Hijack from What If the Earth needed Global Warming in its Atmosphere.

[Bill McC]

Water and Antimony being the only two substances on earth that expand upon cooling, make them fascinating substances with very interesting roles both in nature and in man's industrial endeavors.  If you have ever gone deep in tropical waters, you know that the warm blanket of water above keeps that water below cool. It floats up there like oil on water.

If you go to the arctic, break through the ice, and go deep, you find 38 to 40 degree Fahrenheit water just under the ice, which may be -50 degrees on its surface. Ice is an excellent insulator. If water were not most dense in the 38 to 40-degree range, during the winter in the arctic, the night sky would absorb just about any amount of heat the earth had, the warmest water would continue to rise and cool until the whole mass of the ocean water to the ocean floor froze solid. That ice would not melt again and would cause an ice cap down to NY. 

When winter sets in, in the arctic, the arctic air absorbs heat from the ocean, causing the cold water to create a blanket of cold water over the 38-40 degree water, the colder water rides on top of the 38 to 40 degree water, like oil on water, until it freezes solid at the surface further protecting the warm water below. 

The scientist that made this observation over two hundred years ago called it God's thermostat. He was an excellent chemist and did not realize this or its importance until later in life; he was humbled by the universe's subtleties that create rather powerful, far-reaching effects. Many of those old chemists made fluorine and purified it in lead retorts; it is amazing any of them lived to tell about it. I would bet that if an American university tried it, they would lose most of their students and professors in the science department. 

If you take wax and melt it, as you add more solid wax to the liquid wax, it sinks to the bottom. The same is true of all metals except Antimony. When you add solid Antimony to a molten pot of Antimony it floats. Just like solid water/ice floats on molten water. When you add other solid metals to a crucible in their pure molten states, the solid form sinks in the liquid. 
They use Antimony for this property in typeset as it cools in the typeset mold. It expands unlike other metals and presses against the mold to form a perfect character. It is also a common additive in lead, silver, and tin solders to help create a better bond between substances soldered with it. 

We need to refrain from allowing contamination into the waters that could take this property away from water. Substances like vinegar cause water to loose that property as well as anti-freeze and others. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Bill McC

[exchemist]

31 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

Water and Antimony being the only two substances on earth that expand upon cooling, make them fascinating substances with very interesting roles both in nature and in man's industrial endeavors.  If you have ever gone deep in tropical waters, you know that the warm blanket of water above keeps that water below cool. It floats up there like oil on water.

If you go to the arctic, break through the ice, and go deep, you find 38 to 40 degree Fahrenheit water just under the ice, which may be -50 degrees on its surface. Ice is an excellent insulator. If water were not most dense in the 38 to 40-degree range, during the winter in the arctic, the night sky would absorb just about any amount of heat the earth had, the warmest water would continue to rise and cool until the whole mass of the ocean water to the ocean floor froze solid. That ice would not melt again and would cause an ice cap down to NY. 

When winter sets in, in the arctic, the arctic air absorbs heat from the ocean, causing the cold water to create a blanket of cold water over the 38-40 degree water, the colder water rides on top of the 38 to 40 degree water, like oil on water, until it freezes solid at the surface further protecting the warm water below. 

The scientist that made this observation over two hundred years ago called it God's thermostat. He was an excellent chemist and did not realize this or its importance until later in life; he was humbled by the universe's subtleties that create rather powerful, far-reaching effects. Many of those old chemists made fluorine and purified it in lead retorts; it is amazing any of them lived to tell about it. I would bet that if an American university tried it, they would lose most of their students and professors in the science department. 

If you take wax and melt it, as you add more solid wax to the liquid wax, it sinks to the bottom. The same is true of all metals except Antimony. When you add solid Antimony to a molten pot of Antimony it floats. Just like solid water/ice floats on molten water. When you add other solid metals to a crucible in their pure molten states, the solid form sinks in the liquid. 
They use Antimony for this property in typeset as it cools in the typeset mold. It expands unlike other metals and presses against the mold to form a perfect character. It is also a common additive in lead, silver, and tin solders to help create a better bond between substances soldered with it. 

