Time to talk about UFO's or now as the military calls them UAP's?

[Juswanderin]

I watched a military documentary where Americans claimed that when we invaded Germany we found the scientist and an anti gravity flying device. (UFO) they claimed we captured scientists (facts) and brought them to America where they would show us how it worked (who knows) Within a few years we had the start of ufo sightings. (First sightings correlate with dates) (not with Ancient Egyptians though) this is where the correlation between the New World Order (real thing in presidential speeches) and UFO’s combine. The conspiracy of aliens.. NWO needs something that will unite the world. A possible government that could “save” the world from attackers and earn everyone’s trust and “unite” our world under one “protector”... this is how rulers were made back in the day... the most powerful army wins. In other words fake attack, fake a save, tell us we have protection under the NWO.... I’m just lounging and thought I’d throw an interesting angle out about aliens. I’m not a big believer in this but it makes sense kinda and keeps an open mind looking into all possible angles and manipulations of the unknown. 

[beecee]

5 minutes ago, Juswanderin said:

I watched a military documentary where Americans claimed that when we invaded Germany we found the scientist and an anti gravity flying device. (UFO) they claimed we captured scientists (facts) and brought them to America where they would show us how it worked (who knows) Within a few years we had the start of ufo sightings. (First sightings correlate with dates) (not with Ancient Egyptians though) this is where the correlation between the New World Order (real thing in presidential speeches) and UFO’s combine. The conspiracy of aliens.. NWO needs something that will unite the world. A possible government that could “save” the world from attackers and earn everyone’s trust and “unite” our world under one “protector”... this is how rulers were made back in the day... the most powerful army wins. In other words fake attack, fake a save, tell us we have protection under the NWO.... I’m just lounging and thought I’d throw an interesting angle out about aliens. I’m not a big believer in this but it makes sense kinda and keeps an open mind looking into all possible angles and manipulations of the unknown. 

Most scientists understand that life, at various degrees of evolution, would more then likely exist beyond this Earth. At the same time, those scientists understand that at this time, we still have no evidence of any life off this Earth, or any past visitations of ETL. 

A great man once said, "extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence"

Edited April 13, 2021 by beecee

[Alex_Krycek]

On 4/3/2021 at 10:15 PM, swansont said:

That column did not say that aliens have visited Earth. Among the things it did say was that there literally are objects flying around that no one, including U.S. Navy pilots, can identify, and we have to puzzle out what that means.

There are flying objects we can’t identify, and no, they aren’t aliens.

 

A confident and conclusive statement...based on what?

On 4/3/2021 at 8:53 PM, Moontanman said:

I really don't know what to make of this... I had assumed all was said and done about this subject. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/04/01/we-need-talk-about-ufos-again/

Quite a fascinating documentary was released back in 2020 called "The Phenomenon", directed by James Fox.  Makes a very compelling case that Earth has and is being visited by some unknown intelligence.  

Personally I think it's extremely naive to conclude that in our universe another intelligent species would not develop the means of interstellar travel before us.  An anthropocentric bias, so to speak.  Modern day geo-centrism.  

[Juswanderin]

13 minutes ago, beecee said:

Most scientists understand that life, at various degrees of evolution, would more then likely exist beyond this Earth. At the same time, those scientists understand that at this time, we still have no evidence of any life off this Earth, or any past visitations of ETL. 

A great man once said, "extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence"

Most scientists “agree” that life “might” exist in the universe. I also agree life might exist in the universe. I also believe that scientists on earth “might” have engineered an anti gravity flying device and the correct timeline is more proof than life in the universe. 

[iNow]

29 minutes ago, Juswanderin said:

the correct timeline is more proof than life in the universe. 

It’s unclear to me what you’re trying to communicate here. Are you able to explain the idea you wish to convey another way? 

[Juswanderin]

15 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s unclear to me what you’re trying to communicate here. Are you able to explain the idea you wish to convey another way? 

In 1945 the US started “operation paperclip” where we extracted around 1600 German scientists and engineers. There was one ufo sighting in 1942 where the US attacked a ufo over LA. (If it was the Germans who created the ufo they would use them. And it explains why we attacked) After we brought back the scientists ufo sightings boomed and no ufo was ever attacked again. (Timeline that correlates with German engineering)  Maybe we have spent too much time focusing on aliens and not enough time on the ufos... and the initial post is more of a conspiracy of why the ufo would be kept a secret, why aliens would be the driver, and how it could be manipulated to obtain power. 

