Time to talk about UFO's or now as the military calls them UAP's?

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Based on what definition of viable?

viable: capable of working successfully, feasible

How can you say something is capable of working successfully if it's never been shown to work successfully? (feasible is even worse; possible to do easily or conveniently - nothing easy or convenient about it)

 

Ok, point taken, how about "within the realm of possibilities"? 

[beecee]

6 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

 The only thing we can logically say is "we don't know".  

And that is my position with regards to a small number. And taking that position means I'm not going to get all excited over any "doubtful" visitations.

Two points I would like to make...I would dearly love for evidence to be found of some form of extra terrestrial life before I kick the bucket...no matter how basic or fundamental.eg: microbial. Second point casts doubt in my mind that we have been visited, in that such species would be far in advance of us, so as to understand that we are not analogous to ants on an anthill, so why the continued flittering in and flittering out again, with the ocassional anal probing of some poor out of the way individual. Obviously they would not really "want" for anything either, as anything here is rather plentiful throughout the galaxy/universe.

Also interesting is that a good proportion of reputable scientists believe that the evidence for extra terrestrial life is not that far away. I hope they are right.

6 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

 However it is an interesting line of inquiry for those seriously pursuing this subject.

I'm all for complete scientific inquiry into that percenatge that remain as UFO, obviously also as reported by reputable individuals and intrigueing and unexplained evidence that tend to support it. But also while not an expert in this area, I would have presumed that such inquiry/investigations have taken place.

6 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I didn't conclude that they were aliens - that's merely one of several possibilities (advanced tech being one of the others).  I tend to think aliens are the more likely possibility, but I don't conclude that.  The question remains open.  

The known existence of any extra terrestrial life, would answer probably the greatest, most asked, most extraordinary question, ever asked by mankind. As such I see it logical to conclude and align with Carl Sagan's approach that such extraordinary claims, require equally extraordinary evidence. eg: an Alien artifact, some Alien excreta, Alien mechanical part, etc etc.

Edited April 13, 2021 by beecee

[Moontanman]

2 minutes ago, beecee said:

I'm all for complete scientific inquiry into that percentage that remain as UFO, obviously also as reported by reputable individuals and intriguing and unexplained evidence that tend to support it. But also while not an expert in this area, I would have presumed that such inquiry/investigations have taken place.

 

Here is where most of my problems with the status quo come in. There have been some private studies by scientists but since the two main ones I am aware of suggested there is something to study at least but were dismissed out of hand by many in the scientific community due to the conclusion. Not as far as I or others have been able to show due to the evidence or lack thereof. J. Allen Hynek is probably the most famous scientist who supported the idea of extraordinary technology from place else. He started out as a debunker for the USAF but ended up, if not a believer, at least thinking something extraordinary was going on. 

Some members of the science community pretty much poo pooed the entire idea out of hand which I always thought was somewhat less than scientific. Many scientists from this group participated in ridiculing anyone who suggested otherwise. 

One study, The Condon Report, is thought by some to be the definitive study on UFOs but others cite problems with the methodology of the people involved, see Low Memo. 

 

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condon_Committee

Low memo controversy[edit]

In July 1967, James E. McDonald, a confirmed believer in the validity of UFO sightings, learned from a Committee member about a memo Low had written on August 9, 1966, in which he reassured two University of Colorado administrators that they could expect the study to demonstrate that UFO observations had no basis in reality.^[15] McDonald, after locating a copy of the memo in the project's open files, wrote to Condon, quoting a few lines from it.^[2]

In response to the memo, on April 30, 1968, NICAP severed its ties with the Committee and Keyhoe circulated copies of Low's memo. Press coverage included an article in the May 1968 issue of Look, "Flying Saucer Fiasco", that presented interviews with Saunders and Levine, detailed the controversy, and described the project as a "$500,000 trick."^[16] Condon responded that the article contained "falsehoods and misrepresentations."^[17] Scientific and technical journals reported the controversy.^[18] Representative J. Edward Roush said the Look article raised "grave doubts as to the scientific profundity and objectivity of the project."^[19] He held a hearing dominated by critics of the Project.^[20] Low resigned from the Project in May 1968.^[21]