We need to refrain from allowing contamination into the waters that could take this property away from water. Substances like vinegar cause water to loose that property as well as anti-freeze and others. 

This seems to be incorrect. So far as I am aware, antimony does not expand on freezing. You may be thinking of bismuth.

And silicon and gallium also do this - along with water.

Antimony was indeed used in typesetting, but alloyed with lead, not on its own, in order to reduce the degree of shrinkage on cooling, as well as to make a harder alloy to resist damage in the printing process. It did not cause expansion. 

 

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

As this seems to have little to do with the original thread, it has been split

 

 

[Bill McC]

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

This seems to be incorrect. So far as I am aware, antimony does not expand on freezing. You may be thinking of bismuth.

And silicon and gallium also do this - along with water.

Antimony was indeed used in typesetting, but alloyed with lead, not on its own, in order to reduce the degree of shrinkage on cooling, as well as to make a harder alloy to resist damage in the printing process. It did not cause expansion. 

 

Antimony expands, increases its mass upon becoming a solid. Not sure why you would attack that. It is just like ice. Ice can bend metal if it is in a metal container upon the water becoming a solid. 

I see now they have a list of other metals and substances that also do this. Years ago, I could only find water and antimony. I will check out Bismuth. It is used for bearings in air compressors as a bronze bi-metal. Thanks. 

[MigL]

11 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

Antimony ... increases its mass upon becoming a solid.

Whaaaat ?

[Janus]

1 hour ago, Bill McC said:

Antimony expands, increases its mass upon becoming a solid. Not sure why you would attack that. It is just like ice. Ice can bend metal if it is in a metal container upon the water becoming a solid. 

I see now they have a list of other metals and substances that also do this. Years ago, I could only find water and antimony. I will check out Bismuth. It is used for bearings in air compressors as a bronze bi-metal. Thanks. 

Antimony density as a solid: 6.697 g/cm^3.   As a liquid: 6.53 g/cm^3.  Another way of expressing this is that 1g would have a volume of  0.15314 cc as a liquid, and 0.149320 cc as a solid.

Since the mass would remain the same while going from liquid to solid, it would take up less volume after doing so.

Bismuth, as a solid has a density of 9.78g/cm^3 as a solid, and 10.05g/cm^3 as a liquid.  It's density goes down going from liquid to solid, and this its volume per unit mass goes up.

[Bill McC]

Water is the only substance we know of that in its liquid state expands when it approaches its freezing point. There is evidence that silicon is a liquid in what we currently call it's solid-state, but there is too much conflicting information for me to pick a side and call it the accurate side. Highly educated sorts have stated that silicon is a solid, not a liquid, and stories of old glass moving due to gravity, pressure, and time were just poor castings. So I am not going to take a stand one way or the other at this time. Antimony used to expand upon freezing; perhaps it had some contaminants like bismuth in it? But it did expand upon freezing; they add it to silver bearing low-temperature solders for that reason, or so they claimed. Also, where you mine your Antimony and the contaminates in it may also play a role. 
I am curious where you get your information about Antimony's density and the range of temperatures for which you are referring. As Antimony starts to solidify, it expands, so if you are talking about a one-degree differential, you might be incorrect. If you are talking about a  1000 degree differential, you may be right. Antimony differs from water in that way. Antimony expands while it is solidifying in a semi-solid state and shrinks while it is melting. So it happens over a narrow range of temperature. You must have this information to make such a statement. You could claim that water at 100 degrees is almost the same density as water at 33 degrees Fahrenheit and hide the importance of the water's ability to float on itself when it is colder than 38-40 degrees Fahrenheit. 

Consider that at room temperature, Antimony is almost 1,000 degrees cooler than at its melting point. I think that 1,000 degrees from the density you listed for room temperature solid Antimony would cause it to expand some as it approached its melting point wouldn’t you? 

Technical information often leaves out the subtle differences of time and range. Even though the temperature range may be right, there is a time that it takes for the substance to equalize and change state. Antimony changes density upon solidifying, so as it cools, it expands as a solid or semi-solid. You would have to know what temperature ranges to which you are referring.

