Time to talk about UFO's or now as the military calls them UAP's?

[Moontanman]

I really don't know what to make of this... I had assumed all was said and done about this subject. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/04/01/we-need-talk-about-ufos-again/

[Moontanman]

Now I'm just confused 🤪

[Bufofrog]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

I had assumed all was said and done about this subject. 

It was.  No ETs, just fun fantasies to talk about.  Things that go bump in the night and all that jazz.

[Moontanman]

Just now, Bufofrog said:

It was.  No ETs, just fun fantasies to talk about.  Things that go bump in the night and all that jazz.

Seems not to be the case according to this article, I'm not holding my breath but... evidently something has put a bee in the militaries bonnett. 

[swansont]

That column did not say that aliens have visited Earth. Among the things it did say was that there literally are objects flying around that no one, including U.S. Navy pilots, can identify, and we have to puzzle out what that means.

There are flying objects we can’t identify, and no, they aren’t aliens.

That doesn’t seem controversial, or something we should expect will change. 

[Moontanman]

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

There are flying objects we can’t identify, and no, they aren’t aliens.

That doesn’t seem controversial, or something we should expect will change. 

The Military doesn't say they are aliens, but some are hoping they are evidently because the alternative is even more disturbing. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Moontanman

[swansont]

1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

The Military doesn't say they are aliens, but some are hoping they are because the alternative is even more disturbing. 

Why is there only one alternative?

[Moontanman]

Just now, swansont said:

Why is there only one alternative?

The alternative in the lastest cases is that some nation on Earth is feilding aircraft that can pretty much run rings around our hardware. I still think there is the possibility the military is gas lighting the media but evidently the truth is going to have to be revealed later this year. 

[swansont]

25 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

The alternative in the lastest cases is that some nation on Earth is feilding aircraft that can pretty much run rings around our hardware. I still think there is the possibility the military is gas lighting the media but evidently the truth is going to have to be revealed later this year. 

That’s one alternative, not the alternative. 

[Moontanman]

4 minutes ago, swansont said:

That’s one alternative, not the alternative. 

Actually I suggested at least two. 

The Military has restricted the possibilities here not me. 

[Phi for All]

It could be aliens, in which case, as the article points out, this hang-back-and-observe approach is a LOT more preferable than the Spanish Conquistador approach, and could suggest they aren't violent.

It could be the US military, pretending not to know what's going on as a security measure. Not likely, but not a huge risk either. We'd certainly forgive them if it meant strategic aerial dominance. And they don't seem to be using the technology in an unethical way....

It could be someone else's military, which is where the scary comes in. There are a few contenders, but normally building something like an aircraft capable of the stunts some of these UFOs pull is more difficult to hide than the planes themselves. Our satellites are pretty good at showing what foreign facilities do. Again though, the technology isn't being used violently.

It could be a private company, which is also scary, just because of the wealth and focus private enterprise can bring to bear. Private interests are usually profit oriented, and other than selling to the military, what profit is there in aircraft that run circles around what the military has? 

Or it could be non-human but still from Earth, the most unlikely. A non-technological flyer we've never found evidence of. It reminds me of the joke about the three-legged chicken, raised for the extra drumstick, but nobody knew what they taste like because nobody could catch one.

[Moontanman]

10 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It could be aliens, in which case, as the article points out, this hang-back-and-observe approach is a LOT more preferable than the Spanish Conquistador approach, and could suggest they aren't violent.

It could be the US military, pretending not to know what's going on as a security measure. Not likely, but not a huge risk either. We'd certainly forgive them if it meant strategic aerial dominance. And they don't seem to be using the technology in an unethical way....

It could be someone else's military, which is where the scary comes in. There are a few contenders, but normally building something like an aircraft capable of the stunts some of these UFOs pull is more difficult to hide than the planes themselves. Our satellites are pretty good at showing what foreign facilities do. Again though, the technology isn't being used violently.

It could be a private company, which is also scary, just because of the wealth and focus private enterprise can bring to bear. Private interests are usually profit oriented, and other than selling to the military, what profit is there in aircraft that run circles around what the military has? 

Or it could be non-human but still from Earth, the most unlikely. A non-technological flyer we've never found evidence of. It reminds me of the joke about the three-legged chicken, raised for the extra drumstick, but nobody knew what they taste like because nobody could catch one.

