Aliens from space (split from Time to talk about UFO's or now as the military calls them UAP's?)

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Again... During the "heyday" of UFOs, probably beginning in the 40s to the late 70s, after which the phenomena was pretty much ignored as anything but "crazy" the main goal of the air force was not to study but to debunk. Their motives were their own and few were privy to them but some scientists like J. Allen Hynek quite working for the air force due to the total lack of rigor concerning the phenomena. Hynek said that the air force was in the business of debunking not studying the sightings and expected him to explain them away no matter how unlikely the "explanation" was. The air force would tout the sightings they could explain while actually hiding info on the ones they could not. They ended up withholding evidence from Hynek and keeping him from having access to witnesses considered to be highly competent like air force pilots and gun camera footage. 

It sounds like they “withheld” evidence after he stopped working for them, which is…unexpected behavior? My former workplace has not shared information with me since I stopped working there. There is information that would be illegal for them to share with me. 

It also sounds like your beef is with the Air Force. They are a military organization. But the paradigm here is that “aliens” is not a scientific answer until there is evidence to support that conclusion. The null hypothesis is that aliens do not exist. This is no different than elsewhere in science. So charging someone with finding an explanation that fits with mainstream science is perfectly reasonable, since the default assumption is that these phenomena are not of alien origin. You can only entertain that possibility after all other explanations have been eliminated. Again - just as with the rest of science; experiments have to rule out all confounding effects that might be responsible for a result

The real question is why folks who claim aliens (or bigfoot, whatever) exist think that these rules don’t apply to them. (I think lack of awareness of the rules is a likely suspect)

 

 

 

[Moontanman]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

It sounds like they “withheld” evidence after he stopped working for them, which is…unexpected behavior? My former workplace has not shared information with me since I stopped working there. There is information that would be illegal for them to share with me. 

It also sounds like your beef is with the Air Force. They are a military organization. But the paradigm here is that “aliens” is not a scientific answer until there is evidence to support that conclusion. The null hypothesis is that aliens do not exist. This is no different than elsewhere in science. So charging someone with finding an explanation that fits with mainstream science is perfectly reasonable, since the default assumption is that these phenomena are not of alien origin. You can only entertain that possibility after all other explanations have been eliminated. Again - just as with the rest of science; experiments have to rule out all confounding effects that might be responsible for a result

The real question is why folks who claim aliens (or bigfoot, whatever) exist think that these rules don’t apply to them. (I think lack of awareness of the rules is a likely suspect)

 

 

 

I surrender, I cannot provide concrete evidence that there are aliens currently flying around in our skies. I still think current data suggests something extraordinary is going on but suggests is evidently not enough to justify debate much less investigation.     

[iNow]

Oh. Poop. I thought debate and investigation were still allowed. Dagnabbit. Why am I always the last one to find out?

[Moontanman]

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

Oh. Poop. I thought debate and investigation were still allowed. Dagnabbit. Why am I always the last one to find out?

Evidently proof is required before investigation can begin. 

[TheVat]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

Oh. Poop. I thought debate and investigation were still allowed. Dagnabbit. Why am I always the last one to find out?

It's a speculative thread, so I don't see why we can't still post sightings (as Moon was planning to do yesterday) and there could be debate as to their quality of data, what are reasonable testable hypotheses, etc.  And I would like to see more academic institutions send (as happened in Texas with the university sending a team of science grad students and prof to look at the Marfa lights) investigation teams to study the anomalous and possibly extraordinary.  

 

[Alex_Krycek]

9 hours ago, TheVat said:

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/claims-about-pentagon-ufo-program-how-much-is-true/

(from the SWR section of article)

Supposedly haunted and filled with all kinds of cryptids and paranormal phenomena, it was purchased in 1996 by Robert Bigelow to study its alleged phenomena. Members of Bigelow’s National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) stayed on the ranch to do a careful first hand study. One of them was Colm Kelleher, Ph.D., co-author of the 2005 book Hunt for the Skinwalker. Another was Dr. Eric Davis, an astronomer who now works at Dr. Hal Puthoff’s Institute for Advanced Studies in Austin, Texas, studying weird physics. Despite Bigelow’s funding and the investigators’ unfettered access to the alleged phenomena,

after several years of [Sherman] family trauma and of focused NIDS investigation, we managed to obtain very little physical evidence of anomalous phenomena, at least no physical evidence that could be considered as conclusive proof of anything (Hunt for the Skinwalker, p. 209).

