dark matter and dark energy

[hoola]

if dark energy has more than one energy level, it would have a tendency to congregate the lower energy  points of space to areas embedded within the overall field of predominant higher energy. The higher positive forces of that field would congregate the lower energies, making those regions attractive to matter as it is carried along with the gradient of higher energy to lower. This could mimic the appearance of dark matter, and it not be a particle, but simply areas of "weak space".  If this model has any validity, a possible test of what might be to do a long term casimir experiment, in that, if a region of "dark matter" goes through the test apparatus, the casimir force should necessarily show less force, and then when the region has shifted off, the results should return to the previous normal value.

since there is no edit button anymore, I would like to add that the casimir experiment would have to be modified somehow, as if the region of weak space is on both sides of the plates, it is questionable if the readings would change from normal space being on both sides. Ideally, it would have to be arranged so that a proposed weak space region would have to be between the plates and normal space outside them in order to gain a direct picture of the two energy level differences. However, a momentary signal may be apparent with a normal test setup. As the region approaches, and the plates are impinged upon,  the gradient between the two levels might perhaps offer a momentary shift in level, causing a situation that has more low energy space between the plates that on the outside as the region transits into, then out of, the test area. One plate would necessarily be affected first, allowing some info on the direction of the transit path.

[Bufofrog]

5 hours ago, hoola said:

if dark energy has more than one energy level, it would have a tendency to congregate the lower energy  points of space to areas embedded within the overall field of predominant higher energy. The higher positive forces of that field would congregate the lower energies, making those regions attractive to matter as it is carried along with the gradient of higher energy to lower. This could mimic the appearance of dark matter, and it not be a particle, but simply areas of "weak space". 

I don't see how dark energy could cause an attractive force in some areas of space and cause a repelling force in other areas of space.  Why would the attractive force only be seen where there is matter?

The edit button is in a pull down located at the 3 dots in the upper right corner of you post.

[swansont]

6 hours ago, hoola said:

if dark energy has more than one energy level,

Energy doesn't have energy levels. Composite systems with attractive interactions do.

 

6 hours ago, hoola said:

it would have a tendency to congregate the lower energy  points of space to areas embedded within the overall field of predominant higher energy. The higher positive forces of that field would congregate the lower energies, making those regions attractive to matter as it is carried along with the gradient of higher energy to lower. This could mimic the appearance of dark matter, and it not be a particle, but simply areas of "weak space".  If this model has any validity, a possible test of what might be to do a long term casimir experiment, in that, if a region of "dark matter" goes through the test apparatus, the casimir force should necessarily show less force, and then when the region has shifted off, the results should return to the previous normal value.

since there is no edit button anymore, I would like to add that the casimir experiment would have to be modified somehow, as if the region of weak space is on both sides of the plates, it is questionable if the readings would change from normal space being on both sides. Ideally, it would have to be arranged so that a proposed weak space region would have to be between the plates and normal space outside them in order to gain a direct picture of the two energy level differences. However, a momentary signal may be apparent with a normal test setup. As the region approaches, and the plates are impinged upon,  the gradient between the two levels might perhaps offer a momentary shift in level, causing a situation that has more low energy space between the plates that on the outside as the region transits into, then out of, the test area. One plate would necessarily be affected first, allowing some info on the direction of the transit path.

How big would these shifts be in a Casimir-type experiment?

[hoola]

Why can't dark energy have some variations, and if it does, how would one know?    As I understand, the casimir test measures a reduction of forces as the region is restricted by the close plates. The test outputs would drop as the less propulsive space would enter the plates from one side. The drop would be temporary, and only offer a difference signal until the weak space region envelops the entire structure, thus offering no differences of pressures with which to gain a signal from. So, it would be a weak transit signal, showing only that a small blip in the readings occurred. This blip would appear again as the cloud of weak space leaves the apparatus, when the plates would again read a small momentary differential of pressure between the insides and one exterior surface of one plate. The signal would be very low and momentary, and and would be best done in space, perhaps near the sun or jupiter, as their high gravity would have the most "dark matter" within their local regions. Perhaps a series of plates instead of only 2, in a long progression, and as the cloud moves through the test area, as indicated with the timing and duration of the blips between numerous plates, showing not only direction of transit, but velocity. Any output would be likely to be very weak and subject to noise and the cold of space might offer a general reduction in thermal noise. I wouldn't expect that any results would be available on an earth bound lab.

