY/gaybishop.html

 

Some of these may be topics not regarding the actual spiritual cause, but there you go.

[CPL.Luke]

hmm isn't there something in the bible about inpersonating a deity... I don't know something about idoletry

[Christ slave]

I don't worship the Bible, and, anyhow, doesn't the Bible also say in Psalms, also quoted by Jesus in John, speaking to incarnated souls (which corresponds with us), "Ye are all gods, sons and daughters of the Most High God." ?

Yes, it does. We are all gods, sons and daughters of God, destined to mature into oneness with God whereby we begin our own universes and worlds.

 

True blasphemy is denying that all things are God, anyhow, if you don't know.

[CPL.Luke]

"thow art god"

 

and I was thinking more about the section where the israelites built a big gold cow (or some such) while moses was talking to god.

[reyam200]

while moses was reciveing the ten commandments, up on mount siani. and they started worshiping the gold cow because they were tired of waiting. if i recall correctly, he spent several weeks on the mount.

[Bubba]

This is an old debate, and usually boils down to nature vs. nurture. To the best of my knowledge there is no accepted evidence of homosexuality being a physiological phenomenon, this doesn’t mean that it is or isn’t. There was however a claim in the early 90’s of a gay gene, but further tests were inconclusive. http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/satinover.html

 

It is hard to make head way on this issue as logical reasoning some times becomes lost in peoples (very strong) personal sexual feeling and preferences. I for example am unavoidably heterosexual not matter what I do. I do not identify with the gay community but I realise that PEOPLE ARE GAY and as human being deserve respect and compassion.

 

Rather that tell you what I think here are a few facts.

 

1)Some people claim not to have a sexuality at all; here is an interesting site on the subject of sexuality. http://www.asexuality.org/home/

 

2)Homosexuality dose have a history. There are accounts of Polynesian communities in which the men who were too young to marry were “husbands” of the older men in the village (sorry I can’t find an appropriate link, watch this space). Similarly in Japanese communities men in the samurai class would often take a young male to bed, even though he had a wife (or two).

 

3)Homosexuality has been observer in some primates http://www.monkeyland.co.za/monkeybusiness.htm

 

4)Darwinism does not forbid homosexuality; it could be a recessive gene. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recessive_gene

 

None of this proves or disproves anything. For all I know maybe it’s an unknown viral infection that we can’t detect because it lives in an unknown part of human anatomy, the “soul” maybe. The point that really needs to be considered is why are gay/bi people treated so differently? None of this will ever be sorted out until, hetero, homo, bi, asexual, Christian right, feminist left, fence sitters and everyone else can come to this debate with a clear, objective mind and leave their personal beliefs at the door.

[reyam200]

also, homosexuality is a choice, yes some people may have a tendency to be that way, mabye because of a nuro chemical imbalence. or gene lke you said(saw a show about it. discovery chanel)but it never eliminates the choice to be heterosexual aka straight.

[CPL.Luke]

yes, but if you don't feel anything towards women, and are attracted to men. is it really a choice?

[shenzhou]

To the best of my knowledge there is no accepted evidence of homosexuality being a physiological phenomenon, this doesn’t mean that it is or isn’t.

 

The study of gay sheep does seem to indicate that homosexuality is caused by differences in brain structure. There is a question about how this relates to humans but mammalian brains are fairly similar particularly those ancient systems that control sexual orientation and usually make animals unchangeably straight but make some animals (including humans) gay or asexual.

 

4)Darwinism does not forbid homosexuality; it could be a recessive gene. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recessive_gene

 

It seems too common to be a purely negative recessive. The trait could be maintained if it was advantageous to the relatives of homosexuals:

 

Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring

male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity

Andrea Camperio-Ciani, Francesca Corna1 and Claudio Capiluppi

Proc. R. Soc. Lond. B (2004) 271, 2217–2221

 

The Darwinian paradox of male homosexuality in humans is examined, i.e. if male homosexuality has a genetic

component and homosexuals reproduce less than heterosexuals, then why is this trait maintained in the

population? In a sample of 98 homosexual and 100 heterosexual men and their relatives (a total of over 4600

individuals), we found that female maternal relatives of homosexuals have higher fecundity than female

maternal relatives of heterosexuals and that this difference is not found in female paternal relatives. The

study confirms previous reports, in particular that homosexuals have more maternal than paternal male

homosexual relatives, that homosexual males are more often later-born than first-born and that they have

more older brothers than older sisters. We discuss the findings and their implications for current research on

male homosexuality.

[Bubba]

shenzhou, thanks for the input, very interesting study.

 

the point i was trying to make is you can't use the "if gays don't have kids how can they pass it on?" argument .When you think about this it seems obvious that any genetic contribution to male homosexuality would have to come from the mothers side.