[beecee]

2 hours ago, Juswanderin said:

Most scientists “agree” that life “might” exist in the universe. 

Life certainly without doubt exists in this Universe.😉

2 hours ago, Juswanderin said:

 I also believe that scientists on earth “might” have engineered an anti gravity flying device and the correct timeline is more proof than life in the universe. 

We have no evidence that any such device is possible, nor whether it exists. Whereas with life beyond Earth, the general logic that it should exist is of course the near infinite extent of the universe, the near infinite content of the universe [stars, planets] and the stuff of life being everywhere we look. If conditions are right, evolution of life may have taked place elsewhere. Certainly not the extraordinary evidence we would like to 100% convince us, but plenty of reason.

1 hour ago, Juswanderin said:

In 1945 the US started “operation paperclip” where we extracted around 1600 German scientists and engineers. There was one ufo sighting in 1942 where the US attacked a ufo over LA. (If it was the Germans who created the ufo they would use them. And it explains why we attacked) After we brought back the scientists ufo sightings boomed and no ufo was ever attacked again. (Timeline that correlates with German engineering)  Maybe we have spent too much time focusing on aliens and not enough time on the ufos... and the initial post is more of a conspiracy of why the ufo would be kept a secret, why aliens would be the driver, and how it could be manipulated to obtain power. 

UFO's are just that...UFO's with the emphasis on "Unidentified"

 

Of course out of the thousands of reported UFO's, most have been scientifically explained, leaving a small percentage remaining as unidentified. Venus, comet/meteor, trickery/skull duggery, illusions, mirages, weather phenomena, sprites clouds etc etc......or yes, even Aliens. But essentially just unidentified.

The two biggest barriers against any supposed Alien visitation, are of course time and distance.

Edited April 13, 2021 by beecee

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Juswanderin said:

the initial post is more of a conspiracy of why the ufo would be kept a secret, why aliens would be the driver, and how it could be manipulated to obtain power. 

You do know that the National Enquirer and QAnon are not valid news sources reporting credible trustworthy information, right?

[Alex_Krycek]

On 4/3/2021 at 8:53 PM, Moontanman said:

I really don't know what to make of this... I had assumed all was said and done about this subject. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/04/01/we-need-talk-about-ufos-again/

There was an interesting article in Forbes a while back about a physicist named Salvatore Cezar Pais who claims to have developed advanced aerospace technologies capable of unprecedented speeds and maneuverability, which could possibly explain the recent UFO sightings reported in the NY Times and other media outlets.

Excerpt:  (Forbes)

Dr. Pais’ fusion device is among a handful of outlandish technologies dubbed “The UFO patents” that have, in some shape or form, been pursued by the U.S. Navy.

He has been employed by the Pentagon for decades. And this isn’t the first patent filed in his name, and all of them appear centered around what he calls the Pais Effect. Dr. Pais posits that by controlling the accelerated spin or vibration of electrically charged matter, high energy electromagnetic fields can be produced.
Source:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielcohen/2021/02/08/what-is-behind-the-us-navys-ufo-fusion-energy-patent/?sh=49d9c5bd4733

Excerpt:  (Vice News)

One of Pais and the Navy’s patents described what the propulsion system and fusion drive would be used for—a “hybrid aerospace-underwater craft.” According to the patent, the craft could travel land, sea, and outer space at incredible speeds. Other patents invented by Pais and filed by the Navy include a “high temperature superconductor,” a “electromagnetic field generator,” and a “high frequency gravitational wave generator.”

Source:  https://www.vice.com/en/article/4adpv9/us-navy-has-patents-on-tech-it-says-will-engineer-the-fabric-of-reality

More on Pais at IEEE:  https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/author/37087084137

[Juswanderin]

5 hours ago, iNow said:

You do know that the National Enquirer and QAnon are not valid news sources reporting credible trustworthy information, right?

