What are your thoughts on physical torture?

[Neuron]

11 minutes ago, beecee said:

Have you ever seen police trying to quell a riot or stop an illegal march, having horses assaulted, flower pots thrown at them or ink being splurted all over them?

Not sure what is your point. I support police violence when it is needed. But the beatings I talked about happened the day after the riot was sedated and policemen acted in group against single prisoners, beating them one after one. It was literally a punitive expedition and I don't support that.

18 minutes ago, beecee said:

In my country, as I said previously, they are generally  brought to justice.

Here too, if there are strong evidence.

18 minutes ago, beecee said:

You have any facts and/or figures on that happening more regularly?

There are surely other anecdotical evidence in our history. If you are interested may I suggest reading this wikipedia article, in particular the section about "Treatment of prisoners at Bolzaneto". If you want statistics instead I must search them.

[beecee]

34 minutes ago, Neuron said:

Not sure what is your point. I support police violence when it is needed. But the beatings I talked about happened the day after the riot was sedated and policemen acted in group against single prisoners, beating them one after one. It was literally a punitive expedition and I don't support that.

I would rather call it justified force by the Police. As I have agreed to, with the prisoner beatings, those involved should get there just desserts. I don't condone prisoners getting beat up.

36 minutes ago, Neuron said:

Here too, if there are strong evidence.

Of course! We even as I reported had a female prison officer dismissed for having sexual relations with an inmate.

38 minutes ago, Neuron said:

There are surely other anecdotical evidence in our history. If you are interested may I suggest reading this wikipedia article, in particular the section about "Treatment of prisoners at Bolzaneto". If you want statistics instead I must search them.

In essence, I have sympathy more for the victims of crime then those in jail for committing that crime. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning it at all.

[Neuron]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

In essence, I have sympathy more for the victims of crime then those in jail for committing that crime. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning it at all.

Not sure if you opened the link. They were civils and they were brought to Bolzaneto without a judge sentence. Don't know which crime are you talking about. Many of them were simply journalists documenting the protests at G8. 

[MigL]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

For the purpose of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person

Do you realize how broad this definition is ?
Doesn't incarceration cause mental suffering ?
Doesn't shift-work cause mental and physical suffering ( sleep deprivation ) ?
Isn't loud music/noise a form of torture ?

I can pull as many examples out of my ass as you want, but unless we are all talking about the same thing, discussion is futile.

 

PS
Why would you think I was talking about you, INow ?

[beecee]

2 hours ago, Neuron said:

Not sure if you opened the link. They were civils and they were brought to Bolzaneto without a judge sentence. Don't know which crime are you talking about. Many of them were simply journalists documenting the protests at G8. 

The link wasn't working first time round. What I'm talking about is the criminal act you referred to of prison officers and/or  police, bashing inmates? 100% wrong!!

[Peterkin]

4 hours ago, beecee said:

The link wasn't working first time round. What I'm talking about is the criminal act you referred to of prison officers and/or  police, bashing inmates? 100% wrong!!

It's in the Guardian article I linked. https://www.wantedinrome.com/news/italy-shock-video-of-violence-against-prisoners.html Whether this beating of one by many rises from the definition of assault to the definition of torture depends on how often it's repeated. Each legal code has its level of tolerance for police violence. (Unless they're secret police, in which case they have an all-season license.)

The police there, as elsewhere, don't always make the distinctions you make between citizens in custody. In any case, once subdued, handcuffed and caged, neither the innocent protestor nor the violent criminal is dangerous to their captors. 

6 hours ago, MigL said:

Do you realize how broad this definition is ?

Yes.

6 hours ago, MigL said:

Doesn't incarceration cause mental suffering ?

Sure, but that's not counted, because they put in a clause allowing for conventional methods of punishment. Torture is considered cruel treatment in addition to the usual.

6 hours ago, MigL said:

Doesn't shift-work cause mental and physical suffering ( sleep deprivation ) ?

Are prisoners forced to do shift work? In that case, it's probably considered part of the usual punishment.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

Isn't loud music/noise a form of torture ?

