Aliens from space (split from Time to talk about UFO's or now as the military calls them UAP's?)

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Does it not bother you to assume things like the oxygen flow could make multiple individuals across multiple aircraft see the same hallucinations at the same time? To be honest I think something like Saint Elmo's Fire is the best explanation or none alien explanation but that is just speculation as well.  

To clarify, I don't think hypoxia is likely, I was just giving examples of how science eliminates red herrings.  It would be like fingerprinting all the friends of a homicide - you may not suspect them at all, you are just eliminating them more decisively.  Then one can focus on optical f/x in the atmosphere (or other) with more confidence.  Since some tiny fraction of UFO reports did relate to pilot hypoxia, it cleans up your search field to eliminate it.  

 

Edited May 5 by TheVat

[Moontanman]

3 minutes ago, TheVat said:

To clarify, I don't think hypoxia is likely, I was just giving examples of how science eliminates red herrings.  It would be like fingerprinting all the friends of a homicide - you may not suspect them at all, you are just eliminating them more decisively.  Then one can focus on optical f/x in the atmosphere (or other) with more confidence.  Since some tiny fraction of UFO reports did relate to pilot hypoxia, it cleans up your search field to eliminate it.  

 

But how can you eliminate it by listing it as a reasonable cause? 

[TheVat]

Just now, Moontanman said:

But how can you eliminate it by listing it as a reasonable cause? 

It isn't reasonable, it's just one extra low-P thing to cross off the list. And I meant more in ongoing investigations.  One can't inspect equipment or give post-flight physicals to people in the 1940s.  I just meant investigators should strive to rule out even unlikely scenarios so that the investigation data isn't tainted later because someone says oh they didn't eliminate that.  E.g. if something caused a short in some industrial equipment, I would think a cat crawling in there was improbable but I'd still check for burned fur or whatever.  

[Moontanman]

4 minutes ago, TheVat said:

It isn't reasonable, it's just one extra low-P thing to cross off the list. And I meant more in ongoing investigations.  One can't inspect equipment or give post-flight physicals to people in the 1940s.  I just meant investigators should strive to rule out even unlikely scenarios so that the investigation data isn't tainted later because someone says oh they didn't eliminate that.  E.g. if something caused a short in some industrial equipment, I would think a cat crawling in there was improbable but I'd still check for burned fur or whatever.  

I see your point.

[swansont]

6 hours ago, Eise said:

The 'why'  is of course also speculative.

Not really. We know some of the reasons. The US military is secretive by nature, because revealing information can compromise their mission. Even unclassified information is held close to the vest - “For Official Use Only” (FOUO) and “Sensitive but Unclassified” used to be designations, which gave way to Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI). 

The effort to not reveal certain UAP information is because you could reveal the capability of some craft, but also your ability to detect such craft or what somebody was doing when they gathered the data. The military hierarchy takes national security quite seriously.

[Moontanman]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

Not really. We know some of the reasons. The US military is secretive by nature, because revealing information can compromise their mission. Even unclassified information is held close to the vest - “For Official Use Only” (FOUO) and “Sensitive but Unclassified” used to be designations, which gave way to Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI). 

The effort to not reveal certain UAP information is because you could reveal the capability of some craft, but also your ability to detect such craft or what somebody was doing when they gathered the data. The military hierarchy takes national security quite seriously.

Yes they take national security so seriously they would rather allow rumors of aliens to spread instead of revealing old sightings that were really the Air Force but since it was deemed secret 60 years ago it must still be kept secret today. 

I know my mind could be changed if the military came out and showed us these things that do not need to be secret any longer and keeping them secret today is still important enough to lie and deceive even decades after the secret is no longer worth keeping. 

[swansont]

6 hours ago, Eise said:

Hay, I once saw a UFO!

As have I, though it was later identified. But at the time, I didn’t know what it was. I understand the reaction of “what the hell is that?” when it’s something you’re not used to seeing. Before sunrise, a large white, shimmering blob on the horizon - not the moon but the moon illusion was in play. I was driving, so it was tough to assess its motion. 
It’s one of the reasons I ask how people know how big an item was, because you can’t tell without some kind of reference. You can’t actually tell how fast it was moving.