So, all the King’s Horses and all the King’s Men and all the King’s cameras and electronic recording devices could not document anything paranormal occurring at the Skinwalker Ranch, in spite of scientists spending several years onsite trying to do so. NIDS never did document anything much happening anywhere, so Bigelow shut down NIDS in 2004. In 2016 he sold the ranch to Adamantium Real Estate, LLC, whose once-anonymous owner has just revealed himself to be Brandon Fugal, a wealthy real estate investor from Salt Lake City. Fugal had previously been involved in weird science projects, like “an attempt to create a gravitational reduction device that could produce clean energy”. 

(....)

Not only was the yearslong monitoring of “Skinwalker” by NIDS unable to obtain proof of anything unusual happening, but the people who owned the property prior to the Shermans, a family whose members lived there 60 years, deny that any mysterious “phenomena” of any kind occurred there. The parsimonious explanation is that the supernatural claims about the ranch were made up by the Sherman family prior to selling it to the gullible Bigelow. Many of the really bizarre alleged incidents described in Hunt for the Skinwalker were witnessed only by Terry Sherman, who stayed on the ranch as a caretaker after it was sold to Bigelow.

This isn't an accurate report of what has happened at Skinwaker Ranch. 

The History channel investigators have filmed UAPs emerging from, and disappearing into a fixed area of the property above a cliff (mesa).  Terry Sherman, the previous owner before Robert Bigelow, reported seeing a UAP emerge from the same area at night, however on the other side of the opening there was daylight and a clear blue sky.  Sherman also reported luminescent glowing orbs floating around the property that attacked his livestock and pets, as well as many other bizarre events.  Regarding the NIDS team, they are on record about witnessesing the same type of phenomena.

@Moontanman  Suggest you watch a few episodes because all this phenomena is captured on camera during the show.  Too many paranormal events to name - truly a mysterious place.  

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Alex_Krycek

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I surrender, I cannot provide concrete evidence that there are aliens currently flying around in our skies. I still think current data suggests something extraordinary is going on but suggests is evidently not enough to justify debate much less investigation.     

I don’t see how you reach this conclusion. Who said debate and investigation are not justified? On the contrary, we’re begging for you to legitimately investigate, instead of the shoddy hand-waving that we currently get. For actual scientific data, instead of de facto attempts to get a waiver from scientific rigor. 

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Evidently proof is required before investigation can begin. 

What’s stopping you, and other like-minded folks, from investigating? Is complaining about having to live up to scientific standards too time consuming?

The problem, it seems, is you want others to investigate, and yes, you need to come up with something to motivate most scientists to spend time (and money) on someone else’s pet project. Most scientists have their own research to do.

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, TheVat said:

It's a speculative thread, so I don't see why we can't still post sightings (as Moon was planning to do yesterday) and there could be debate as to their quality of data, what are reasonable testable hypotheses, etc.  And I would like to see more academic institutions send (as happened in Texas with the university sending a team of science grad students and prof to look at the Marfa lights) investigation teams to study the anomalous and possibly extraordinary.  

 

I did post a sighting, from the documentary The Phenomena" but no one seemed to be interested in watching a 2 minute clip. None of us are privy to the original data, we all have to depend on what others have reported. To a great extent this is true for everything posted on this forum... UFOs just get an extra kick in the teeth from the get go. 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

I don’t see how you reach this conclusion. Who said debate and investigation are not justified? On the contrary, we’re begging for you to legitimately investigate, instead of the shoddy hand-waving that we currently get. For actual scientific data, instead of de facto attempts to get a waiver from scientific rigor.

I must be stupid, I do present actual data, if I had waved you should point it out specifically instead of handwaving everything I say as illegitimate. 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

 

What’s stopping you, and other like-minded folks, from investigating? Is complaining about having to live up to scientific standards too time consuming?