Idk what QAnon is. You can look up the info I shared yourself. See if I was lying 

[beecee]

44 minutes ago, Juswanderin said:

Idk what QAnon is. You can look up the info I shared yourself. See if I was lying 

Try reading more reputable material. The Internet is full of junk waiting for impressionable people to start ooohing and ahhhing, 

Here's one...

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by beecee

[swansont]

9 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

A confident and conclusive statement...based on what?

The report did not claim they were aliens. They aren't aliens until someone conclusively proves they are. 

 

Quote

Quite a fascinating documentary was released back in 2020 called "The Phenomenon", directed by James Fox.  Makes a very compelling case that Earth has and is being visited by some unknown intelligence.  

Compelling is in the eye of the beholder. 

Quote

Personally I think it's extremely naive to conclude that in our universe another intelligent species would not develop the means of interstellar travel before us.  An anthropocentric bias, so to speak.  Modern day geo-centrism.  

Nobody has claimed that this is the case. A straw man, so to speak.

10 hours ago, Juswanderin said:

I watched a military documentary where Americans claimed that when we invaded Germany we found the scientist and an anti gravity flying device. (UFO) they claimed we captured scientists (facts) and brought them to America where they would show us how it worked (who knows) Within a few years we had the start of ufo sightings. 

An interesting correlation, but probably not for the reason you are implying. Instead of seeing e.g. ghosts when they saw a shimmering light, people started seeing flying saucers, because that's a name they could put to the unexplained sightings.

5 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Excerpt:  (Forbes)

Dr. Pais’ fusion device is among a handful of outlandish technologies dubbed “The UFO patents” that have, in some shape or form, been pursued by the U.S. Navy.

A patent does not mean that such a device has been built, or guarantees that it works in the way envisioned.

[StringJunky]

11 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Personally I think it's extremely naive to conclude that in our universe another intelligent species would not develop the means of interstellar travel before us.  An anthropocentric bias, so to speak.  Modern day geo-centrism.  

It is reasonable, I think, to think life of some form  exists elsewhere, but just a WAG to conclude they can travel between stars. The rate of evolution may limit how far an organism can develop at this point, anywhere. You work with the physics you know... you are ssuming they have near-luminal travel nailed as well.

Edited April 13, 2021 by StringJunky

[iNow]

3 hours ago, Juswanderin said:

See if I was lying 

You don't have to be intentionally misrepresenting the truth in order to be sharing falsehoods and fictions. Sometimes, you're just wrong and/or misguided.

[Alex_Krycek]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

The report did not claim they were aliens. They aren't aliens until someone conclusively proves they are. 

You conclusively stated that they aren't aliens.  That's not a logical position.  While remaining agnostic on the subject is logical, concluding that something doesn't exist out of hand isn't logical.   The only thing we can logically say is "we don't know".  

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Compelling is in the eye of the beholder. 

Obviously.  But in order to make that judgement, one must suspend belief and observe new evidence first, not preemptively dismiss it.

3 hours ago, swansont said:

A patent does not mean that such a device has been built, or guarantees that it works in the way envisioned.

Well yeah, of course it doesn't.  However it is an interesting line of inquiry for those seriously pursuing this subject.

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

You conclusively stated that they aren't aliens.  That's not a logical position. 

You’re ignoring the context of the post, which was paraphrasing what the article was saying.

And I conclusively stated the article is saying that nobody was asserting they were aliens

2 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

 

While remaining agnostic on the subject is logical, concluding that something doesn't exist out of hand isn't logical.   The only thing we can logically say is "we don't know".  

And if you admit you don’t know, you can’t conclude they are aliens. And yet that wasn’t accepted as being true earlier in the thread.

 

2 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Well yeah, of course it doesn't.  However it is an interesting line of inquiry for those seriously pursuing this subject.

If you pursue it here, however, you don’t get a pass on scientific rigor.

[Alex_Krycek]

14 minutes ago, swansont said:

If you pursue it here, however, you don’t get a pass on scientific rigor.

Mr. Pais already has a peer reviewed paper outlining his theories on a Plasma Compression Fusion Device on IEEE.org.  

Anyone who wants to assess the veracity of his ideas can view it here:  https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/8871349

17 minutes ago, swansont said:

And if you admit you don’t know, you can’t conclude they are aliens. And yet that wasn’t accepted as being true earlier in the thread.