Yes, it's very often used by interrogators as part of the sleep-deprivation routine.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

I can pull as many examples out of my ass as you want,

So can the Mukhabarat, which is why no legal definitions lists all the methods and degrees of cruel treatment that constitute torture.

7 hours ago, MigL said:

but unless we are all talking about the same thing, discussion is futile.

I concur.

[beecee]

6 hours ago, Peterkin said:

In any case, once subdued, handcuffed and caged, neither the innocent protestor nor the violent criminal is dangerous to their captors. 

On many occasions, as per the law breaking, march in Sydney by a bunch of rednecks, they are far from being "innocent protestors" and nothing more then agenda fueled criminals practicing their brand of violence and torture.

Incidently if I didn't mention it before, the Police and authorities have received more than 6000 calls from concerned citizens, "dobbing in" some of these criminals as they are recognised from TV screens, and arrests still being made.  

In case I havn't made my position clear, again my definition of torture is as follows, including a harrowing account of a little girl being tortured for 45 minutes by a low life criminal, that a group of people pushing reform and such, decided to let out on parole.......Thankfully, he has now been given a life sentence.

 

My definition of physical torture, being the act of inflicting severe physical or mental pain on a person. The next considerations ought to be, to what extent does corporal punishment, state sanctioned deprivation of freedom for a misdemeanor or crime, or parental policing of children, constitute physical torture?

My answer to that is twofold....[1] In a society where someone commits a serious crime, the sentence/punishment should fit the crime, while every attempt is made to reform that person.[2] if someone has proven to be incorridgable and a continued danger to society, and beyond redemption, then lock them up and throw away the key. Crimes, really horrific crimes, would see life sentences considered, rather then capital punishment due to the possibilty as shown earlier of an error in judgement/conviction, keeping in mind the reformation of the criminal. 

Sometimes the softly softly approach is useless, particularly with young bullies, who are more likely to take advantage of bleeding hearts. This was illustrated with a prisoner in Sydney given parole for good behaviour, only to be found guilty of raping a little girl.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-12/anthony-sampieri-sentenced-for-dance-studio-child-rape/11955590

Key points:

• Anthony Sampieri sexually assaulted the young girl for 40 minutes
• He slashed people who tried to save the girl in 2018 with a knife
• He was on parole at the time of his attack

[Peterkin]

demolished to make room for improved version

57 minutes ago, beecee said:

On many occasions, as per the law breaking, march in Sydney by a bunch of rednecks, they are far from being "innocent protestors" and nothing more then agenda fueled criminals practicing their brand of violence and torture.

Only, I wasn't referring to them, but to all arrestees, anywhere in the world. Subdued, handcuffed, caged prisoners - however you characterize them - pose no physical threat to their captors and therefore beating them is not justifiable police procedure.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Incidently if I didn't mention it before, the Police and authorities have received more than 6000 calls from concerned citizens, "dobbing in" some of these criminals as they are recognised from TV screens, and arrests still being made.  

You did.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

In case I havn't made my position clear, again my definition of torture is as follows, including a harrowing account of a little girl being tortured for 45 minutes by a low life criminal, that a group of people pushing reform and such, decided to let out on parole.......Thankfully, he has now been given a life sentence.

You have.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

My definition of physical torture, being the act of inflicting severe physical or mental pain on a person.

In this, you align with the UN committee.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

The next considerations ought to be, to what extent does corporal punishment, state sanctioned deprivation of freedom for a misdemeanor or crime, or parental policing of children, constitute physical torture?

This is a question that courts and legislatures all over the world must grapple with every day - which doesn't reflect all that favourably on our modern civilization.  No final, definitive, comprehensive answer can be given, even in theory, since the circumstances and particulars vary so greatly that only an intimate case-by-case examination could produce even the most fragmented remedy. I see no profit in chewing over the most sensational ones in giant font.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Peterkin
technoklutz messed up quote function

[beecee]

46 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Only, i wasn't talking about the Sydney ones, but all arrestees everywhere. No subdued, handcuffed and caged prisoner poses a threat to their captors, regardless of their designation before the arrest. 

What you said was....

