Crazy New Perspective on Gravity

[GeorgeGF]

Hello, I got the following idea from the observartion of a gravity well, like this one:

https://youtu.be/mgZ84NAW0zU

 

I'd like to know the opinion of a physicist about this. This is a naive, crazy, intuitive, outrageous new perspective on gravity and possibly quantum gravity. It's an out-of-the-box thinking experiment. It's the kind of thing that may be overlooked by highly specialized scientists. Please, go past the first assertion. Is this thing even mathematically viable? Here it goes:

 

1.There's no such thing as a gravitational interaction between masses composed of "normal" matter . Rather, each mass composed of normal matter in our universe interacts gravitationally with a hypothetical, single, huge mass of "exotic" matter. Dark matter, maybe? 

 

2. The gravitational interaction between masses of normal matter and the single, hypothetical big mass of exotic matter would produce the well known spacetime curvature around each mass of normal matter. Small masses of normal matter would get caught in the spacetime curvature of big masses of normal matter. At first sight, It would look like the small masses are being attracted to the big masses, just like the small balls of the gravity well appear to be attracted to the big ball. 

 

3.Such modified gravity might be mediated by a particle (the actual graviton, maybe? ) that might be produced by normal matter, but would interact with exotic matter only. It would be then impossible to detect gravitons with normal matter. In this scenario, a device housing a sample of exotic matter may be needed for detecting gravitons. 

 

4.In this scenario, gravitons might propagate through an additional (4th) spatial dimension.  Our universe would be somewhat like the surface of a hypersphere and the huge mass of exotic matter would be located somewhat in the center of such hypersphere. The actual geometry probably won't be a hypersphere of course. 

 

Thank you very much for your attention, I promise I won't bug you! Feel free to have a hearty laugh with your physicist friends about this! Share it with as many of them as possible! 

Edited May 13, 2021 by GeorgeGF

[swansont]

4 minutes ago, GeorgeGF said:

1.There's no such thing as a gravitational interaction between masses composed of "normal" matter . Rather, each mass composed of normal matter in our universe interacts gravitationally with a hypothetical, single, huge mass of "exotic" matter. Dark matter, maybe? 

 

2. The gravitational interaction between masses of normal matter and the single, hypothetical big mass of exotic matter would produce the well known spacetime curvature around each mass of normal matter. Small masses of normal matter would get caught in the spacetime curvature of big masses of normal matter. At first sight, It would look like the small masses are being attracted to the big masses, just like the small balls of the gravity well appear to be attracted to the big ball. 

What would be the demarcation between these two types of masses? Are asteroids small or exotic? Moons? Comets?

Gravitational interactions have been observed on fairly small masses. Are ~1kg lead spheres normal matter?

 

[GeorgeGF]

Thanks for your reply swansont. The exotic matter would be something like dark matter. Gravitational interaction would occur only between normal matter and exotic matter.

[swansont]

5 minutes ago, GeorgeGF said:

Thanks for your reply swansont. The exotic matter would be something like dark matter. Gravitational interaction would occur only between normal matter and exotic matter.

How do I tell if something is made of normal matter or has exotic matter in it?

[GeorgeGF]

9 minutes ago, swansont said:

How do I tell if something is made of normal matter or has exotic matter in it?

Exotic matter would behave more or less like dark matter and all the exotic matter in the universe would be condensed into one single body made of 100% exotic matter. There wouldn't be any exotic matter in bodies composed of normal matter. Exotic matter might be produced in high-energy particle accelerators but could be extremely unstable.

Edited May 13, 2021 by GeorgeGF

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, GeorgeGF said:

Exotic matter would behave more or less like dark matter and would be condensed into one single body (for the whole universe) made of 100% exotic matter. There wouldn't be any exotic matter in bodies composed of normal matter. Exotic matter might be produced in high-energy particle accelerators but could be extremely unstable.

You’re not answering the question.

How do you determine if something is made of normal matter or exotic matter? I have a rock. How do I tell if it’s normal matter, or how much exotic matter is in it?

[GeorgeGF]

In this scenario, it's assumed that all the observable matter in the universe (as of today) is composed of 100% normal matter. The exotic matter is hypothetical and would be very difficult to observe (like dark matter) and even more difficult to produce. You could be 100% certain that the rock is made entirely of normal matter.  All the exotic matter in the universe would be condensed into one single body. There wouldn't be any exotic matter intermingled with normal matter. The hypothetical exotic matter might be the same as dark matter.

Edited May 13, 2021 by GeorgeGF
Clarification

[GeorgeGF]

Sorry swasont, I tried to reply to your last question but I missed something. This is the answer ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️

[MigL]

This is what happens when you take YouTube videos too seriously ...