Some later critics of the Committee's work saw little reason to make much of the memo. Committee member David Saunders wrote that "to present Low as a plotter or conspirator is unfair and hardly accurate."^[22] Project investigator Roy Craig's later wrote that the memo did not trouble him because Condon had not known of the Low memo for eighteen months and it did not reflect his views.^[23] Condon wrote in the Project's Final Report that the memo's description of the Project as emphasizing the "psychology and sociology" of those who report UFO sightings showed how completely Low misunderstood the Project when he wrote the memo.^[24]

^{There have been scientists who supported the idea of UFOs as extraordinary and others who do not.} 

^{My own take on this is that a unbiased scientific study has yet to be done.} 

[beecee]

17 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

^{There have been scientists who supported the idea of UFOs as extraordinary and others who do not.} 

^{My own take on this is that a unbiased scientific study has yet to be done.} 

Perhaps by some. And perhaps, the facts that so many reported sightings, kidnappings, anal probings etc, by less then reputable sources, could have "biased" the view/s of some scientists. 

Again, personally I have not made a study or really researched any of this subject, but two cases do seem extraordinary without any real explanation....the Nimitz tic tac one, and another in Africa somewhere involving some school children, the landing of some craft and emerging of little green men. What are your views on these two? and do you have any other worthy of unbiased total scientific inquiry?

[Alex_Krycek]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

and another in Africa somewhere involving some school children, the landing of some craft and emerging of little green men.

That encounter happened at the Ariel School, in Ruwa, Zimbabwe, September 1994.  It's featured at the end of that documentary, The Phenomenon, I referenced, with interviews from all those involved (staff and former students).

2 hours ago, beecee said:

Second point casts doubt in my mind that we have been visited, in that such species would be far in advance of us, so as to understand that we are not analogous to ants on an anthill, so why the continued flittering in and flittering out again, with the ocassional anal probing of some poor out of the way individual.

What would you think of humanity, were you an outside observer?  On the one hand we're a vicious and primitive species that engages in never ending tribal warfare in the most cruel fashion; a bunch of petty apes exercising power over one another to satiate our egoistic shortcomings.  On the other hand we're capable of great scientific, artistic, and technological triumphs - including the creation of nuclear weapons, which we've actually deployed countless times.

That, in short, is a dangerous and unpredictable species, despite whatever positive qualities we may possess.  Dangerous and unpredictable species require observation.  

2 hours ago, beecee said:

Obviously they would not really "want" for anything either, as anything here is rather plentiful throughout the galaxy/universe.

 

Which, if they exist, could be why they let us "live and let kill".  Another possibility though is they have an interest in Earth, not us.  Earth is a real gem - replete with heavy metals of all kinds, home to an abundance of species (flora and fauna).  We live on paradise, basically, and we're destroying it as fast as we're able to. 

Just the other day Japan announced it was dumping more than 1 million cubic metres of irradiated water from Fukishima into the Pacfic Ocean.  An intelligent species that observed such actions from afar would have to conclude we're a deeply ignorant and destructive species with respect to our own environment.

 

[Moontanman]

2 hours ago, beecee said:

Perhaps by some. And perhaps, the facts that so many reported sightings, kidnappings, anal probings etc, by less then reputable sources, could have "biased" the view/s of some scientists. 

Again, personally I have not made a study or really researched any of this subject, but two cases do seem extraordinary without any real explanation....the Nimitz tic tac one, and another in Africa somewhere involving some school children, the landing of some craft and emerging of little green men. What are your views on these two? and do you have any other worthy of unbiased total scientific inquiry?

The Zimbabwe school kids report is puzzling for sure, I've read attempts to explain it as mass hysteria or school kids fantasies but such explanations would seem to fall short so far. 

The Tic Tac is puzzling but it has an air of some sort of military test more than extraordinary technology to me.

The 1952 Washington, DC sighting is, I think, one of the most inexplicable sightings and it also showcases the dishonesty of the military at the time in how they tried to explain it way with things like temperature inversions when in fact it had multiple independent eyewitnesses, multiple independent radars, Air Force pilots, interaction with air force jets, commercial jets, and even had the president demanding to know what was above the white house. 