46 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

In any case, once subdued, handcuffed and caged, neither the innocent protestor nor the violent criminal is dangerous to their captors. 

Obviously all protestors are not innocent, and while obviously you did not comment on the Sydney "protestors", it does need commenting on to show some balance and move away from a political agenda, to simply being a question of right or wrong. In your case, the Police were obviously wrong as I have alluded to more then once now...In the Sydney march, the vast majority of the  protestors were nothing but politically driven rednecks, breaking a law/s.

8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

You did.     You have.   

Yet you apparently do not find it serious enough to comment on? It certainly merits some comment, and has seen a reform in our state re parole for prisoners...sadly making it more difficult for those prisoners  have shown some remorse for their crime and that may deserve parole.

8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Those issues must be deliberated by courts all over the world, pretty much every day - which hardly a positive comment on our civilization.

Agreed, and thankfully my definition of physical torture, along with the provisos, seem to be generally accepted. 

 

8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Noted. I see no need to keep chewing over a sensational crime, especially in giant font

Sensational???How about what the judge said? Did you check out the link? We are talking about the 40 minute rape and torture of a little girl by a low life scumbag that some do gooders let out on parole? Thankfully, we will never have to worry about him again, other then a tax paid funeral in the future.

46 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

This is a question that courts and legislatures all over the world must grapple with every day - which doesn't reflect all that favourably on our modern civilization.  No final, definitive, comprehensive answer can be given, even in theory, since the circumstances and particulars vary so greatly that only an intimate case-by-case examination could produce even the most fragmented remedy. I see no profit in chewing over the most sensational ones in giant font.

What it shows is your own indecisive ambiguous answers to facts and links I have given, showing the evil and torture certain individuals commit in our society, and your opinions focused on the police and authorities being cruel, torturious and overly aggresive instead. 

I chose to be more attuned to the problem as starting and being initiated on most occasions by the dysfunctional people in our society, irrespective of upbringing and circumstances. Police and authorities to quote an old addage, are a necessary evil, the same as jail and correctional centres.

We all, you and I included, are quick to phone them in the event of a problem or crime on our person. They are like Doctors, Nurses, health authorities etc, on the front line in this pandemic and deserve respect for that. Some themselves are criminals and evil, but that goes with any section of authority in our society. Those are the ones that need to be weeded out along with our crook politicians.

I recognise that problem without any political bias. You seem overly critical of them,[the police]  commenting only on the evil section of authority and yet ignoring the evil nature of some in general society. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

What I said, in an addendum to the comment regarding beating of prisoners, not yet convicted of any crime, by Italian police, was:

8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

The police there, as elsewhere, don't always make the distinctions you make between citizens in custody. In any case, once subdued, handcuffed and caged, neither the innocent protestor nor the violent criminal is dangerous to their captors. 

 

46 minutes ago, beecee said:

Yet you apparently do not find it serious enough to comment on?

Not those particular cases, no, other than to reiterate that I have insufficient information on the particulars. Nor your position, either, since you have elaborated more than adequately. In addressing the OP question, I prefer to concentrate on statistics rather than hand-picked crimes.

51 minutes ago, beecee said:

We are talking about the 40 minute rape and torture of a little girl by a low life scumbag that some do gooders let out on parole?

You are. I'm not.

 

52 minutes ago, beecee said:

Some themselves are criminals and evil, but that goes with any section of authority in our society. Those are the ones that need to be weeded out along with our crook politicians.

Agreed.

53 minutes ago, beecee said:

You seem overly critical of them,[the police]  commenting only on the evil section of authority and yet ignoring the evil nature of some in general society. 

Trying to stay on topic. The question was: should torture be part of the punishment for incarcerated persons? (I know the question was regarding "criminals" but I'm acutely aware that not everyone in prison is a criminal.) I am certainly critical of persons in authority abusing it and terrified of persons in authority, with the power to abuse it, being given legal permission to do so. I've lived in a police state and have no desire to repeat the experience. 

[beecee]

41 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

What I said, in an addendum to the comment regarding beating of prisoners, not yet convicted of any crime, by Italian police, was:

What I said was that I agreed with that case, 100% without any proviso. And of course gave the opposite example re redneck criminals marching against the law, and pratctising violence and torture. I remain unbias and see wrong doing as it is on either side, ignoring any political agenda.