I was listening to the three legged chicken joke the other day, Dom Deluise on Carson I think. I think the military gas lighting the media is most likely, possibly the sightings are part of training programs of some sort. Some of the evidence is mostly electronic in nature which lends it's self well to this type of thing. The kicker is the supposed demands by the gov for the military to reveal exactly what is going on by june or july. If that happens I'll eat my hat, the military admitting to not being able to control the airspace around their own equipment would be quite an admission. 

I think it was J. Allen Hynek, an early sceptic and employee of the USAF's UFO "investigation" Project Blue Book, who in his later years before his death was talking about some sort of "interdimensional" or "parallel" universe hypothesis as to the origin of the objects and or lights. It may or may not be telling he died of brain cancer. 

[swansont]

4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Actually I suggested at least two. 

The Military has restricted the possibilities here not me. 

If they can’t identify them, they can’t restrict the possibilities 

[Moontanman]

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

If they can’t identify them, they can’t restrict the possibilities 

Good point but the process of elimination has been used to limit what they can be unless as the article states the military knows and is not telling. Still doesn't make them alien of course but the real question here is does the military know or not. It has come to the military having to officially lie to congress/public or tell the truth, I think they will lie. The trick will be trying to figure out which they are doing. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Moontanman

[Phi for All]

37 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I think the military gas lighting the media is most likely, possibly the sightings are part of training programs of some sort. 

The most reasonable explanation is the US military making it all up in order to keep appropriations focused on support against this potential threat. It would also explain how this technology is supposed to exist but nobody has used it to gain the upper hand in the last several decades.

Maybe the technology is more about making radar see things that aren't true. But then you have those pesky eyewitnesses. 

[Moontanman]

13 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

The most reasonable explanation is the US military making it all up in order to keep appropriations focused on support against this potential threat. It would also explain how this technology is supposed to exist but nobody has used it to gain the upper hand in the last several decades.

Maybe the technology is more about making radar see things that aren't true. But then you have those pesky eyewitnesses. 

I'd give you a plus but evidently my ability to do that has passed the daily limit. I'm not sure I would believe it if the military admitted aliens were anal probing rednecks because they can. I think it will be interesting to see what happens, I really think it will go away or simply be classified but this will be telling. To me this would suggest the military is making it up. 

It would be extremely cool if it turned out to be some sort of natural phenomena all along! 

Did anyone check out this link in the article? 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/astronomer-avi-loeb-says-aliens-have-visited-and-hes-not-kidding1/

I'm not sure who this guy is, SwansonT you might be able to answer that better than me. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Moontanman

[beecee]

"Arguably" we as a species, have reached a certain level of intelligence. Certainly if we were being visited by any Alien ETL, they would be far higher up the intelligence ladder. Considering that, I am rather convinced that if we were being visted by Aliens, they would recognise our level of intelligence, and would not need to approach us or Earth in such a mysterious manner. I am convinced they would make themselves known...Instead of buzzing and/or landing in some backwood territory, and anal probing some poor individual, they would instead make themselves more known, and make their presence official and land in the lawns of the White House, or if they preferred VB, on the court of the Sydney Opera House, or government house in Canberra.

I don't accept that they would just be continually flittering in, then flittering out again, creating turmoil and indecision amongst us poor humans, based on the above reasoning.

I don't think they would be agressive or beligerent as they would be scientifically advanced and not really want of anything, as anything found on Earth could be also found throughout the Universe...

I certainly don't accept the analogy of comparing Aliens and their advanced technology, to ourselves, to  that often reference of us [humans] to say ants on an anthill.

Examining this phenomena more, we are fairly certain that there is no other intelligent life anywhere within our solar system, so any Alien visitation would need to have crossed many light years of space to reach us and through many other stellar systems with many other planets. In essence, the two major barriers between intelligent Alien contact and us would be time and distance.

In saying that, and in understanding that we do not have any evidence of any life existing off this Earth as yet, I personally believe that we are not alone and that out there species exist in various forms, and at various levels of evolutionary intelligence.

But as one of the greatest visionaries of our time said, "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan.

Finally I would like to say that the two greatest wishes I have in my life and what's left of it before I kick the bucket, is that evidence for some life off this Earth is finally found, and that man has finally set foot on Mars and returned safely.

 

24 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/astronomer-avi-loeb-says-aliens-have-visited-and-hes-not-kidding1/

I'm not sure who this guy is, SwansonT you might be able to answer that better than me. 

I have heard of him, not sure where and when though...perhaps in Hawking's book, BHoT or something else. His credentials are extraordinary and I certainly would not be dismissing anything that he says, out of hand.

I would add though that most physicists and cosmologists believe we are not alone.