Later identified as an Army blimp moving up the Potomac. It had lots of lights so nobody would run into it.

11 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Yes they take national security so seriously they would rather allow rumors of aliens to spread instead of revealing old sightings that were really the Air Force but since it was deemed secret 60 years ago it must still be kept secret today. 

Yes, they would rather obey the law than lose their pension and go to jail

11 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I know my mind could be changed if the military came out and showed us these things that do not need to be secret any longer and keeping them secret today is still important enough to lie and deceive even decades after the secret is no longer worth keeping. 

But you aren’t in a position to know that they don’t need to be secret any longer.

[swansont]

7 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Did he admit his mistake and correct it or sit and insist he was correct despite the evidence? AFAIK making a mistake in science is not a sin.

You should read the link I provided. He doubled- and tripled-down on his claims after it was shown that they had no basis in fact. You should become familiar with this saga; he’s not an example of undeserved criticism. 

[MigL]

7 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I found out that there were many sightings that were not "lights in the sky" but actual sightings of structured objects, often at close range in broad daylight, radar sightings, multiple independent radar detections, multiple independent witnesses, and the witnesses were not always ignorant rednecks getting anal Probes. 

As I was the one who made( what I thought was ) lighthearted comment about rednecks and anal probing, I feel I should respond,

Would an alien civilization that possesses technology to travel the stars, and that doesn't want to be detected, not have some sort of visual stealth technology, or at least, radar stealth technology, like we already have ?
Maybe we should then stick to more probable terrestrial phenomena.

And I know you're feeling a little 'ganged-up' on, and maybe getting a little irritated,but I think you missed the point of Dimreepr's post.
There are similarly many unexplained phenomena which some people attribute to ghosts. that these phenomena actually involve ghosts is equally unlikely.
Or are you suggesting we should also investigate ghosts, as they remain unexplained ?

With respect to US military ( DARPA ) secrets, in the 1980s the military began investigating stealth technology that eventually resulted in the L-M F-117/F-22/F-35, and the N-G B-2/YF-23/B21. 
These involved demonstrator projects, and since stealth tech was in its infancy, it involved crude, almost non-flyable shapes that were optimized for as much stealth as they could get.
The L-M Have Blue demonstrator had a diamond shaped planform, with all angles optimizwd for least reflection, and would have been unflyable if not for computer-controlled fly-by-wire.
The N-G Tacit Blue demonstrator had an inverted bathtub shape to the fuselage, but normal wings/control surfaces, as N-G was interested in the flying wing/blended body approach to their B-2 design.
Both are now declassified, and you can google pics of both.

I wonder how either of those would have looked to a crop-duster pilot who happened to spot one ?
And would the military have admitted what it was ?
Th

[Moontanman]

25 minutes ago, MigL said:

As I was the one who made( what I thought was ) lighthearted comment about rednecks and anal probing, I feel I should respond,

Quote

Not really that trope is quite commonly used an I wasn't referring specifically to you. 

Would an alien civilization that possesses technology to travel the stars, and that doesn't want to be detected, not have some sort of visual stealth technology, or at least, radar stealth technology, like we already have ?

Quote

I honestly have no idea.

Maybe we should then stick to more probable terrestrial phenomena.

Quote

Maybe we should go where the evidence leads instead of worrying about how probable the destination is. 

And I know you're feeling a little 'ganged-up' on, and maybe getting a little irritated,but I think you missed the point of Dimreepr's post.

Quote

I think you missed the point of his sniper posts. 

There are similarly many unexplained phenomena which some people attribute to ghosts. that these phenomena actually involve ghosts is equally unlikely.

Quote

Are you genuinely suggesting that ghosts are just as likely as aliens... in what universe? 

Or are you suggesting we should also investigate ghosts, as they remain unexplained ?

Quote

Ghosts can and are investigated by everyone from scientists to preachers, no one gets ridiculed for doing so, its not a career killer to suggest the study of ghosts... none have been found, in fact an amazing amount of evidence has been accumulated that ghosts are phantoms of our minds and no place else. If you are interested the rabbit hole is deep and full of side tunnels that lead no place but research has been done and is available.