41 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Not those particular cases, no, other than to reiterate that I have insufficient information on the particulars. Nor your position, either, since you have elaborated more than adequately. In addressing the OP question, I prefer to concentrate on statistics rather than hand-picked crimes.

I gave links with details and would guess I could also find statistics supporting exactly what I am trying to convey to you. But yet you continue to focus on the Italian case and in the next breath, say you don't focus on hand picked crimes.

Why not simply admit that there is evil and wrong doing on both sides of the fence, just as I have done since I started to take an interest in this thread?

41 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

You are. I'm not.

Why not? It's a documented case of an evil doer, that was in jail for a serious crime, and released on parole, only to straight away commit another act of cruelty and torture. I find that far more illustrative of physical torture and cruelty, [as per the thread title] then to brush aside because of a political agenda.

41 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Agreed.

Great! So you agree then that society does also need to incarcerate and in some cases throw away the key for the incorridgables in society, along with those in authority that practise evil.

41 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Trying to stay on topic. The question was: should torture be part of the punishment for incarcerated persons? (I know the question was regarding "criminals" but I'm acutely aware that not everyone in prison is a criminal.) I am certainly critical of persons in authority abusing it and terrified of persons in authority, with the power to abuse it, being given legal permission to do so. I've lived in a police state and have no desire to repeat the experience. 

I am on topic. I'm detailing acts of cruelty and torture that you seem to find uninteresting. 

I'm not actually aware of anyone that is innocent and in prison, but obviously there might be, I don't know. There have been innocent people executed, which I have commented on, and a reason why I prefer life in prison, rather then capital punishment. And likewise I am also critical of persons in authority abusing their power and have said so many times.

I'm sorry you haved lived in a Police state, I am luckier and have in general always lived in a reasonably free and democratic society, albeit having to sometimes [as in the present] put up with a government that imo is not handling government the way I would. But I am also entitled to vote [unlike other countires] and can and do make my feelings and preferences known. Then of course abide by the majority decision of society.

Edited August 5, 2021 by beecee

[beecee]

18 hours ago, Neuron said:

There are surely other anecdotical evidence in our history. If you are interested may I suggest reading this wikipedia article, in particular the section about "Treatment of prisoners at Bolzaneto". If you want statistics instead I must search them.

While I only glanced through your link earlier, I now have given it the attention it deserves. Complicated to say the least, and obviously highly politically motivated. None of that though, excuses the Italian police force, and obviously government's of both Britian and Italy, [including their comments and in the case of Britian and Tony Blair's, lack of comments], on this  extraordinary act of violence, cruelty and torture. Irrespective of the complications involved, a great wrong was done and obviously the Italian Police involved disgraced the whole of the Police force and Italy as a society also, particularly how justice was not fully served. Very sad. Thankfully though as I said, while it probably is not an isolated case of corruption, cruelty, and torture by authority, it is still more an exception [thankfully] rather then the rule.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Why not simply admit that there is evil and wrong doing on both sides of the fence, just as I have done since I started to take an interest in this thread?

Probably because it wasn't a question about a fence. There is plenty of wrongdoing all over the place, but acknowledging that doesn't express my "thoughts on physical torture".

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Why not? [discuss the cases you cited]

For the reasons I've already given.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

So you agree then that society does also need to incarcerate and in some cases throw away the key for the incorridgables in society, along with those in authority that practise evil.

To some degree and with reservations and conditions. But that's not the issue under consideration.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

I'm detailing acts of cruelty and torture that you seem to find uninteresting. 

Not uninteresting - distasteful and unhelpful. If you want those boys tortured, say why. If you think torture will reform them, explain how. 

1 hour ago, beecee said:

I'm not actually aware of anyone that is innocent and in prison,

And that is a pity.

https://www.nealdavislaw.com/criminal-defense-guides/exonerations-by-state-2019.html

https://www.law.ac.uk/about/press-releases/wrongful-convictions/

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0011128719833355

https://www.thelocal.it/20160425/7000-italians-are-unjustly-imprisoned-each-year/

That's just a sample of the countries we tend to think of having sound criminal justice systems. It doesn't take into account all the theocracies and autocracies that still imprison  people for having the wrong sexual orientation or speaking up against the government or belonging to an ethnic minority.