Edited April 11, 2021 by hoola

[hoola]

as to your statement:   "(dark) energy doesn't have energy levels. Composite systems with attractive interactions do."  Virtual particles are composite systems, with each particle/antiparticle pair under first repulsive, then attractive interactions of a certain total duration.  Why not consider that the interaction periods are not identical between some pairs, then the force expression of pairs in the creation/annialation process would vary, allowing it's measured effect on the test to vary. I propose that the "waste product" of this process is what is termed dark energy and that force is proportional to the length of time of the interactions, due to inherent inefficiencies of this , or any physical process. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by hoola

[swansont]

17 minutes ago, hoola said:

as to your statement:   "(dark) energy doesn't have energy levels. Composite systems with attractive interactions do."  Virtual particles are composite systems, with each particle/antiparticle pair under first repulsive, then attractive interactions of a certain total duration.

They’re also virtual. 

Energy levels (as in atoms or nuclei) come about from bound states with, as I said, an attractive potential. 

Show the energy level derivation for dark energy. How do they come about?

17 minutes ago, hoola said:

  Why not consider that the interaction periods are not identical between some pairs, then the force expression of pairs in the creation/annialation process would vary,

The interaction period varies with the energy involved, such that the uncertainty principle is maintained.

17 minutes ago, hoola said:

allowing it's measured effect on the test to vary. I propose that the "waste product" of this process is what is termed dark energy and that force is proportional to the length of time of the interactions, due to inherent inefficiencies of this , or any physical process. 

What waste product? The particles annihilate.

[hoola]

 even though they are "virtual", they show up long enough to have a "real", albeit fleeting presence in the universe, or else the casimir experiment would not work. Doesn't any physical process have an inherent inefficiency? Why not these particle interactions?

Edited April 11, 2021 by hoola

[joigus]

As @swansont said, energy levels are a characteristic of bound states under an attractive potential. For all intents and purposes, you can assume energy levels so close to each other that considering them anything other than a continuum is pointless, IMO. Also, dark matter appears as a distribution of mass density that starts to be noticeable at the level of or well beyond galactic halos. I don't see how dark matter would have sizeable effects at Casimir-range scales. There probably are inhomogeneities, but they're about the size of intergalactic distances. And I don't understand the concept of "weak space."

[hoola]

weak space is what I propose instead of the term dark matter, as that is described to be composed of invisible particles that only exhibit gravitational effects on mass. I say that the inherent inefficiency of all physical process applies also to virtual particles as they are indeed "real" albeit for a brief instant of time . During the time that they are extant in the universe, they must obey it's laws, therefore is held to the inefficiency of physical process. Conservation of energy means that waste energy must show up, so why not as the dark energy. Weak space means simply that the particular point of space has a less energetic composite pair, implying a shorter duration of existence as compared to "normal" space, therefore produces less waste energy to show up as dark energy. This creates a pressure gradient between the normal space and the weak space regions, over time causing a sequestering of less dynamic points of space,  that produce these altered pairs as it's normal, repeating process. After a period of time, the pressure gradients would concentrate the weak space into areas embedded within normal space. Simple pressure gradient holds the weak space roughly intact.

Edited April 11, 2021 by hoola

[swansont]

1 hour ago, hoola said:

 even though they are "virtual", they show up long enough to have a "real", albeit fleeting presence in the universe, or else the casimir experiment would not work. Doesn't any physical process have an inherent inefficiency? Why not these particle interactions?

Yes, and there’s a way to calculate the effects (which is not just flinging crap at the wall to see if anything sticks) It’s also electromagnetic, not gravitational, so you wouldn’t have the right boundary condition to make a Casimir-type interaction.

Inefficiency is one thing, but conservation of properties is quite another; they involve symmetries and you have to show the symmetry being broken

[hoola]

to say the effects of the casimir test are electromagnetic in nature is not to say that they have nothing to do with gravitation. It seems to me that the "stretching of space" is accomplished within the virtual particle creation/annialation mechanism, and the duration of their brief existences has directly to do as to the "stretching" of the orbits of the pairs. The longer the pairs are kept separate mean more of an effect to the environment. The ultimate example of this is Hawking radiation, where particles are prevented from making the final step of the annialation process, therefore caused to persist as real particles.