I didn't conclude that they were aliens - that's merely one of several possibilities (advanced tech being one of the others).  I tend to think aliens are the more likely possibility, but I don't conclude that.  The question remains open.  

[Moontanman]

14 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

A confident and conclusive statement...based on what?

Quite a fascinating documentary was released back in 2020 called "The Phenomenon", directed by James Fox.  Makes a very compelling case that Earth has and is being visited by some unknown intelligence.  

Personally I think it's extremely naive to conclude that in our universe another intelligent species would not develop the means of interstellar travel before us.  An anthropocentric bias, so to speak.  Modern day geo-centrism.  

Any chance you have a link to that documentary? 

[Alex_Krycek]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It is reasonable, I think, to think life of some form  exists elsewhere, but just a WAG to conclude they can travel between stars. The rate of evolution may limit how far an organism can develop at this point, anywhere. You work with the physics you know... you are ssuming they have near-luminal travel nailed as well.

It all depends on how one views the Drake equation.  Originally Carl Sagan cast aspersions on the idea that any two intelligent civilizations could exist simultaneously.  However, with SETI estimating the current number of habitable planets in our galaxy at 300 million, I think the odds of intelligent civilizations existing simultaneously are much higher than Sagan predicted.  

Regarding near speed of light travel or unknown physics, nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman demonstrated that practical interstellar travel can be accomplished using known physics, primarily a nuclear fusion reactor.  Of course that wouldn't be "near speed of light" but it would get us from point A to point B. 

6 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Any chance you have a link to that documentary? 

Yes, here it is:

https://www.amazon.com/Phenomenon-John-Podesta/dp/B08HR9BVNM/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+phenomenon&qid=1618328526&sr=8-1

Edited April 13, 2021 by Alex_Krycek

[Moontanman]

12 hours ago, beecee said:

Life certainly without doubt exists in this Universe.😉

We have no evidence that any such device is possible, nor whether it exists. Whereas with life beyond Earth, the general logic that it should exist is of course the near infinite extent of the universe, the near infinite content of the universe [stars, planets] and the stuff of life being everywhere we look. If conditions are right, evolution of life may have taked place elsewhere. Certainly not the extraordinary evidence we would like to 100% convince us, but plenty of reason.

UFO's are just that...UFO's with the emphasis on "Unidentified"

 

Of course out of the thousands of reported UFO's, most have been scientifically explained, leaving a small percentage remaining as unidentified. Venus, comet/meteor, trickery/skull duggery, illusions, mirages, weather phenomena, sprites clouds etc etc......or yes, even Aliens. But essentially just unidentified.

The two biggest barriers against any supposed Alien visitation, are of course time and distance.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_studies_of_UFOs

 

Category/Case Quality	All	Excellent	Good	Doubtful	Poor
Astronomical	22%	24%	23%	19%	23%
Aircraft	22%	19%	22%	25%	16%
Balloon	15%	12%	17%	17%	13%
Light phenomena	2.2%	.9%	2.4%	2.9%	1.1%
Birds	1.0%	0.9%	1.0%	1.2%	0.7%
Clouds, dust, etc.	0.4%	0%	1.0%	0.4%	0%
Psychological	2.0%	0%	0.5%	3.3%	3.3%
Other	5%	5%	5%	5%	6%
Insufficient information	9%	4%	4%	14%	21%
Unknown origin	22%	33%	25%	13%	17%

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It is reasonable, I think, to think life of some form  exists elsewhere, but just a WAG to conclude they can travel between stars. The rate of evolution may limit how far an organism can develop at this point, anywhere. You work with the physics you know... you are assuming they have near-luminal travel nailed as well.

I'm not that sure near light speed travel has been suggested or assumed here so far. 

12 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

It all depends on how one views the Drake equation.  Originally Carl Sagan cast aspersions on the idea that any two intelligent civilizations could exist simultaneously.  However, with SETI estimating the current number of habitable planets in our galaxy at 300 million, I think the odds of intelligent civilizations existing simultaneously are much higher than Sagan predicted.  