With respect to US military ( DARPA ) secrets, in the 1980s the military began investigating stealth technology that eventually resulted in the L-M F-117/F-22/F-35, and the N-G B-2/YF-23/B21. 
These involved demonstrator projects, and since stealth tech was in its infancy, it involved crude, almost non-flyable shapes that were optimized for as much stealth as they could get.
The L-M Have Blue demonstrator had a diamond shaped planform, with all angles optimizwd for least reflection, and would have been unflyable if not for computer-controlled fly-by-wire.
The N-G Tacit Blue demonstrator had an inverted bathtub shape to the fuselage, but normal wings/control surfaces, as N-G was interested in the flying wing/blended body approach to their B-2 design.
Both are now declassified, and you can google pics of both.

I wonder how either of those would have looked to a crop-duster pilot who happened to spot one ?
And would the military have admitted what it was ?
Th

 

 

If that happened wouldn't have been better to tell that crop duster what his sighting actually was once the stealth aircraft was declassified instead of perpetrating the deception of UFOs? 

42 minutes ago, swansont said:

You should read the link I provided. He doubled- and tripled-down on his claims after it was shown that they had no basis in fact. You should become familiar with this saga; he’s not an example of undeserved criticism. 

To be honest I hadn't been following Avi very closely of late, but if you are correct then I withdraw my exception to ridiculing Avi Loeb

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Yes, they would rather obey the law than lose their pension and go to jail

I am not talking about whistle blowers, although there are plenty of them, I was talking about the gov declassifying them officially. 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

But you aren’t in a position to know that they don’t need to be secret any longer.

80 years is a long time for a tech secret to kept, wow can't reveal how to make a nuclear bomb... oh wait it's on YouTube and actually allowed by the the gov... wow UFOs must be some strong secrets. 

[MigL]

4 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

If that happened wouldn't have been better to tell that crop duster what his sighting actually was once the stealth aircraft was declassified

A lot of this stuff was declassified a little over ten years ago.

The Area 51 File: Secret Aircraft and Soviet MiGs | National Security Archive (gwu.edu)

What would you have told him in the intervening 30 years ?
Probably that it was a weather balloon or atmospheric anomaly.
I don't think they ever claimed these unidentified events were of alien origin.
( maybe Earthly alien, as in foreign, such as Chinese 'weather/spy' balloons )

[swansont]

8 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

80 years is a long time for a tech secret to kept, wow can't reveal how to make a nuclear bomb... oh wait it's on YouTube and actually allowed by the the gov... wow UFOs must be some strong secrets. 

Being on youtube doesn’t mean it’s not classified. Leaking doesn’t declassify. We weren’t allowed to view websites with leaked info (Assange/Snowden) because you can’t have classified info on an unclassified machine, and it’s a royal pain dealing with the situation (called spillage)

It’s also possible that a Youtube video doesn’t have all the salient details, which might be the classified part. Lots of classified documents have unclassified info in them; they’re classified at the highest level of information that appears.

17 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I am not talking about whistle blowers, although there are plenty of them, I was talking about the gov declassifying them officially. 

Leakers are not whistleblowers; that has a specific meaning in a legal sense, to which the whistleblower laws apply.

[Moontanman]

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

Being on youtube doesn’t mean it’s not classified. Leaking doesn’t declassify. We weren’t allowed to view websites with leaked info (Assange/Snowden) because you can’t have classified info on an unclassified machine, and it’s a royal pain dealing with the situation (called spillage)

There are videos being shown that detail how a nuclear bomb works, even fusion bombs, the excuse used is that the info is already in the public domain and yes these vids are approved by the gov. 

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

It’s also possible that a Youtube video doesn’t have all the salient details, which might be the classified part. Lots of classified documents have unclassified info in them; they’re classified at the highest level of information that appears.

It's possible that the info is no longer considered classified as well. 

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

Leakers are not whistleblowers; that has a specific meaning in a legal sense, to which the whistleblower laws apply.

I'm not talking about leakers either, I am saying specifically that the gov should come out and admit to being behind specific UFO sightings by declassifying the source behind specific sightings. If military tech is behind UFO sightings then let us know which sightings exactly, I can think of a couple right off the top of my head that would shake the idea of aliens off the ledger. Stepping up and admitting responsibility for specific encounters would go a long way to convincing people like me for sure. 