You are conflating the 2D analog of 4D space-time, the rubber sheet, and assuming it is stretched around a huge mass ( the Earth, in the analog ) composed of exotic or dark matter ( exotic matter makes no sense ), such that the dimples in the analog sheet are reproduced in space-time. 

While this might reproduce some of the effects of gravity, it most certainly cannot reproduce some of the more exotic effects of GR.
( lets see you try to model a Black Hole from the ubber sheet analogy )

Further, what is the separation between the exotic/dark matter core, and the reduced dimensionality universe of 'real' matter ?
Can matter ( and properties ) be exchanged through this separation ?
( exotic matter has negative energy, and 'repels' gravitationally; that is why it doesn't make sense )

I think you have taken the 'rubber sheet' analogy waaaay too far ...

[swansont]

4 hours ago, GeorgeGF said:

In this scenario, it's assumed that all the observable matter in the universe (as of today) is composed of 100% normal matter. The exotic matter is hypothetical and would be very difficult to observe (like dark matter) and even more difficult to produce. You could be 100% certain that the rock is made entirely of normal matter.  All the exotic matter in the universe would be condensed into one single body. There wouldn't be any exotic matter intermingled with normal matter. The hypothetical exotic matter might be the same as dark matter.

Then your hypothesis predicts that the Cavendish experiment should not have worked - lead spheres should not attract each other. But they did.

[GeorgeGF]

22 hours ago, MigL said:

This is what happens when you take YouTube videos too seriously ...

You are conflating the 2D analog of 4D space-time, the rubber sheet, and assuming it is stretched around a huge mass ( the Earth, in the analog ) composed of exotic or dark matter ( exotic matter makes no sense ), such that the dimples in the analog sheet are reproduced in space-time. 

While this might reproduce some of the effects of gravity, it most certainly cannot reproduce some of the more exotic effects of GR.
( lets see you try to model a Black Hole from the ubber sheet analogy )

Further, what is the separation between the exotic/dark matter core, and the reduced dimensionality universe of 'real' matter ?
Can matter ( and properties ) be exchanged through this separation ?
( exotic matter has negative energy, and 'repels' gravitationally; that is why it doesn't make sense )

I think you have taken the 'rubber sheet' analogy waaaay too far ...

Thanks for your reply MigL. I'm glad you catched the analogy, that's pretty slick actually.  I acknowledge that I might have stretched the rubber sheet analogy way too thin 😁. Maybe the only significant part of my (rudimentary) conjecture is the idea of gravity (between masses of normal matter) as a fictitious force. Gravity looks like an attractive force between bodies of matter, it feels like a force between those bodies and even computes as such, but maybe it's an "illusory" interaction.

If this conjecture is good, it would have to be compatible with relativity theory, or at least compatible with a modified relativity. The black hole simulations offered by relativity would still be valid and there wouldn't be  any reason to start a new simulation from scratch.

I used the "exotic" term loosely, it means that we have no idea about the nature of such matter. I don't expect my conjecture to be 100% true, that would be impossible with my limited knowledge. It occurs to me that the the brightest minds in the field are not lacking any intelligence to solve the gravity conundrum ; maybe they just need a change of perspective... maybe the perspective of a naive outsider.

 

20 hours ago, swansont said:

Then your hypothesis predicts that the Cavendish experiment should not have worked - lead spheres should not attract each other. But they did.

My hypothesis wouldn't contradict the Cavendish experiment at all. It states that the measured forces between the lead balls don't come from any interaction between them. The particular geometry of our universe just makes us believe that there's a force between the lead balls.  The actual force would be produced by the gravitational interaction between matter and the hypothetical body of "exotic" matter.

Edited May 14, 2021 by GeorgeGF

[swansont]

20 minutes ago, GeorgeGF said:

My hypothesis wouldn't contradict the Cavendish experiment at all. It states that the measured forces between the lead balls don't come from any interaction between them. The particular geometry of our universe just makes us believe that there's a force between the lead balls.  The actual force would be produced by the gravitational interaction between matter and the hypothetical body of "exotic" matter.

Which body of exotic matter would explain the results?

[GeorgeGF]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

Which body of exotic matter would explain the results?

Possibly the dark matter that permeates the whole universe.

[swansont]

1 minute ago, GeorgeGF said:

Possibly the dark matter that permeates the whole universe.

That would tend to cancel. It also means you should get attraction to a specific direction/location in space, not toward each other.

Newtonian gravity makes specific predictions, which agree with observation. You need to have an equally precise model to challenge it. Not some hand-wave.

[GeorgeGF]

How would it cancel? The apparent attraction to each other would be explained by the spacetime curvature around each body of matter.