Regarding near speed of light travel or unknown physics, nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman demonstrated that practical interstellar travel can be accomplished using known physics, primarily a nuclear fusion reactor.  Of course that wouldn't be "near speed of light" but it would get us from point A to point B. 

Yes, here it is:

https://www.amazon.com/Phenomenon-John-Podesta/dp/B08HR9BVNM/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+phenomenon&qid=1618328526&sr=8-1

Thank you.

[StringJunky]

34 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_studies_of_UFOs

 

Category/Case Quality	All	Excellent	Good	Doubtful	Poor
Astronomical	22%	24%	23%	19%	23%
Aircraft	22%	19%	22%	25%	16%
Balloon	15%	12%	17%	17%	13%
Light phenomena	2.2%	.9%	2.4%	2.9%	1.1%
Birds	1.0%	0.9%	1.0%	1.2%	0.7%
Clouds, dust, etc.	0.4%	0%	1.0%	0.4%	0%
Psychological	2.0%	0%	0.5%	3.3%	3.3%
Other	5%	5%	5%	5%	6%
Insufficient information	9%	4%	4%	14%	21%
Unknown origin	22%	33%	25%	13%	17%

I'm not that sure near light speed travel has been suggested or assumed here so far. 

But it's necessary technology for interstellar distances to be traversed in reasonable time.

[Moontanman]

10 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

But it's necessary technology for interstellar distances to be traversed in reasonable time.

Depends on what you mean by a reasonable time, the slow boat idea is still viable, in fact near light speed velocities brings on problems with encountering dust and even atoms. The destruction and radiation brought on by such encounters could very well make near light speed travel problematic.   

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Depends on what you mean by a reasonable time, the slow boat idea is still viable, in fact near light speed velocities brings on problems with encountering dust and even atoms. The destruction and radiation brought on by such encounters could very well make near light speed travel problematic.   

Theoretical range for nuclear propulsion is 150-350 km/s*. Did a quick calc for travelling to Proxima Centauri at the maximum speed and turned up a figure of around 5815 years. I wouldn't call that a reasonable time, and that's with technology that's still a pipe-dream. That's just 4.37 LYRS covered.

* https://www.iter.org/newsline/-/3303

Edited April 13, 2021 by StringJunky

[Moontanman]

31 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Theoretical range for nuclear propulsion is 150-350 km/s*. Did a quick calc for travelling to Proxima Centauri at the maximum speed and turned up a figure of around 5815 years. I wouldn't call that a reasonable time, and that's with technology that's still a pipe-dream. That's just 4.37 LYRS covered.

* https://www.iter.org/newsline/-/3303

Yes, travel times are more likely to be in several tens of thousands of years at much slower speeds. This is the basis for my own dog and pony show about aliens and planets but once humans begin to live in artificial habitats planets will not longer be necessary or even desirable. Star travel via slow moving habitats would result in colonising things like asteroid belts and kuiper belt objects or, if it exists, oort clouds for raw materials. Planets would no longer be needed and would only be objects of study, a life bearing planet might be interesting enough to study but colonising a planet might be avoided for many reasons.   

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Mr. Pais already has a peer reviewed paper outlining his theories on a Plasma Compression Fusion Device on IEEE.org.  

Anyone who wants to assess the veracity of his ideas can view it here:  https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/8871349

It's fusion, which nobody has yet made work. One (or in this case literally you) really can't say he has "developed" this technology.

 

2 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I didn't conclude that they were aliens - that's merely one of several possibilities (advanced tech being one of the others).  I tend to think aliens are the more likely possibility, but I don't conclude that.  The question remains open.  

It's the generic "you" and my objection was that people are suggesting that conclusion. Your personal view is irrelevant, as my original comment predated your contribution to the thread. But "the question remains open" is too forgiving. If you see hoofprints, you do not say the question is open as to whether zebras (or aliens) made the prints, if you are in North America. The question is not open unless you actually have some evidence that leads you in that direction. You go with the best science available, which is horses.

 

54 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Depends on what you mean by a reasonable time, the slow boat idea is still viable 

Based on what definition of viable?

viable: capable of working successfully, feasible

How can you say something is capable of working successfully if it's never been shown to work successfully? (feasible is even worse; possible to do easily or conveniently - nothing easy or convenient about it)