2 hours ago, beecee said:

I am luckier and have in general always lived in a reasonably free and democratic society,

And if you want to keep it that way, I would advise you not to support giving more leeway and power to the police than they need to carry out their constitutional duties - so that abuse of power remains an exception, rather than the rule. 

 

 

[beecee]

34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Probably because it wasn't a question about a fence. There is plenty of wrongdoing all over the place, but acknowledging that doesn't express my "thoughts on physical torture".

Well then why not discuss "physical torture" as dished out by certified, dangerous criminals, rednecks and other street rabble? 

34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

For the reasons I've already given.

So you chose to pick and chose what aspects of physical torture, cruelty etc that suits your fancy? An unreasonable attitude in my book.

34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

To some degree and with reservations and conditions. But that's not the issue under consideration.

 To some degree?☺️ You trip the light fanatstic very well.

34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Not uninteresting - distasteful and unhelpful. If you want those boys tortured, say why. If you think torture will reform them, explain how. 

Yep distastful  certainly. And no I don't want them tortured and you are being dishonest in saying that. All I want is justice to match the crime, and for them to be punished for their crime, along with attempts at reformation. If that fails, throw the book at them.

34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

 And that is a pity.

Not really, simply a fact that I am not aware of anyone innocent and in prison, and the examples you give are also obviously the exceptions rather then the rule, or are you suggesting that everyone in prison is innocent and that we throw open all the doors of our prisons and correctional centres? But just a passing thought...why only put in the first sentence of what I said. Do you think that is honest? or smart? Here is the full text..."I'm not actually aware of anyone that is innocent and in prison, but obviously there might be, I don't know. There have been innocent people executed, which I have commented on, and a reason why I prefer life in prison, rather then capital punishment. And likewise I am also critical of persons in authority abusing their power and have said so many times."

34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That's just a sample of the countries we tend to think of having sound criminal justice systems. It doesn't take into account all the theocracies and autocracies that still imprison  people for having the wrong sexual orientation or speaking up against the government or belonging to an ethnic minority.

Sure, there are countries where ordinary people are having a hard time of it with injustices etc...China probably at the forefront of that. Why not campaign in those places instead of taking a reactionary stance against aspects such as police at unruly against the law marches. Certain states in the US, under Trump of course maybe another. But again, all the examples I have given, that concern authority in my country, have been police using appropriate force, including that policeman with the woman that spat at him.

But I would again say that the crooked and dangerous coppers in the USA, are still only a fraction of the greater decent overall police force, and that that far bigger reasonable percentage, also feel the same way about the Floyd killers and other "shoot first and ask later" incidents in the USA.

Like I said, when you have a problem, who you gunna call!

34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

And if you want to keep it that way, I would advise you not to support giving more leeway and power to the police than they need to carry out their constitutional duties - so that abuse of power remains an exception, rather than the rule. 

Depends. I support the extra powers police have been given to reign in the rednecks and conspiracy pushers, marching and promoting anarchy against medical advice in wearing masks and vaccinations. I also fully support the harder line now taken on prisoners applying for parole after the violent rape and torture of a little girl by a prisoner on parole...you know, the one you don't want to talk about. I support necessary  powers given to those in authorty to reign in the criminals, drug pushers and other instigators of violence and torture.

Edited August 6, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

2 minutes ago, beecee said:

Well then why not discuss "physical torture" as dished out by certified, dangerous criminals, rednecks and other street rabble? 

Because that wasn't the question and i don't have the answer.

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

o some degree?☺️ You trip the light fanatstic very well.

Sorry I can't devise a simple blanket solution to a hugely complicated, multi-faceted problem.

7 minutes ago, beecee said:

And no I don't want them tortured and you are being dishonest in saying that.

I'm asking how your bringing up these examples relates to the topic.