[MigL]

Technical information, is just that, and it is readily available.
None of your above post has anything to do with the fact that Antimony has a lower density as a liquid than as a solid.
In other words, it will 'freeze' from the bottom up, as the liquid form is cooled.

Notice that people using scientific methodology, identify the density as the property in question.
No-one who knows any science would ever say it increases/decreases its mass on becoming a solid.

[Bill McC]

2 hours ago, Janus said:

Antimony density as a solid: 6.697 g/cm^3.   As a liquid: 6.53 g/cm^3.  Another way of expressing this is that 1g would have a volume of  0.15314 cc as a liquid, and 0.149320 cc as a solid.

Since the mass would remain the same while going from liquid to solid, it would take up less volume after doing so.

Bismuth, as a solid has a density of 9.78g/cm^3 as a solid, and 10.05g/cm^3 as a liquid.  It's density goes down going from liquid to solid, and this its volume per unit mass goes up.

 

1 minute ago, MigL said:

Technical information, is just that, and it is readily available.
None of your above post has anything to do with the fact that Antimony has a lower density as a liquid than as a solid.
In other words, it will 'freeze' from the bottom up, as the liquid form is cooled.

Notice that people using scientific methodology, identify the density as the property in question.
No-one who knows any science would ever say it increases/decreases its mass on becoming a solid.

So you can explain why 1000 degrees does not cause Antimony to expand from it room temperature density? 

[MigL]

You seem pretty sure that it doesn't, yet ...

Assuming you mean 1000^oC, and not some other temperature scale ( science attempts to be exact/specific; so should you if you want to be taken seriously ), Antimony melts at about 630^oC, so it will be a less dense liquid at 1000^oC.

IOW, its volume will increase slightly, by the ratio given by Janus previously ( 1.025 : 1 going from solid to liquid )

Before further embarassing yourself, you might want to read up on Antimony

Antimony - Wikipedia

as you sem somewhat confused about it

Edited April 23, 2021 by MigL

[Bill McC]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

You seem pretty sure that it doesn't, yet ...

Assuming you mean 1000^oC, and not some other temperature scale ( science attempts to be exact/specific; so should you if you want to be taken seriously ), Antimony melts at about 630^oC, so it will be a less dense liquid at 1000^oC.

IOW, its volume will increase slightly, by the ratio given by Janus previously ( 1.025 : 1 going from solid to liquid )

Before further embarassing yourself, you might want to read up on Antimony

Antimony - Wikipedia

as you sem somewhat confused about it

I speak in Fahrenheit; Antimony melts at about 1,167 degrees Fahrenheit 630.30 degrees Celcius. The temperature quoted for Antimony's density of 6.68 grams per cubic centimeter is for its room temperature density at 77 degrees Fahrenheit 25 degrees Celsius, which is just slightly over the density at the melting point of 6.53 grams per cubic centimeter when molten. There is over a 1,000-degree Fahrenheit difference there, over a 600 degree Celsius difference there, not to mention the enlargement, increase in mass, and drop in density upon changing states from a solid to a liquid.  So if there is an embarrassment, it is not mine. 
My point is that from your understanding given by you and your understanding of the "scientific data" presented; Antimony does not expand from room temperature density till it sits, still solid at 1,166 degrees Fahrenheit, 630 degrees Celsius. 

Instead of battling me, why not try being civil? The intelligent individual will question, alter his point of view, and bring understanding to a conversation, not cheap shots. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Bill McC
Changed 630.30 to 600

[MigL]

47 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

My point is that from your understanding given by you and your understanding of the "scientific data" presented; Antimony does not expand from room temperature density till it sits, still solid at 1,166 degrees Fahrenheit, 630 degrees Celsius. 

Regular Antimony tends to form a rombohedral crystal structure as a solid. These crystal structures have definite lengths and angles, which are not allowed to change much as long as it remains a crystalline solid.
IOW, until it melts to a liquid !!

You will find almost all crystalline solids act this way.
If you were to actually read some 'scientific data'.

56 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

The intelligent individual will question, alter his point of view, and bring understanding to a conversation, not cheap shots. 