People are investigating, sometimes it doesn't adhere to scientific standards and when I doesn't it should be pointed out... specifically. Sadly we do not have access to the original data on most sightings and have to go with what is reported. 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

The problem, it seems, is you want others to investigate, and yes, you need to come up with something to motivate most scientists to spend time (and money) on someone else’s pet project. Most scientists have their own research to do.

Until quite recently, and I know you refuse to acknowledge this, scientists have been discouraged from looking into these things officially for fear of having their reputations sullied. This attitude dates from the 1950s when the air force controlled pretty much all the data not to mention the purse strings of many universities and actively discouraged any scientists from universities from looking into these things. There are some notable exceptions but they still encountered considerable friction from the scientific community. 

To expect aliens to leave behind "concrete" evidence of their existence just so we can know they exist seems to be a bit silly to me. Yeah they might, they might not, but there is no guarantee.  

Possibly we should drop the current nomenclature that implies aliens and just say that once all the data is in instead of saying UFO or UAP we should just admit they are Objects of Unknown Origin.  Then we can concentrate on trying to figure out their origin instead of assuming we already know they are or are not of alien origin. Who knows, one of the craziest notions IMHO is that they represent an unknown civilization we share the earth with. 

You have yet to back up your assertion that distance and relativity preclude alien visitation.  

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

You have yet to back up your assertion that distance and relativity preclude alien visitation.  

Relativity is established science and the onus is on you to understand it if someone cites it. From your sigs:

You do not possess belief, belief possesses you...

I'm always open to new ideas, I just don't let them crawl into my skull and take a dump...

And

Religion evaporates in the light of critical inquiry much like the morning dew in the light of the rising sun...

Which could read:

Visiting aliens evaporate in the light of critical inquiry much like the morning dew in the light of the rising sun...

 

 

 

[swansont]

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 

I must be stupid, I do present actual data, if I had waved you should point it out specifically instead of handwaving everything I say as illegitimate. 

Anecdotes are not data

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

People are investigating, sometimes it doesn't adhere to scientific standards and when I doesn't it should be pointed out... specifically. Sadly we do not have access to the original data on most sightings and have to go with what is reported. 

How about we point out when it does adhere to scientific standards. That would save time.

 

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Until quite recently, and I know you refuse to acknowledge this, scientists have been discouraged from looking into these things officially for fear of having their reputations sullied. This attitude dates from the 1950s when the air force controlled pretty much all the data not to mention the purse strings of many universities and actively discouraged any scientists from universities from looking into these things. There are some notable exceptions but they still encountered considerable friction from the scientific community. 

Again, your beef is with the air force. But it’s not like no other scientists have encountered friction in getting ideas accepted.

 

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

To expect aliens to leave behind "concrete" evidence of their existence just so we can know they exist seems to be a bit silly to me. Yeah they might, they might not, but there is no guarantee.  

Did anyone say it had to be intentional? No crashes? No alien ever accidentally dropped something? No alien out on a visit ever had to duck behind a tree to relieve themselves?

 

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

You have yet to back up your assertion that distance and relativity preclude alien visitation.  

I didn’t actually claim that. I said “Nothing anthropocentric about the limitations of relativity, and the vast distances of interstellar space.” in response to an assertion that objections are anthropocentric, and the suggestion that alien visitation should not be considered extraordinary 

I’ve invited you to present scientific analysis to the contrary, but you’ve never done so. Anything you’ve said falls well short of scientific standards, like everything else involved with the topic.

[StringJunky]

With the ubiquity of camera phones to close the gaps, the aliens should have been conclusively recorded by now.

Edited February 23, 2023 by StringJunky

[Alex_Krycek]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

With the ubiquity of camera phones to close the gaps, the aliens should have been conclusively recorded by now.

If you're referring to UAPs, they have been.  There's a lot of photographic evidence of UAPs.

 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

No alien out on a visit ever had to duck behind a tree to relieve themselves?

One, I will cherish this mental image for some time. Two, I have heard from a reliable source that the Mothership has told them to "just hold it."

 

42 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

If you're referring to UAPs, they have been.  There's a lot of photographic evidence of UAPs.

 

Absolutely.  There is solid evidence of aerial phenomena that are unidentified.  