I have read of the SR71  black bird being responsible for a hand full of specific sightings in the south eastern US due to maneuvers the black bird engaged  in to gain speed for its flights. I saw one of them and I don't say it was a UFO die to that revelation. It was impressive btw. 

I was surf fishing with a few of my buddies, it was after dark and the sky was lit up with an aircraft that was traveling south along the coast almost directly over head. It lit up like a glowing UFO would be expected to. You could see the fire trails it let as it speed over head going from horizon to horizon in just a couple minutes. It was just after it had become completely dark. 

One of my Buddies had been a mechanic in the Aur force and his job had been maintenance of the SR71 for several years. He immediately recognized it as an SR71, or so he said later. SR71 was what I thought of immediately as well but I am quite critical of what I see and most of the others just thought they'ed seen an alien space craft. 

A few years later this maneuver was released to the public in a not well know paper at the time but I read it and when I talked to my buddy about it sad he had recognized the SR71 and like me thought it was flying so high it was still in sunlight as it traveled at the edge of the atmosphere. He had remembers his security oath and had, at the time, not told any of us what he suspected. Turned out we were both right and we also told the guys were had been fishing with what we found out as well. This sighting had been the talk of the guys we had been fishing with for several years... I talked about it less than a year ago with one of the guy who had been there.  It made a big impression on all of us. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

There are videos being shown that detail how a nuclear bomb works, even fusion bombs, the excuse used is that the info is already in the public domain and yes these vids are approved by the gov. 

How something works is not the same as how it’s built. I can tell you, in some detail, how an atomic clock works. It’s not enough information to build one.

[Moontanman]

33 minutes ago, swansont said:

How something works is not the same as how it’s built. I can tell you, in some detail, how an atomic clock works. It’s not enough information to build one.

A fission "bamboo" (this is auto correct at work, I ducking hate auto correct) is not to difficult to make, I bet money if I was given a metal work shop and enough plutonium I could make a low yield device. Devastate a few city blocks at least. I'd die from radioactive contamination but if a man can use a screw driver to cause a almost detonation that killed him I think could do it as well. Uranium might be easier to do, I'd have to go back a reread the papers I've read to be sure.  The trigger would be the hardest part to replecate but given enough uranium 235 I bet I could do it. shit shit shit, now I hear the black helicopters coming!

[MigL]

Atomic weapons are different.
You don't need to control the know-how, if you can control access to the fissile material.

Have you tried getting some Plutonium or enriched Uranium ?
That's when the black choppers will land on your front lawn, and you'll disappear.

[TheVat]

 

One aspect of investigation of anomalies is asking how credible witnesses can have their perceptions tampered with. (e.g. ghost sightings in haunted houses are more prevalent where black mold infestation is more common) 

Anyone can be fooled by optical phenomena.  Though I had in my younger days interests in photography, astronomy, and various optical phenomena, I was utterly baffled one foggy night going down a quiet country road as a cluster of red glowing balls appeared ahead and slowly rose into the air as I moved towards them.  It took a while for my WTF moment to give way to comprehension.  If they had been flashing, and there hadn't been fog, I would have understood right away that I was approaching a wind turbine farm.  But there was some glitch that night in the electronics that set the normal strobe rate (30/m).  So the FAA-required beacons were stuck on, shining continuously.  So what would normally be flashing red dots atop distinguishable turbine towers were turned by fog into slowly ascending glowing red balls. 

A few years later the utility company, in response to complaints from farmers, put in Aircraft Detection Lighting Systems (ADLS), which use radar systems that only turn on turbine lights when an aircraft is approaching the wind farm.  

 

[Mordred]

There is 195 Countries in the World. Plenty of those countries also have UFO sightings. They all have their own policies on classified information. So how can secrecy through classification have any real meaning on UFO's ?

They also have their own research programs 

Edited May 6 by Mordred

[Moontanman]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Atomic weapons are different.
You don't need to control the know-how, if you can control access to the fissile material.

Have you tried getting some Plutonium or enriched Uranium ?
That's when the black choppers will land on your front lawn, and you'll disappear.

I was just paraphrasing something I read many years ago that suggested that given fissile material a low yield bomb could have been made as far back as the middle ages. I thought it outrageous at the time but over the years the reality of the control of fissile material, as you say, is the key, the tech isn't all that complicated. 