And I would have thought you'd get this after John Cuthber corrected you numerous times in another thread.
Yet you keep telling folksy stories about how you knew ( Le ) 'Roy' Grumman.
Would you consider me an intelligent individual if I told you that I personally knew Jack Nortrop and Clarence 'kelly' johnson of Lockheed?
nd that I helped them come up with stealth?

Because that's what you sound like when you make outlandish, unsupported claims, and then drop names, or the Grumman lunar lander  modules.

[zapatos]

4 hours ago, Bill McC said:

So you can explain why 1000 degrees does not cause Antimony to expand from it room temperature density? 

Sorry, but I'm just a nube. Can you please explain how mass increases when it freezes?

[Bill McC]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Regular Antimony tends to form a rombohedral crystal structure as a solid. These crystal structures have definite lengths and angles, which are not allowed to change much as long as it remains a crystalline solid.
IOW, until it melts to a liquid !!

You will find almost all crystalline solids act this way.
If you were to actually read some 'scientific data'.

And I would have thought you'd get this after John Cuthber corrected you numerous times in another thread.
Yet you keep telling folksy stories about how you knew ( Le ) 'Roy' Grumman.
Would you consider me an intelligent individual if I told you that I personally knew Jack Nortrop and Clarence 'kelly' johnson of Lockheed?
nd that I helped them come up with stealth?

Because that's what you sound like when you make outlandish, unsupported claims, and then drop names, or the Grumman lunar lander  modules.

There used to be a lot of information about Antimony and how it expanded upon cooling right near the melting point. It does some wild color change too. Today on the net, I cannot find much. But regardless if you stated that you knew those other gentlemen and noted some of your finds and matched my reality to some extent or introduced new information, I would be highly impressed. 

There is no such thing as stealth if you use passive devices that read the ambient background radiation and look for blocks to the ambient radiation. Stealth might work on goat herders but would not work against an equal or superior adversary. Radar works by raising the voltage on the plane's surface, the air in particular in contact with it, turning it into a transmitter. It becomes an air capacitor charged to a point the dielectric breaks down on the surface like lightning is formed on a rain cloud surface and reciprocates with a burst of high voltage. If you have ever listened to the radio during a lightning storm, you know you see the light hear the crackle on the radio, and later hear the thunder. By keeping the plane's surface abundant with particles of electricity constantly, the effect is greatly diminished. Benjamin Franklin created the solution to this by using three fireplace balls to create an open-air transistor. He tied one fireplace ball to a ground rod in the ground, the next fireplace ball to an air capacitor charged with an air capacitor to about 30,000 volts, and the third to a copper wire that sat on his hillside home's roof. He was able to stave off the lightning from reaching the grounded ball with this setup. Until he drained the center ball connected to the copper plate air capacitor suspended from the wooden beams of his basement ceiling by fine silk strands. He could turn the lightning on and off by charging and discharging his gate. 

By maintaining a certain abundance of particles of electricity around the plane, there is no ARC-like reciprocation from the air touching a plane's surface. Only electricity stops electricity, and only electricity stops radar. Some prototype stealth reconnaissance planes had fine Tungsten wire built into the composite skins. 

The Russians can hear us coming a long way off with their ultrasonic equipment. Now with drones, they will set up listening stations to give early warnings. So it will come down to jamming and taking out millions of drones. Or a couple of EMP weapons. 

We used drones against Germany. 

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Sorry, but I'm just a nube. Can you please explain how mass increases when it freezes?

  Most metals follow a linear or curved rate of expansion upon heating. As they expand density measured by volume/mass to weight changes, they become less dense per cubic, whatever increment you want to use to measure the cube. Atoms move apart from one another when heated; the atoms vibrate more slowly between cycles, if only because of the distance between them. If you have hit a cold and then a yellow hot piece of metal with a hammer, you know what I am saying. It sounds like a broken bell; when it is yellow hot, you get a thud. 
Antimony, in my world, water, Bismuth, and perhaps some other radioactive elements and silicon as well have a point that this reverses; the chart is no longer linear or a curve; it has a jagged area over a certain temperature range. They get denser as they get hotter; they shrink as they get hotter so you can get more into a cubic whatever. The same is true with water; the water at 32 degrees Fahrenheit is less dense than at 40 degrees Fahrenheit water.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Bill McC
changed laden jar to air capcitor