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, TheVat said:

One, I will cherish this mental image for some time. Two, I have heard from a reliable source that the Mothership has told them to "just hold it."

There’s a scene in “Resident Alien” where the protagonist is asked by two kids if he poops. He says, “Everybody poops” and the kids giggle, “Just like the book!”
 

Anyway…I didn’t even mention the reaction mass a craft would have to leave behind if it ever landed and took off. (unless one is invoking new physics, which is a problem, because now you need evidence of that, and one can do those experiments in a lab without any stigma of alien research. NASA’s even funded such efforts, IIRC)

[Moontanman]

On 2/19/2023 at 11:18 AM, swansont said:

 

Nothing anthropocentric about the limitations of relativity, and the vast distances of interstellar space.

And nothing about these things preclude alien spacecraft visiting the earth.

8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Relativity is established science and the onus is on you to understand it if someone cites it. From your sigs:

You do not possess belief, belief possesses you...

I'm always open to new ideas, I just don't let them crawl into my skull and take a dump...

And

Religion evaporates in the light of critical inquiry much like the morning dew in the light of the rising sun...

Which could read:

Visiting aliens evaporate in the light of critical inquiry much like the morning dew in the light of the rising sun...

 

 

 

Relativity in no way precludes aliens visiting the Earth. My belief on this subject is that there are occurrences that despite volumes of data remain unexplained and point to something extraordinary occurring. 

A bright object hovering over nuclear missile silos and the missiles going off line, 10 at once, doesn't prove aliens but it begs the question, what was it, and no answer has been forthcoming.    

[swansont]

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

A bright object hovering over nuclear missile silos and the missiles going off line, 10 at once, doesn't prove aliens but it begs the question, what was it, and no answer has been forthcoming.

There was a light in my yard last night. What was it? Why is no answer forthcoming?

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

There was a light in my yard last night. What was it? Why is no answer forthcoming?

Lack of data would be my guess. But then again...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11776067/Air-Force-vets-testified-witnessing-UFOs-TURN-nuclear-warheads.html

Edited February 24, 2023 by Moontanman

[Alex_Krycek]

10 hours ago, Moontanman said:

A bright object hovering over nuclear missile silos and the missiles going off line, 10 at once, doesn't prove aliens but it begs the question, what was it, and no answer has been forthcoming.    

The obvious implication is intelligent intervention / control.  That wasn't an isolated incident either.  

[TheVat]

Stockholm U. astronomer Villarroel and her team have been studying transient light sources on old photographic plates.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92162-7

9 transients that appeared in April 1950.

https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/527/3/6312/7457759

Three transients that coincided with famous July 1952 Washington DC sightings of UAP.

Article that includes section (scroll to last third of article) on Villarroel's team.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/14/what-happens-if-we-have-been-visited-by-aliens-lied-to-ufos-uaps-grusch-congress

Other astronomers, using different techniques, have seen things that warrant further investigation. Beatriz Villarroel, assistant professor of physics at Stockholm University, is leading a team of astronomers looking at photographic plates of the night sky that date from before the first artificial satellite was launched in 1957.

As satellites orbit the Earth, they can reflect sunlight causing bright glints to appear in the night sky. These leave streaks on astronomical images or spots of light that appear and disappear seemingly at random. Mysteriously, on one plate from April 1950, Villarroel found nine sources of light that appeared within a half-hour period and then vanished. Conducting observations using the Gran Telescopio Canarias, on La Palma in the Canary Islands, revealed nothing at the locations of the light sources that might have flared up.

“There is no astronomical explanation for this type of event,” says Villarroel.

More recently, her team found three bright “stars” on a plate dated 19 July 1952 that have since vanished. Provocatively, this is a date burned into the diaries of UFO enthusiasts around the world because it coincides with a famous incident in which pilots and radar operators saw lights they could not explain in the skies above Washington DC.

“I think it’s very important to do this kind of [nearby] searching for extraterrestrial objects because the [astronomical] community mostly looks for things very, very far away. I think it’s time to do something new,” says Villarroel, who is now working to establish the ExoProbe project to look for anomalous objects among the vast number of human satellites currently in orbit.