[swansont]

50 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Good point but the process of elimination has been used to limit what they can be unless as the article states the military knows and is not telling. Still doesn't make them alien of course but the real question here is does the military know or not. It has come to the military having to officially lie to congress/public or tell the truth, I think they will lie. The trick will be trying to figure out which they are doing. 

Can you provide a quote?

I think you’re reading more into the article than what’s there.

[Moontanman]

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

"Arguably" we as a species, have reached a certain level of intelligence. Certainly if we were being visited by any Alien ETL, they would be far higher up the intelligence ladder. Considering that, I am rather convinced that if we were being visted by Aliens, they would recognise our level of intelligence, and would not need to approach us or Earth in such a mysterious manner. I am convinced they would make themselves known...Instead of buzzing and/or landing in some backwood territory, and anal probing some poor individual, they would instead make themselves more known, and make their presence official and land in the lawns of the White House, or if they preferred VB, on the court of the Sydney Opera House, or government house in Canberra.

If I remember correctly that was one reason why J. Allen Hynek was considering the "Parallel Universe Hypothesis"  say that that could explain how they do seem to flit in and out of existence but it doesn't really explain much more than aliens or magic really. 

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

I don't accept that they would just be continually flittering in, then flittering out again, creating turmoil and indecision amongst us poor humans, based on the above reasoning.

I don't think they would be agressive or beligerent as they would be scientifically advanced and not really want of anything, as anything found on Earth could be also found throughout the Universe...

Almost certainly true but if intelligence is rare then we might be more interesting than we think.  

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

I certainly don't accept the analogy of comparing Aliens and their advanced technology, to ourselves, to  that often reference of us [humans] to say ants on an anthill.

It should be noted that we study ants quite closely and even try to influence them by using their own communication methods, ie pheromones. 

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

Examining this phenomena more, we are fairly certain that there is no other intelligent life anywhere within our solar system, so any Alien visitation would need to have crossed many light years of space to reach us and through many other stellar systems with many other planets. In essence, the two major barriers between intelligent Alien contact and us would be time and distance.

I really don't think we can necessarily assume that, I've even seen some ideas from real scientists about this and they were interesting at least, both slow boat colonization of objects in the outer solar system by aliens and even previous civilizations from Earth have been suggested. This has a name, the "Silurian Hypothesis"  Not a serious suggestion really but it highlights the limits of our knowledge. 

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

In saying that, and in understanding that we do not have any evidence of any life existing off this Earth as yet, I personally believe that we are not alone and that out there species exist in various forms, and at various levels of evolutionary intelligence.

I waffle back and forth on this, our own rise to "Glory" involved some amazing coincidences, then again intelligence is strongly selected for in evolution and arguably has occurred several times in the history of the Earth from octopus to dolphins to elephants intelligence seems to have some real survival benefits. Technology is not unknown either, from birds to octopus to dolphins some primitive tool use is not unknown either. Use of fire seems to be limited AFAWK to hominids but several species of us have used it as well. 

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

But as one of the greatest visionaries of our time said, "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan.

Yes, this is true, I have often wondered if this bogs us down sometimes but I see no real way around it. 

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

Finally I would like to say that the two greatest wishes I have in my life and what's left of it before I kick the bucket, is that evidence for some life off this Earth is finally found, and that man has finally set foot on Mars and returned safely.

 

Me too, a cancer scare this year kinda made me wonder if I would be around much longer to see these whishes answered. 

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

Can you provide a quote?

I think you’re reading more into the article than what’s there.

 

“There are a lot more sightings than have been made public,” he told host Maria Bartiromo. “Some of those have been declassified.”

“And when we talk about sightings,” Ratcliffe continued, “we are talking about objects that have been seen by Navy or Air Force pilots, or have been picked up by satellite imagery that frankly engage in actions that are difficult to explain.”

“Movements that are hard to replicate that we don’t have the technology for. Or traveling at speeds that exceed the sound barrier without a sonic boom.”

You are correct, this is where I got it. 

[beecee]

24 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

If I remember correctly that was one reason why J. Allen Hynek was considering the "Parallel Universe Hypothesis"  say that that could explain how they do seem to flit in and out of existence but it doesn't really explain much more than aliens or magic really. 

Don't know the "Hynek" character, but have heard of the  parallel universe thingy and similar often.  My thoughts? It's speculative and interesting to consider. I have also heard similar [parallel universe] with regards to ghosts goblins etc.

24 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I really don't think we can necessarily assume that, I've even seen some ideas from real scientists about this and they were interesting at least, both slow boat colonization of objects in the outer solar system by aliens and even previous civilizations from Earth have been suggested. This has a name, the "Silurian Hypothesis"  Not a serious suggestion really but it highlights the limits of our knowledge. 