5 minutes ago, beecee said:

Not really, simply a fact that I am not aware of anyone innocent and in prison, and the examples you give are also obviously the exceptions rather then the rule,

Sure, what's a few thousand here or there, as long as it's a minority?

9 minutes ago, beecee said:

But just a passing thought...why only put in the first sentence of what I said

Because that's the information I proceeded to provide.

10 minutes ago, beecee said:

Do you think that is honest? or smart?

I honestly thought it was the relevant bit and didn't want to clutter up the post with repetition. I don't know about smart. 

 

13 minutes ago, beecee said:

I also fully support the harder line now taken on prisoners applying for parole after the violent rape and torture of a little girl by a prisoner on parole...you know, the one you don't want to talk about.

Criminal justice, prison sentences, rehabilitation, reform and paroles are all very interesting topics and I'm happy to talk about them - in the appropriate venue. Particular cases, I'm always reluctant to talk about in the absence of an opportunity (or, frankly, inclination) to study them in depth.

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Because that wasn't the question and i don't have the answer.

The question was in regards to physical torture as dished out by criminals and other dysfunctional aspects of society. Again you seem to want to pick and chose what suits your own agenda.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Sorry I can't devise a simple blanket solution to a hugely complicated, multi-faceted problem.

I can.Here this might help. Physical torture is abhorent in any society. Those that practise it, the criminals, the incorridgible prisoners, the agenda laden rednecks that defy authority, the corrupt police, the corrupt politicians, and government officials that over step the mark, are all abhorent and a blight on society in general.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

I'm asking how your bringing up these examples relates to the topic.

They are illustrations of physical torture.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Sure, what's a few thousand here or there, as long as it's a minority?

No, not at all. All we can do is go on the evidence. Or again, are you suggesting we throw open all the prison doors? Plus of course any innocent person released after been deemed innocent, should certainly be compensated for such injustices.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Because that's the information I proceeded to provide.

 Some may view it as being taken out of context.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Criminal justice, prison sentences, rehabilitation, reform and paroles are all very interesting topics and I'm happy to talk about them - in the appropriate venue. Particular cases, I'm always reluctant to talk about in the absence of an opportunity (or, frankly, inclination) to study them in depth.

Again all you are doing is refusing to discuss anything that happens to put a hole in your agenda. The man concerned in my link, was a violent criminal that was released early on parole, then in very short time, proceeded to rape, and torture a young girl for 40 minutes. 

I'm sure though that you now agree that he will rot in prison for life.

The title of this thread is "what do you think of physical torture?"

I reckon every man and his dog understands what physical torture involves. 

It isn't slapping a child on the wrist, or smacking a bully who has harmed you, in the mouth. It isn't "measured police" actions to quell a riot or stop an illegality, It isn't throwing a woman on the ground who has spat at you for the second time and after a warning, It isn't any of those things, it isn't sentencing a low life paroled prisoner to life inprisonment for the violent tortuous rape of a little girl. It isn't any of those things.

Those that undertake violence and torture, can come from any section of society, including police and authority, as well as ordinary Joe Blow around the corner. We all know what torture is.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

The question was in regards to physical torture as dished out by criminals and other dysfunctional aspects of society. Again you seem to want to pick and chose what suits your own agenda.

I read the OP question as:

Quote

I am wondering what do you think about physical torture being used on criminals.

on criminals, not by criminals.

 

1 hour ago, beecee said:

All we can do is go on the evidence. Or again, are you suggesting we throw open all the prison doors? Plus of course any innocent person released after been deemed innocent, should certainly be compensated for such injustices.

There are many instances of miscarriage of justice when "we" didn't go by the evidence. However, as previously stated, I'm prepared to discuss the efficacy of the prison system at some other time. Some wrongfully convicted prisoners are compensated... well, that is to say, given some money, in lieu of what-all has been taken from them. Some are executed, some are abused by guards and/or other inmates; some have their appeal denied.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Again all you are doing is refusing to discuss anything that happens to put a hole in your agenda

It's not my agenda; it's Alex Mercer's. If you want to start a thread on any of those other subjects, please do. Then I will abide by your agenda.