After looking into it since I read that article I've found many detailed drawings of nukes in the literature and the most mysterious part of them was the "trigger" eventually I found out what that was as well. 

I don't want to die of radiation poisoning from hubris. 

1 hour ago, Mordred said:

There is 195 Countries in the World. Plenty of those countries also have UFO sightings. They all have their own policies on classified information. So how can secrecy through classification have any real meaning on UFO's ?

They also have their own research programs 

I discussed this with swansont, the US is not the end all be all of UFO reports, many countries have their own sightings and some even have their own investigation programs. It has been suggested that that many smaller countries as in South and Central America defer to the US to the point of letting the US military into their country when a sighting needs to be investigated. Nothing but anecdotal reports on this but countries like Great Briton, Australia, Canada and NATO have been suggested to be inside the US control when UFOs are involved, again nothing official I am aware of.   Russia certainly has their own program, as does France which of course goes against the claim of NATO deferring to the US. Almost certainly most of what I see and hear is filtered by the influence of the US gov. 

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

One aspect of investigation of anomalies is asking how credible witnesses can have their perceptions tampered with. (e.g. ghost sightings in haunted houses are more prevalent where black mold infestation is more common)

Quote

There is some interesting research into the way a building or room distorts sound can contribute to the hallucinations of ghosts. A famous Place in England, an underground tunnel of some sort, has been shown experimentally to invoke these hallucinations in people in these underground rooms. In the dark many people start to hallucinate in these tunnels hence their reputation of being haunted!  

Anyone can be fooled by optical phenomena.  Though I had in my younger days interests in photography, astronomy, and various optical phenomena, I was utterly baffled one foggy night going down a quiet country road as a cluster of red glowing balls appeared ahead and slowly rose into the air as I moved towards them.  It took a while for my WTF moment to give way to comprehension.  If they had been flashing, and there hadn't been fog, I would have understood right away that I was approaching a wind turbine farm.  But there was some glitch that night in the electronics that set the normal strobe rate (30/m).  So the FAA-required beacons were stuck on, shining continuously.  So what would normally be flashing red dots atop distinguishable turbine towers were turned by fog into slowly ascending glowing red balls.

Quote

Agreed, I've seen odd lighting effects in fog, we have an icy fog around her that is especially weird. 

 A few years later the utility company, in response to complaints from farmers, put in Aircraft Detection Lighting Systems (ADLS), which use radar systems that only turn on turbine lights when an aircraft is approaching the wind farm.  

 

That is a cool way to deal with the issue!

[StringJunky]

8 hours ago, TheVat said:

One aspect of investigation of anomalies is asking how credible witnesses can have their perceptions tampered with. (e.g. ghost sightings in haunted houses are more prevalent where black mold infestation is more common) 

When the input signal is too low or confusing, the brain will make something up. That's how pareidolia works.

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, Moontanman said:

A TV show is not evidence, show me scientific evidence of ghosts.

It's essentially doing what you are, it presents compelling anecdotal testimonials, often with multiple sources, and presents it for consideration of the audience and two scientist's, one a believer and one a denier.

It's a bit rich to demand scientific evidence in the context of this discussion.  

[swansont]

11 hours ago, Moontanman said:

A fission "bamboo" (this is auto correct at work, I ducking hate auto correct) is not to difficult to make, I bet money if I was given a metal work shop and enough plutonium I could make a low yield device.

Plutonium being famously available in every corner drugstore.

If what you claim were true, we’d be awash in nuclear weapons - every country and radical group would already have them. 

[StringJunky]

11 minutes ago, swansont said:

Plutonium being famously available in every corner drugstore.

 Also 10Kg of it at about $4000/g.

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

It's essentially doing what you are, it presents compelling anecdotal testimonials, often with multiple sources, and presents it for consideration of the audience and two scientist's, one a believer and one a denier.

It's a bit rich to demand scientific evidence in the context of this discussion.  

Yeah more drive-by nonsense! Keep it up , "Make my Point" 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

Yeah more drive-by nonsense! Keep it up , "Make my Point" 

Your point being???

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I don't want to die of radiation poisoning from hubris.

Hubris won't kill you, it just makes you unhappy, until you die wondering...