(this will get interesting if contamination of these old photographic plates can be ruled out.  The Guardian article also discusses the psychological effects on the public, if a conspiracy of concealment of ET evidence were to be revealed, though that might be another thread topic)

[Moontanman]

4 hours ago, TheVat said:

Stockholm U. astronomer Villarroel and her team have been studying transient light sources on old photographic plates.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92162-7

9 transients that appeared in April 1950.

https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/527/3/6312/7457759

Three transients that coincided with famous July 1952 Washington DC sightings of UAP.

Article that includes section (scroll to last third of article) on Villarroel's team.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/14/what-happens-if-we-have-been-visited-by-aliens-lied-to-ufos-uaps-grusch-congress

Other astronomers, using different techniques, have seen things that warrant further investigation. Beatriz Villarroel, assistant professor of physics at Stockholm University, is leading a team of astronomers looking at photographic plates of the night sky that date from before the first artificial satellite was launched in 1957.

As satellites orbit the Earth, they can reflect sunlight causing bright glints to appear in the night sky. These leave streaks on astronomical images or spots of light that appear and disappear seemingly at random. Mysteriously, on one plate from April 1950, Villarroel found nine sources of light that appeared within a half-hour period and then vanished. Conducting observations using the Gran Telescopio Canarias, on La Palma in the Canary Islands, revealed nothing at the locations of the light sources that might have flared up.

“There is no astronomical explanation for this type of event,” says Villarroel.

More recently, her team found three bright “stars” on a plate dated 19 July 1952 that have since vanished. Provocatively, this is a date burned into the diaries of UFO enthusiasts around the world because it coincides with a famous incident in which pilots and radar operators saw lights they could not explain in the skies above Washington DC.

“I think it’s very important to do this kind of [nearby] searching for extraterrestrial objects because the [astronomical] community mostly looks for things very, very far away. I think it’s time to do something new,” says Villarroel, who is now working to establish the ExoProbe project to look for anomalous objects among the vast number of human satellites currently in orbit.

(this will get interesting if contamination of these old photographic plates can be ruled out.  The Guardian article also discusses the psychological effects on the public, if a conspiracy of concealment of ET evidence were to be revealed, though that might be another thread topic)

I am aware of these incidents as well, I know I have ruined my reputation on this issue and I have come to the conclusion that current gov investigations are more along the lines of political obfuscation than any real effort to reveal hidden data. 

I'll risk further humiliation and say incidents like this and others have been suppressed (or at least any real investigation has been suppressed) by the gov for reasons unknown. Lots of really weird explanations have been proposed to explain what if anything is really going on and IMHO "science" is being manipulated by the military to hide, at the very least, their own incompetence in figuring out what is going on.

No I cannot provide citations to prove my point but the overall pattern IMHO is one of deception by the government. Other governments have come forward and admitted that something extraordinary is going on even to the point of suggesting aliens as the explanation. Of course these smaller countries cannot be correct because they do not agree with the US Military. 

I think it's telling that the military cannot figure out how to give the data they have collected to anyone else, they even have problems giving the information to congress... in secret! That simply doesn't make sense, our own governments to keep these things secret from the very people who, at least in theory, actually run the government.   

The fact that the military actually cannot give a straight answer to their own government is telling but the need to ridicule and suppress any effort to by real scientists to try and study what little data is available is just as telling as the military making sure even the scientists they hired to debunk the data did not gain access to he entire story.

I know that their main investigative scientist, J Allen Hynek quit working for them because he found they were hiding data from him and refusing to allow him to interview pilots hat had witnessed UFOs that had especially good data sets. Gun camera footage, radar traces, and eyewitness testimony that directly contradicted the military's stance that UFOs were nothing but mistakes by witnesses.   

Now there are several weird sightings currently being looked at and I am not going to discuss them because I honestly think there is a major connection between our current political kaos and the so called UAP investigation by congress.   

When real scientists are being brought in and shown the all data the military has I'll try to believe a real investigation is going on.              

On 2/22/2023 at 8:30 PM, swansont said:

What’s stopping you, and other like-minded folks, from investigating? Is complaining about having to live up to scientific standards too time consuming?

lack of access to the data possibly? 