[beecee]

48 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I read the OP question as:

on criminals, not by criminals.

I suggest you read the first page with posts by yourself, me and others, before attempting to narrow discussion down to just that. Rather telling I suspect.

As I said, we all know what torture is, and so far all agree that its practise is abhorent. 

The debate in actual fact has come down to what you wrongly claim  is torture.

I have made that pretty clear that we all know what torture is, and  what I believe isn't torture. You chose dancing around and ambiguity, that which strangely you accused me of earlier.

Edited August 6, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

7 hours ago, beecee said:

The debate in actual fact has come down to what you wrongly claim  is torture.

Oh well, I've tried my best. Carry on!

[dimreepr]

32 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Oh well, I've tried my best. Carry on!

So, your version of justice is roughly the same as mine and beecee?

Didn't I address that on page one?

 

On 8/3/2021 at 2:13 PM, dimreepr said:

Indeed, as Socrates suggests, any harm we do, we do to our soul's...

It goes to the heart of justice, if I pluck out an eye for an eye; can you see more?

 

[Peterkin]

10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

So, your version of justice is roughly the same as mine and beecee?

I don't think so. I have no idea what your version of justice is. I have some idea of Beecee's and disagree with at least some of it. However, I didn't articulate "my version" of justice. I don't have a comprehensive, universal philosophy of justice - only examples of how some societies have handled some aspects of it, well or badly.   I answered the question about torture-as-justice in the negative on Page 1; since then, all I've done was respond to various comments, on and off topic. 

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Didn't I address that on page one?

You could say so. It didn't solve the problem of Guantanamo. No-one has.  

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

You could say so. It didn't solve the problem of Guantanamo. No-one has.  

Was that justified?

[MigL]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

ndeed, as Socrates suggests, any harm we do, we do to our soul's...

What 'soul' ?

4 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I have no idea what your version of justice is. I have some idea of Beecee's and disagree with at least some of it. However, I didn't articulate "my version" of justice.

One of the problems when you are trying to discuss something which isn't clearly defined.
But the OP isn't about justice; it is about 'torture', which also doen't have a clear, agreed upon, definition.

Reminds me of the Supreme Court Justice, who said about pornography, a subjective activity, which lacks clearly defined parameters, " I know it when I see it ."

[Peterkin]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

6 hours ago, Peterkin said:

You could say so. It didn't solve the problem of Guantanamo. No-one has.  

Was that justified?

How do you mean? The OP question was torture of prisoners in detention as used by law-enforcement as punishment or deterrent to criminals.

Guantanamo - to the best of my information - is a place of detention and torture. It has also been a contentious issue in the US for two decades. It seemed relevant in the context. The matters of forgiveness and peace, or revenge, or punishment, go no way at all toward resolving that problem. Your answer hasn't helped; my answer hasn't helped, Beecee's answer hasn't helped. 

I conclude that whatever we, even all three put together, understand about justice cannot solve such a problem.  And it's not a unique problem, globally. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Peterkin
more words in quest of clarity

[beecee]

8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Oh well, I've tried my best. Carry on!

You have been pretty ambiguous at best, while I have given examples on what I believe is, and what I believe is not torture. 

A sanitised society is a nice goal, giving one a warm inner glow, but also rather pretentious imo. I said it earlier, I conduct my life according to my principles, which I believe to be fairly reasonable and without any political agenda. I see extreme left propaganda as bad as extreme right propaganda. And  I'm also no Angel, even now in my old age. 

The society I am luckily a part of, I believe to be also reasonable, while certainly with evil and undesirable aspects...that's life sadly...it takes all kinds to make up our world, also sometimes sadly.

I also understand [as you pointed out] that there are many other societies that have it far worse, in fact bordering on actions such as torturing of their citizens everyday. I, or more correctly my family, have to the best of our ability, tried to "help out" such societies, by the only means we know how...sponsoring our second child from Africa. Thankfully, we are in a position to do this, many others are not.

Let me sign off with telling you I have also tried my best.

Thanks for the debate and some interesting thoughts, and my apologies if I have at times gone of track in trying to create a picture of where I am coming from. 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by beecee