[zapatos]

40 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

 Most metals follow a linear or curved rate of expansion upon heating. As they expand density measured by volume/mass to weight changes, they become less dense per cubic, whatever increment you want to use to measure the cube. Atoms move apart from one another when heated; the atoms vibrate more slowly between cycles, if only because of the distance between them. If you have hit a cold and then a yellow hot piece of metal with a hammer, you know what I am saying. It sounds like a broken bell; when it is yellow hot, you get a thud. 
Antimony, in my world, water, Bismuth, and perhaps some other radioactive elements and silicon as well have a point that this reverses; the chart is no longer linear or a curve; it has a jagged area over a certain temperature range. They get denser as they get hotter; they shrink as they get hotter so you can get more into a cubic whatever. The same is true with water; the water at 32 degrees Fahrenheit is less dense than at 40 degrees Fahrenheit water.

Why does mass increase just because it shrinks? Does mass decrease when a substance expands?

[Bill McC]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Why does mass increase just because it shrinks? Does mass decrease when a substance expands?

When an object shrinks, Mass/Volume goes down, and the density of the substance the object is made from goes up. Mass/volume increases when a substance expands and the density decreases. It is like popcorn, kernels are dense the popped corn is less dense. You can get 600 hundred kernels into measuring cup, but you need a hefty bag to put the popped corn in. 

[MigL]

The definition of density is Mass/Volume.
Your statements are very confused.

I was being sarcastic about knowing people in the aerospace field, and having contributed to stealth.
But sure enough, you took the bait, and went off on another scatter-brained tangent.

[zapatos]

 

26 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

It is like popcorn, kernels are dense the popped corn is less dense. You can get 600 hundred kernels into measuring cup, but you need a hefty bag to put the popped corn in.

So if I weigh my popcorn before popping, it will weigh less than after I pop it?

[Bill McC]

34 minutes ago, MigL said:

The definition of density is Mass/Volume.
Your statements are very confused.

I was being sarcastic about knowing people in the aerospace field, and having contributed to stealth.
But sure enough, you took the bait, and went off on another scatter-brained tangent.

You cannot even quote me correctly so where do you come off being sarcastic?

31 minutes ago, zapatos said:

 

So if I weigh my popcorn before popping, it will weigh less than after I pop it?

Perhaps a little less minus some water and oils in the kernels used to pop it. But almost the same weight. The volume and mass of the popped corn would be greater, I am using mass in the sense of its volume, not weight or amount of inertial force it has. 

[zapatos]

23 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

Perhaps a little less minus some water and oils in the kernels used to pop it. But almost the same weight. The volume and mass of the popped corn would be greater, I am using mass in the sense of its volume, not weight or amount of inertial force it has. 

Now I'm really confused. You are saying mass and volume are the same thing?

[Bill McC]

17 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

You cannot even quote me correctly so where do you come off being sarcastic?

Perhaps a little less minus some water and oils in the kernels used to pop it. But almost the same weight. The volume and mass of the popped corn would be greater, I am using mass in the sense of its volume, not weight or amount of inertial force it has. 

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

The definition of density is Mass/Volume.
Your statements are very confused.

I was being sarcastic about knowing people in the aerospace field, and having contributed to stealth.
But sure enough, you took the bait, and went off on another scatter-brained tangent.

You have to remember where you are, location, location, location, you are not in the physics or chemistry thread you are in the hijacked thread. Mass here is just the volume. 

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

Mass here is just the volume. 

You use the term "mass" different ways in different threads?

[Bill McC]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

You use the term "mass" different ways in different threads?

I try not to use mass as I know mass as volume. I think in terms of volume, specific gravity, adjusted for temperature. Or density adjusted for temperature. 

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, Bill McC said:

I try not to use mass as I know mass as volume

Why not use mass as mass and volume as volume? They’re different things, after all. You may as well be using banana as apple and celery as cheetah. 

[Bufofrog]

8 hours ago, Bill McC said:

Mass here is just the volume. 

OK... what is the mass of 1 liter?