I envisage that in time, we may find life within our solar system, [the Oceans of Europa, or Enceledus] but it will be pretty basic...none the less, finding any ETL will be a scientifically inspiring, enormous, Earth shattering and life changing [to some] discovery. I hope I'm still around for that. 

24 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Yes, this is true, I have often wondered if this bogs us down sometimes but I see no real way around it.  

Agree.

24 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Me too, a cancer scare this year kinda made me wonder if I would be around much longer to see these whishes answered. 

Hope it turned out OK with the cancer scare.

Personally I imagine myself as aligning with the Richard Dreyfuss character in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" when he willingly went with the Alien beings to wherever. I would jump at that chance.

Edited April 3, 2021 by beecee

[Moontanman]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

Don't know the "Hynek" character, but have heard of the  parallel universe thingy and similar often.  My thoughts? It's speculative and interesting to consider. I have also heard similar [parallel universe] with regards to ghosts goblins etc.

Hynek was the USAF's resident sceptic and debunker for Project Bluebook in the beginning but later became an advocate of scientific study of UFO's. 

1 minute ago, beecee said:

I envisage that in time, we may find life within our solar system, [the Oceans of Europa, or Enceledus] but it will be pretty basic...none the less, finding any ETL will be a scientifically inspiring, enormous, Earth shattering and life changing [to some] discovery. I hope I'm still around for that. 

Agree, but what if it is genetically identical to life on Earth? We are left in the same place we are now. More interesting would be life on Saturn's moon Titan using liquid methane and ethane as a solvent. Such a discovery, two separate genesis's of life in our solar system,   would indicate that life is quite common in the universe. 

1 minute ago, beecee said:

Agree.

Hope it turned out OK with the cancer scare.

Seems to have, still trying to figure out why I keep getting pneumonia, but that will be sorted out I am sure now that they have become aware.  

1 minute ago, beecee said:

Personally I imagine myself as aligning with the Richard Dreyfuss character in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" when he willingly went with the Alien beings to wherever. I would jump at that chance.

Me too, be a hard opportunity to pass on for sure. 

J. Allen Hynek

[swansont]

43 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

 

“There are a lot more sightings than have been made public,” he told host Maria Bartiromo. “Some of those have been declassified.”

“And when we talk about sightings,” Ratcliffe continued, “we are talking about objects that have been seen by Navy or Air Force pilots, or have been picked up by satellite imagery that frankly engage in actions that are difficult to explain.”

“Movements that are hard to replicate that we don’t have the technology for. Or traveling at speeds that exceed the sound barrier without a sonic boom.”

You are correct, this is where I got it. 

“classified” does not mean they know but aren’t telling.

[Moontanman]

Just now, swansont said:

“classified” does not mean they know but aren’t telling.

Not what I meant to insinuate but that is correct. 

[beecee]

22 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Hynek was the USAF's resident sceptic and debunker for Project Bluebook in the beginning but later became an advocate of scientific study of UFO's. 

Of course! Proper and full scientific study of the small percentage of UFO's that remain as unexplained, is desirable, and I certainly wish that we had the time and effort to undertake that. 

 

22 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Agree, but what if it is genetically identical to life on Earth? We are left in the same place we are now. More interesting would be life on Saturn's moon Titan using liquid methane and ethane as a solvent. Such a discovery, two separate genesis's of life in our solar system,   would indicate that life is quite common in the universe. 

Again agreed. Which is why I said previously,  "finding any ETL will be a scientifically inspiring, enormous, Earth shattering and life changing [to some] discovery." I would add that I envisage a great eruption within some deeply religious communities.

22 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Seems to have, still trying to figure out why I keep getting pneumonia, but that will be sorted out I am sure now that they have become aware.  

 Being aware of the problem is the saving grace. Again, all the best.

Edited April 3, 2021 by beecee

[Moontanman]

Just now, beecee said:

Again agreed. Which is why I said previously,  "finding any ETL will be a scientifically inspiring, enormous, Earth shattering and life changing [to some] discovery." I would add that I envisage a great eruption within some deeply religious communities.

I was alluding to the idea that if we do find life on say Mars and it turns out to be genetically identical to "Life on Earth" we couldn't really show it wasn't transported by panspermia to Mars from Earth or vice versa. This would apply to life using water as a solvent anyplace in the solar system. But if that life used different chemicals than Earth life then we would have a second genesis for sure.