The Coyne sighting as it is known was seen by the crew of a military helicopter and people on the ground and remains inexplicable as well. 

The Japan Airlines sighting over Alaska is yet another interesting sighting and is still debated today as to the particulars. Considerable disagreement over how the government reacted, differing accounts of the sighting, and a supposed cover up make this one interesting but also confusing. 

[Juswanderin]

22 hours ago, beecee said:

Life certainly without doubt exists in this Universe.😉

We have no evidence that any such device is possible, nor whether it exists. Whereas with life beyond Earth, the general logic that it *should* exist. *If*conditions are right.  *Certainly not the extraordinary evidence* we would like to 100% convince us, but plenty of reason.

So you are calling a theory that I brought up wrong while your theory is based off of if, should and certainly not extraordinary evidence... it is certainly not. It is no evidence. You are hoping that since we have a lot of planets there should be life... you just spice up the words to sound better with 0 evidence. 
 

15 hours ago, beecee said:

Try reading more reputable material. The Internet is full of junk waiting for impressionable people to start ooohing and ahhhing,

Another degrading claim backed by nothing. So the US never invaded Germany? Operation paperclip never happened? 1942 wasn’t our first official ufo sighting? It wasn’t a “battle over LA” ? In 1945, same time as operation paperclip, the US didn’t have an increase of sightings?  Those are facts. “I know nothing” *socrates would be a good quote for you to think about so you are not so closed minded. If you are going to degrade back it up with facts please. 

[beecee]

4 hours ago, Juswanderin said:

So you are calling a theory that I brought up wrong while your theory is based off of if, should and certainly not extraordinary evidence... it is certainly not. It is no evidence. You are hoping that since we have a lot of planets there should be life... you just spice up the words to sound better with 0 evidence.  

Perhaps you should go back and read the relevent post again. The facts that the universe is near infinite in extent[just a phrase  of mine, you can say extraordinarily large beyond any comprehension if you prefer] , and near infinte in content [numbers of stars and planets also extraordinarily large beyond comprehension] along with the facts that the stuff of life is everywhere we look, gives us every reason to believe abiogenesis should/could have also taken place elsewhere, off this Earth. Those are facts that have plenty of reputable scientists accepting that we are "probably  "not alone". None of that is the extraordinary evidence required to validate for certain, that life exists elsewhere. We don't know. In actual fact this is what I actually posted  

9 hours ago, beecee said:

Most scientists understand that life, at various degrees of evolution, would more then likely exist beyond this Earth. At the same time, those scientists understand that at this time, we still have no evidence of any life off this Earth, or any past visitations of ETL. 

A great man once said, "extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence"

If that contradicts your hypothesis [not a theory] then so be it.

4 hours ago, Juswanderin said:

Another degrading claim backed by nothing. So the US never invaded Germany? Operation paperclip never happened? 1942 wasn’t our first official ufo sighting? It wasn’t a “battle over LA” ? In 1945, same time as operation paperclip, the US didn’t have an increase of sightings?  Those are facts. “I know nothing” *socrates would be a good quote for you to think about so you are not so closed minded. If you are going to degrade back it up with facts please. 

Not closed minded, simply scientifically minded and reafirming what Carl Sagan said. "extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence".

And of course as I also said, the small percentage that remain as unexplained, are just that unexplained and could be any number of scenarios, as I also mentioned, including, yes, Aliens. But guess what? We dont really know.

PS: I also in general reject conspiracies and those pushing conspiracies, and reject any nonsense of an anti gravity machine as it also lacks any evidence to support that claim.

Edited April 14, 2021 by beecee

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Discussion of aliens has been split

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/124844-aliens-from-space-split-from-time-to-talk-about-ufos-or-now-as-the-military-calls-them-uaps/

 

 

[Alex_Krycek]

There's a report due out later this year about these UFO / UAPs, thanks to a clause in the first COVID Relief Bill.  It will be interesting to see what information is disclosed.  

Source: 

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/299157

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/10/us/ufo-report-emergency-relief-bill-trnd/index.html

Excerpt:

A stipulation in the bill’s Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Years 2021 mandates, under the heading “Advanced Aerial Threats,” that the director of national intelligence and the secretary of defence draft a report outlining everything the American government knows on the subject of UFOs.