On 2/22/2023 at 8:30 PM, swansont said:

The problem, it seems, is you want others to investigate, and yes, you need to come up with something to motivate most scientists to spend time (and money) on someone else’s pet project. Most scientists have their own research to do.

No I want the military to stop supressing the data they have and provide it to real scientists, hell they cannot even give it to the congress critters who supposedly run the country.   

Edited January 14 by Moontanman

[swansont]

14 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

            

lack of access to the data possibly? 

So go get your own data.

14 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

No I want the military to stop supressing the data they have and provide it to real scientists, hell they cannot even give it to the congress critters who supposedly run the country.   

There are a lot of national security possibilities for the military to not share their data; that just seems like a convenient scapegoat. 

I thought there was a TV show about some hotspot for UFO sightings. Where’s all the data from those sightings?  (the obvious candidate answer is that it’s fiction, strictly for the suckers. Actual data would wreck the illusion)

[Moontanman]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

So go get your own data.

Impossible, I am not a scientist and any data I were to acquire would be useless because it wasn't gathered under controlled conditions. 

3 hours ago, swansont said:

There are a lot of national security possibilities for the military to not share their data; that just seems like a convenient scapegoat. 

That shouldn't apply to congress in a secret meeting but more importantly why has the military suppressed the data they have from scientists even the ones they had working for them? 

3 hours ago, swansont said:

I thought there was a TV show about some hotspot for UFO sightings. Where’s all the data from those sightings?  (the obvious candidate answer is that it’s fiction, strictly for the suckers. Actual data would wreck the illusion)

Again as has been discussed in other threads none of the data we have was obtained under controlled conditions so it cannot be trusted. I understand this and have accepted the fact that data collected by me would not be considered admissible as data. I thought we had already established that no data has been collected by anyone qualified by science. 

Actual data has been collected, I have no control over that data being accepted in science. In fact as I have said, under current conditions the only way we can be sure that aliens are here is if they tell us they are here, everything else is hearsay. 

[TheVat]

17 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I am aware of these incidents as well, I know I have ruined my reputation on this issue

Hey we're just some guys talking online.  I don't think you're in the tinfoil hat brigade, nor is anybody else among the regulars here.  It's a speculation thread so there's no reputational stake in speculating.  

17 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I know that their main investigative scientist, J Allen Hynek quit working for them because he found they were hiding data from him and refusing to allow him to interview pilots hat had witnessed UFOs that had especially good data sets. Gun camera footage, radar traces, and eyewitness testimony that directly contradicted the military's stance that UFOs were nothing but mistakes by witnesses. 

I couldn't personally assess the severity of hiding data (versus, say, just bureaucratic rules being followed by office drones who had no interest in expediting scientific sharing of info).  I grew up a few miles from where Hynek's family was from, knew people in that community, have heard nothing but good things about his integrity and allegiance to principles of sound science and objectivity.  I think he did a good job of pointing out procedural problems and misdirected resources with Project Blue Book.

 

17 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Now there are several weird sightings currently being looked at and I am not going to discuss them because I honestly think there is a major connection between our current political kaos and the so called UAP investigation by congress.   

I sometimes wonder if politicians like UAP hearings as a means of distraction from the obvious failure of Congress to do its job.  

KAOS - should someone enlist the help of Maxwell Smart?

Edited January 15 by TheVat

[swansont]

14 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Impossible, I am not a scientist and any data I were to acquire would be useless because it wasn't gathered under controlled conditions. 

Plenty of non-scientists gather data that's useful (amateur astronomy, citizen science projects like bird counting.) It's not controlled conditions - these aren't done in a lab - it's the rigor of gathering the data e.g. instead of a random snapshot, it's multiple pics from different vantage points, with calibrated distances and background shots for reference. The problem with existing pictures is that there is almost no data you can get from them.

The military data you don't have access to wasn't collected under controlled conditions, either.

14 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 Again as has been discussed in other threads none of the data we have was obtained under controlled conditions so it cannot be trusted. I understand this and have accepted the fact that data collected by me would not be considered admissible as data. I thought we had already established that no data has been collected by anyone qualified by science. 

Again, "qualified by science" and who collects it isn't inherently the issue (unless you're a known charlatan)

 

 

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Plenty of non-scientists gather data that's useful (amateur astronomy, citizen science projects like bird counting.