This is the very start of the thought process and I wouldn't be able to express it mathematically. It's hazy, fuzzy, vague but it may have some truth in it. That's why I need the right physicist to take a look at it. I find it a bit frustrating that the brightest minds in the world haven't cracked the problem of the nature of gravity yet, despite being the first force to be acknowledged scientifically. Maybe a change of perspective is needed. I want my interstellar travel and I want it now !  🤣😆

[swansont]

3 minutes ago, GeorgeGF said:

How would it cancel? The apparent attraction to each other would be explained by the spacetime curvature around each body of matter.

You were claiming it permeates space. Any isotropic distribution has no effect.

Any residual effect - which you need to quantify - would be in the direction of any non-isotropic exotic matter. Where is it located? The interaction would vary in direction over a sidereal day, as it’s in the direction of that mass. Is this what is observed?

What is the mathematical expression of this force? 

How much exotic matter is in the earth, attracting satellites? How much is in the moon? I suspect once we start quantifying this relationship, which is an absolute requirement here, this will quickly show inconsistencies.

You need to provide a mathematical model, not hand-waves.

[GeorgeGF]

11 minutes ago, swansont said:

You were claiming it permeates space. Any isotropic distribution has no effect.

Any residual effect - which you need to quantify - would be in the direction of any non-isotropic exotic matter. Where is it located? The interaction would vary in direction over a sidereal day, as it’s in the direction of that mass. Is this what is observed?

What is the mathematical expression of this force? 

How much exotic matter is in the earth, attracting satellites? How much is in the moon? I suspect once we start quantifying this relationship, which is an absolute requirement here, this will quickly show inconsistencies.

You need to provide a mathematical model, not hand-waves.

Right, that's why I propose the hyper sphere geometry. Our universe (the part we can perceive) would be the surface of the hyper sphere and the mass of dark matter would be located in the center of the hypersphere. Each body of matter in our universe would be equally distant from the center of the hyper sphere.

A hand-wave is sadly the farthest I can go 😅

Edited May 14, 2021 by GeorgeGF

[beecee]

27 minutes ago, GeorgeGF said:

Right, that's why I propose the hyper sphere geometry. Our universe (the part we can perceive) would be the surface of the hyper sphere and the mass of dark matter would be located in the center of the hypersphere.

The part we can perceive? That is called the observable universe, which is entailed by "c " and the time that the EMR has had to reach us within the known age of the universe and the expansion rate.

36 minutes ago, GeorgeGF said:

A hand-wave is sadly the farthest I can go 😅

That's nice....as a lay person myself, I re-enforce my knowledge by reading reputable books, then through forums such as this, if there is something I don't understand, I ask questions. The general picture of the evolution of space/time/universe is a model that to me anyway, makes a lot of sense. Prior to t+10-45 seconds, where the BB and laws of physics does fail us, I also have my own hand waving ideas...I speculate that the BB is actualy the arse end of a BH, which we call a White Hole.

48 minutes ago, GeorgeGF said:

 and the mass of dark matter would be located in the center of the hypersphere.

but you also said, 

2 hours ago, GeorgeGF said:

Possibly the dark matter that permeates the whole universe.

 

1 hour ago, GeorgeGF said:

This is the very start of the thought process and I wouldn't be able to express it mathematically. It's hazy, fuzzy, vague but it may have some truth in it. That's why I need the right physicist to take a look at it. I find it a bit frustrating that the brightest minds in the world haven't cracked the problem of the nature of gravity yet, despite being the first force to be acknowledged scientifically. Maybe a change of perspective is needed. I want my interstellar travel and I want it now !  🤣😆

Science creates models that match observational data and tells us what is happening. The why it is happening is another aspect. There is a great little video [only 7 minutes long] that explains what I mean by Richard Feynman. I have linked to it many times, but I also believe it is informative and tells us the role of science....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lL-hXO27Q

The other point I would make is like you, I am relatively mathematically ignorant, and maths being the language of physics, leaves people like you and me, behind the eight ball somewhat. 

I hope you  take the 7.5 minutes to watch the video...quite impressive by an impressive scientist.

In conclusion I would just remind you that while GR is our most accurate model of gravity, it does not [as some people often say] determine that Newtonian gravity is wrong. Newtonian gravity is simply a less accurate model, but accurate enough for us to use every day on Earth, and accurate enough to be the model used in most space endeavours. We could if we wanted to use the more accurate GR, but it does entail much more mathematical equations, to give us the same answer, [but with more accurate results] and is not really needed.

1 hour ago, GeorgeGF said:

I want my interstellar travel and I want it now !  🤣😆

 Join the club!! I'm an old bastard, but still hope I'm around to eventually see boots on Mars....at least!!😉 

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, GeorgeGF said:

A hand-wave is sadly the farthest I can go

Our rules require a model, or falsifiable predictions.