The report must be made available to the pubic, according to the stipulation, and must include details analysis of the UFO phenomena, including data and intelligence from the Office of Naval Intelligence, the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force and the FBI.

Former intelligence director John Ratcliffe said in an interview with Fox News host Maria Bartiromo last week that when the government report on UFOs is released it “will be big.”

“Frankly, there are a lot more sightings than have been made public,” Ratcliffe said.

“The report could document sightings from all over the world,” Ratcliffe said. “There are instances where we don’t have good explanations for some of the things that we’ve seen… And when that information becomes declassified, I’ll be able to talk a little bit more about that.”

Edited April 16, 2021 by Alex_Krycek

[Ten oz]

On 4/13/2021 at 5:08 PM, Moontanman said:

Some members of the science community pretty much poo pooed the entire idea out of hand which I always thought was somewhat less than scientific. Many scientists from this group participated in ridiculing anyone who suggested otherwise. 

Criticizing the scientific community broadly does not lend any credibility to J. Allen Hynek. Proof of alien life on Earth needs to exist on its own merits. Being skeptical of individuals is not evidence of anything.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Ten oz
Grammer

[Alex_Krycek]

A few more recent articles from The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/16/pentagon-ufos-leaked-photos-uap

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/13/cia-thousands-documents-ufos-cache

[beecee]

While searching for the previously recommended video, I found the following discussions on the possible and probably likely explanation of many UFO's/UAP

Nice little video worth watching....

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/pyramid-ufos-in-night-vision-footage-maybe-bokeh.11695/

and the following lengthy article particularly with relation to the USA....and entitled..."Adversary Drones Are Spying On The U.S. And The Pentagon Acts Like They're UFOs"

at...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...entagon-acts-like-theyre-ufos?utm_source=digg

I'm in no position to really judge the veracity of the second article or the many links within that link, I'll let others do that...plus apologies if this is seen to be in the wrong thread....a kindly mod may chose to move to a more appropriate one if needed.

Edited April 17, 2021 by beecee

[Alex_Krycek]

Interesting piece about Canadian pilots seeing numerous UFOs:

https://www.vice.com/amp/en/article/z3xewj/air-canada-westjet-porter-pilots-ufo-sightings

By combing through thousands of reports in a government flight incident database, VICE World News has uncovered dozens of recent UFO sightings from Canadian and international airlines.

 

[Moontanman]

On 4/17/2021 at 5:58 PM, beecee said:

While searching for the previously recommended video, I found the following discussions on the possible and probably likely explanation of many UFO's/UAP

Nice little video worth watching....

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/pyramid-ufos-in-night-vision-footage-maybe-bokeh.11695/

and the following lengthy article particularly with relation to the USA....and entitled..."Adversary Drones Are Spying On The U.S. And The Pentagon Acts Like They're UFOs"

at...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...entagon-acts-like-theyre-ufos?utm_source=digg

I'm in no position to really judge the veracity of the second article or the many links within that link, I'll let others do that...plus apologies if this is seen to be in the wrong thread....a kindly mod may chose to move to a more appropriate one if needed.

From your last link: I agree that these UAPs seem to be drones of some type, I figured they were our own drones testing our own defenses and not telling the agencies who were being trolled.

  

Quote

Before I move forward, I must state that just because I believe the evidence is compelling that many of the bizarre encounters with mysterious objects in the sky as of late, and especially those that the U.S. military is experiencing, emanate from peer-state competitors, not another dimension or another solar system, there are certainly well-documented cases of seemingly unexplainable events that have nothing to do with this type of capability. In other words, our conclusions do not come even close to answering the question of UAPs or UFOs as a whole, especially in terms of the many unexplained incidents in decades past. What they do is highlight an alarming new capability set and tactics that seem to have been allowed to be exploited with little response for years while the Pentagon scratched its head and shrugged, or even worse, turned largely a blind eye toward it. 