[swansont]

15 minutes ago, hoola said:

to say the effects of the casimir test are electromagnetic in nature is not to say that they have nothing to do with gravitation.

Yes, actually. Nothing about gravity is present in the equations*; you are excluding electromagnetic modes in the calculation, which I did once upon a time, and I’m guessing you have not.

*this being a quantum mechanical effect, and gravity being classical, and also much, much weaker

Quote

It seems to me that the "stretching of space" is accomplished within the virtual particle creation/annialation mechanism, and the duration of their brief existences has directly to do as to the "stretching" of the orbits of the pairs. The longer the pairs are kept separate mean more of an effect to the environment.

The longer virtual particles survive the lower their energy. 

Quote

The ultimate example of this is Hawking radiation, where particles are prevented from making the final step of the annialation process, therefore caused to persist as real particles.

Hawking radiation is not the Casimir effect.

[hoola]

correct, but closely related via the pair mechanism behaviors in various settings.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, hoola said:

correct, but closely related via the pair mechanism behaviors in various settings.

Anything having to with QED or QCD qualifies by that criterion.

[hoola]

the longer virtual particles survive, the lower their energy?  does this mean that the energy is lowered to zero as it is all converted to matter as in the case of Hawking radiation?  Also, if the energy of long term survivors is less, so will the resultant minimum energy waste upon recombination, as in the source of dark energy idea, making it "weak space".

[swansont]

12 hours ago, hoola said:

the longer virtual particles survive, the lower their energy?  does this mean that the energy is lowered to zero as it is all converted to matter as in the case of Hawking radiation? 

Do the particles involved in Hawking radiation live for a long time?

 

12 hours ago, hoola said:

Also, if the energy of long term survivors is less, so will the resultant minimum energy waste upon recombination, as in the source of dark energy idea, making it "weak space".

You keep talking about energy waste without establishing that this is a thing. That would require a violation of energy conservation. Basing your idea on a perpetual motion mechanism is not a winning strategy.

 

 

[hoola]

yes, they essentially become real particles, at least as stable as any free particle subject to decay. I see the "waste" energy of the annialation phase of virtual particles as dark energy, as the physical process has inherent inefficiencies.

[swansont]

44 minutes ago, hoola said:

yes, they essentially become real particles, at least as stable as any free particle subject to decay.

Because they take energy from the BH. Energy is conserved in the process, which is why the BH evaporates.

Quote

I see the "waste" energy of the annialation phase of virtual particles as dark energy, as the physical process has inherent inefficiencies.

You keep saying that as if it were a valid scientific principle. There are no inefficiencies in the creation and destruction of virtual particles (or real ones, for that matter), and stating something to the contrary does not make it true.

[hoola]

is not every phenomena in the universe subject to entropy...is this not a valid scientific principle?

[swansont]

11 minutes ago, hoola said:

is not every phenomena in the universe subject to entropy...is this not a valid scientific principle?

Go ahead and apply entropy to this, then. Work through the physics (not just with a hand-wave incantation with a magic wand)

[hoola]

the recent G-2 experiment results that show an anomaly in the levels predicted by the standard model, might indicate a variation in the natural energy levels of virtual particle pairs interacting with the muon at the times of testing, instead of being measurement errors or the standard model being incorrect.  If so, this would tend to agree with the concept of the particle pairs having natural variations in the overall energy levels, in support of the dark matter/weak space idea. In a followup on a general dark matter question, would dark matter tend to collect at earth's lagrangian points? Thanks

Edited April 22, 2021 by hoola

[swansont]

3 hours ago, hoola said:

might indicate a variation in the natural energy levels of virtual particle pairs

What energy levels? You haven’t shown that this an actual phenomenon. 

[hoola]

if the particles have no energy levels, then what is the casimir test measuring?

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, hoola said:

if the particles have no energy levels, then what is the casimir test measuring?

“energy level” has a certain implication about quantized energy of a bound system.

Casimir measures an effect from the lack of cavity states at certain wavelengths; i.e. the energy states are of the cavity, and the force (or pressure) is there because states are missing.

Virtual particles are not constrained to behave the same was as real particles. A virtual photon can have any energy - a continuum. The price of having a large energy is a short existence, because of the uncertainty principle