I happen to be one of them although my contribution has always been field work supervised by a real scientist.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

It's not controlled conditions - these aren't done in a lab - it's the rigor of gathering the data e.g. instead of a random snapshot, it's multiple pics from different vantage points, with calibrated distances and background shots for reference. The problem with existing pictures is that there is almost no data you can get from them.

Do not pretend that UFO researcher gets the same respect as an amature astronomer or a bird watcher. If I were to send in a a video or picture of an Ivory Billed Woodpecker at least some ornithologists would beat a path to my door to examine my film or pic but let me get a picture of a UFO and no matter how good the picture is or the data surrounding it, in fact I think to could be said the better the picture the more likely it will be labeled too good to be true and therefore a hoax. Scientists would avoid me like the plague and if I made too big a stink I'd be labeled a crank or crack pot. 

Even a well respected scientist is likely to get the crackpot treatment... see Avi Lobe for an example. 

Science or scientists have been told that alien life visiting us is not possible for so long and the military has reinforced this idea via ridicule and with holding funding that no one can seriously undertake any investigation due to quite a bit more than lack of data.  

1 hour ago, swansont said:

The military data you don't have access to wasn't collected under controlled conditions, either.

The data the military gathers is all we have and the culture of secrecy that runs the military makes and keeps things secrete just for the sake of secrecy. There are secrets being kept from WW1 that little kids know about but the US military keeps them "top" secret. The one most often talked about is the secret writing via lemon juice and a candle. 

Data collected by the military on UFOs back in the 40s, 50s and 60s is still classified top secret! How could protecting military secrets be a justified reason to keep those things secret?  

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Again, "qualified by science" and who collects it isn't inherently the issue (unless you're a known charlatan)

Report a UFO and you immediately become a known charlatan.  

Even if the military has a real problem with any adversary finding out how they obtained the data there should be no reason why scientists, under conditions of secrecy, couldn't be allowed access to the data. The results could be published without compromising the details of how the data was obtained. 

If a well respected group of scientists came forward to say they have been shown the results of the data and those results do not suggest anything other than mundane sources for UAPs I'd accept it. I know many wouldn't but many on both sides of this issue would refuse to consider any data that disagreed with their forgone conclusion. 

All I know for sure is that far too many "sightings" are completely unexplained often despite an embarrassing wealth of data.

If UAPs represent actual extraterrestrial space or aircraft then we are at a considerable disadvantage, any and all data we receive is controlled first by the aliens then that is filtered through a military obsessed with secrecy, then that is filtered through the culture of disrespect fostered by the gov, military, science, and then by society in general. 

This issue is going to be a thorn in the side of society until the culture of secrecy for the sake of secrecy is stopped. Secrecy can become malignant when it becomes too powerful, imagine how progress is can be retarded by unnecessary secrecy, so much of this crazy story has a life of its own and is becoming disruptive to our society. How long before the disruption harms our society?       

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

Hey we're just some guys talking online.  I don't think you're in the tinfoil hat brigade, nor is anybody else among the regulars here.  It's a speculation thread so there's no reputational stake in speculating. 

I appreciate that but the general attitude in all of these UFO threads has been a lack of respect, general dismissal of the topic and any evidence out of hand. No picture is good enough to even be considered, unless of course it's a really good picture then it's obviously has to be a hoax. This is not an accusation of you personally!  

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

I couldn't personally assess the severity of hiding data (versus, say, just bureaucratic rules being followed by office drones who had no interest in expediting scientific sharing of info).  I grew up a few miles from where Hynek's family was from, knew people in that community, have heard nothing but good things about his integrity and allegiance to principles of sound science and objectivity.  I think he did a good job of pointing out procedural problems and misdirected resources with Project Blue Book.

I think Hynek's legacy was demeaned badly and unfairly mostly because he decided to point out the deceptions of the military. 

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

I sometimes wonder if politicians like UAP hearings as a means of distraction from the obvious failure of Congress to do its job.

In this case i highly suspect the issue is being used to obfuscate the current government issues we are currently having. 

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

KAOS - should someone enlist the help of Maxwell Smart?

I rather liked 99!