This is also important: 

And that brings us to one of the biggest problems with this topic, as a whole—people expect one blanket and grand explanation for the entire UFO mystery to one day emerge. This is flawed thinking at its core. This issue is clearly one with multiple explanations due to the wide range of events that have occurred under a huge number of circumstances. This thinking must be changed as it limits our ability to solve some mysteries in the hopes of coming up with some fantastical monolithic explanation for every related mystery. So, accepting that there is likely a wide array of explanations to this notoriously abused topic will be absolutely key to successfully studying it and destigmatizing it in our culture, and especially within U.S. military and intelligence circles.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Moontanman

[beecee]

39 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

 This is also important: 

And that brings us to one of the biggest problems with this topic, as a whole—people expect one blanket and grand explanation for the entire UFO mystery to one day emerge. This is flawed thinking at its core. This issue is clearly one with multiple explanations due to the wide range of events that have occurred under a huge number of circumstances. This thinking must be changed as it limits our ability to solve some mysteries in the hopes of coming up with some fantastical monolithic explanation for every related mystery. So, accepting that there is likely a wide array of explanations to this notoriously abused topic will be absolutely key to successfully studying it and destigmatizing it in our culture, and especially within U.S. military and intelligence circles.

It certainly is! Important that is. As I have often said, some of these [those with no obvious or lilely mundane explanation] should be investigated under the auspices of the scientific methodology.

Let me say Moontanman, it is rather pleasing to discuss this subject with you, and the reasonable position you seem to have taken. Far better then discussing it with what I term the "nutty brigade"

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, beecee said:

It certainly is! Important that is. As I have often said, some of these [those with no obvious or lilely mundane explanation] should be investigated under the auspices of the scientific methodology.

Let me say Moontanman, it is rather pleasing to discuss this subject with you, and the reasonable position you seem to have taken. Far better then discussing it with what I term the "nutty brigade"

Thanks, lots of nuts out there, on UFO sites I am accused of being a government shill. 

[beecee]

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Thanks, lots of nuts out there, on UFO sites I am accused of being a government shill. 

And even on some other so called science forums.

[Moontanman]

48 minutes ago, beecee said:

And even on some other so called science forums.

My first forum "Hypography" is now almost nothing but nut jobs. Hard to even read many posts, they contain so much nonsense it almost funny. They need swansonT for a few months...🤪

[iNow]

5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

My first forum "Hypography" is now almost nothing but nut jobs. Hard to even read many posts, they contain so much nonsense it almost funny. They need swansonT for a few months...🤪

I imagine Tormud, Buffy, and Craig are all long gone by now  

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

I imagine Tormud, Buffy, and Craig are all long gone by now  

Yes this would seem to be true from my short visits to the forum.

 

[exchemist]

17 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Yes this would seem to be true from my short visits to the forum.

 

Yes it is now just about entirely populated with nutcases and cranks- and not even interesting cranks, at that.😄 

[Alex_Krycek]

On 4/18/2021 at 4:58 AM, beecee said:

While searching for the previously recommended video, I found the following discussions on the possible and probably likely explanation of many UFO's/UAP

Nice little video worth watching....

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/pyramid-ufos-in-night-vision-footage-maybe-bokeh.11695/

and the following lengthy article particularly with relation to the USA....and entitled..."Adversary Drones Are Spying On The U.S. And The Pentagon Acts Like They're UFOs"

at...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...entagon-acts-like-theyre-ufos?utm_source=digg

I'm in no position to really judge the veracity of the second article or the many links within that link, I'll let others do that...plus apologies if this is seen to be in the wrong thread....a kindly mod may chose to move to a more appropriate one if needed.

In my view, "adversary drones" spying on the US is the least likely scenario.  These type of events/craft have been reported since the mid 1940s.  Further, with the competitive advantage that the US maintains in terms of military innovation and hardware, I seriously doubt that any adversary would possess technology that we don't know about, or can't respond to.  Which leaves two other possibilities:  it's our hardware being tested, or it's some other phenomena.  

[Alex_Krycek]

Discovered an interesting group called the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies.  Looks like they have a conference coming up.  https://scu.regfox.com/2021-scu-aapc

Here's their twitter feed:

https://mobile.twitter.com/explorescu

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Alex_Krycek

[beecee]

https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Prelimary-Assessment-UAP-20210625.pdf