The intent of Israel bombing AP/Al Jazeera offices

[dimreepr]

21 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I understood the first four words, and struggle mightily to find how the rest applies to the discussion.

It's how we go up and down

[StringJunky]

41 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's how we go up and down

When are you going to contribute something of value?

[MigL]

4 hours ago, Phi for All said:

16 hours ago, MigL said:

However, what is needed is for one side or the other to say "Let bygones be bygones", and lay down their weapons.
If the Palestinians do so ( and get rid of Hamas ), there will be a somewhat workable peace.
If the Israelis do so ( and get rid of B Netanyahu ), there will be no more Israel.

So Israel is defined by their intractable, violent nature, and would fail as a nation if they took the first step towards peace? 

Sorry Phi.
Either you misunderstood, or I wasn't clear enough.

If the Palestinians lay down their weapons there will be a somewhat workable peace, as there will be no need for Israeli aggression.
If the Israelis lay down their weapons, they will be at the mercy of their Arab neighbours, like Iran, Syria, etc.
How long do you think they'll last ???

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

Quote

Just exactly how do 3350 rockets ( and counting ) get into Gaza, when the borders are tightly controlled, yet people argue for the relaxation of those controls.

They are homemade.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

You are kicking the can down the road, Sensei.
Where does the explosive material come from ?
Where do the ingredients to make explosive material come from ?
Where does the solid propellant come from ?

These, and most Nitrates, are not household substances.
Yet there are complaints that medical supplies, and essentials for life, are not getting through the border checkpoints?
Maybe spend some of the effort to deliberately smuggle in explosives and rocket propellant to improve people's lives.
That would be a start in the right direction.

Edited May 18, 2021 by MigL

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Sorry Phi.
Either you misunderstood, or I wasn't clear enough.

If the Palestinians lay down their weapons there will be a somewhat workable peace, as there will be no need for Israeli aggression.
If the Israelis lay down their weapons, they will be at the mercy of their Arab neighbours, like Iran, Syria, etc.
How long do you think they'll last ???

Doesn't your scenario rely on Israel giving the unrealistic impression they're simply giving up rather than trying to negotiate a non-violent peace? Assuming the Israelis wouldn't be aggressive without need also assumes that the only obstacle to peace is Palestinian violence, and I don't see how one can defend that reasonably. It's not just my own incredulity, you've even said you don't absolve Israel's leadership from blame. So why can't Israel take the higher road?

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

It's how we go up and down

I use discussion for clarity and focus as I search for a core of understanding. Brevity doesn't equal pithiness, and pithiness doesn't equal understanding, and together they just make things more vague for me. 

[MonDie]

Netanyahu-Israel's government rose to power as what suspiciously resembles a coup government, its retaliations are always disproportionate and reckless, and it gets ample funding and weaponry from the United States, and now we are blocking a UN resolution to condemn its present actions.  This conflict has been a steady, slow-burning fire, but the USA, whose alliance has global strategical implications(?), alongside the Wahabi Saudis and the militaristic Al-Sisi, will bare responsibility when it escalates into a Palestinian genocide whereupon the Iranians will take matters into their own hands.  All roads lead to Iran.

Before the British-American coup of Iran

Couping in Iran, 1953! A Deep Cut With Stephen Kinzer (The Commitee Program/Nomiki Konst)

After the coup, reign of the Shah in Iran, before the second revolution

Iran 1979: Anatomy of a Revolution | Featured Documentary (Al Jazeera) and also "Iran 1979 Legacy of a Revolution" (Al Jazeera)

Palestine and its ally Jordan, another victim of poverty and political violence 

King Hussein of Jordan: On A Knife Edge and part two Survival of a Dynasty (Al Jazeera), but they could use an English dub.

There is apparently a French documentary about Yitzhak Rabine.  Saudi/Israeli alliance, Saudi/Israeli holy sites, Saudi/Israeli political assassinations, and each one killing... its own.

[MigL]

50 minutes ago, MonDie said:

whereupon the Iranians will take matters into their own hands

Iran should tread carefully.
It is common knowledge that they fund Hamas, and are a major factor for the instability of the area,
If push comes to shove, and Israel feels threatened by Iran, we might see the nuclear option being used again.

And what is this crap about proportional response ?
That's not how deterrence works !
If you punch me, and the only thing I can do is punch you back, you might still go ahead and punch me.
But, if the response to you harming me is much, much, worse, you may reconsider your actions.

[CharonY]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

And what is this crap about proportional response ?
That's not how deterrence works !
If you punch me, and the only thing I can do is punch you back, you might still go ahead and punch me.
But, if the response to you harming me is much, much, worse, you may reconsider your actions.

Yes and that is what Israel is doing and obviously we have seen how well that worked. Other than a net increase of human suffering what are the positives? Also what would be the endgame? There is a whole range of other issues beside the attacks on either side, but it is clear that hardliners in Israel only bolster hardliners among Palestinians. 

Quote

These, and most Nitrates, are not household substances.
Yet there are complaints that medical supplies, and essentials for life, are not getting through the border checkpoints?
Maybe spend some of the effort to deliberately smuggle in explosives and rocket propellant to improve people's lives.
That would be a start in the right direction.

Actually the tunnels are also used to smuggle food and medication, but profit margins are likely lower and the volume to value ratio probably too. Also there is that:

Quote

While still having to rely on smuggling parts and raw materials, Hamas leaders say the group has engineered creative workarounds to overcome tighter border controls and surveillance.

A 50-minute documentary broadcast by the Qatari-owned television channel Al Jazeera in September showed rare scenes of Hamas militants recovering dozens of Israeli missiles that had not detonated in previous strikes on Gaza.

They brought the remnants into what looked like a hidden manufacturing facility, carefully extracted the explosives packed inside and recycled some of the parts. The same documentary also showed militants digging up old water pipes from where Israeli settlements used to sit and repurposing the empty cylinders in the production of new rockets.

 

Referring to the repurposed plumbing pipes, while speaking in another gathering in 2019, Mr. Sinwar said, “There is enough there to manufacture rockets for the coming 10 years.”

Also the blockade is not only limiting influx of goods, but also efflux, which has devastated Palestinian economy. I.e. even if they smuggled food it would do little to improve the quality of life in Gaza.

There are many reports on this issue see a recent one here https://unctad.org/news/israeli-occupation-cost-gaza-167-billion-past-decade-unctad-estimates

 

[beecee]

36 minutes ago, CharonY said:

 https://unctad.org/news/israeli-occupation-cost-gaza-167-billion-past-decade-unctad-estimates

from the above link................

"The UN maintains its long-standing position that lasting and comprehensive peace can only be achieved through a negotiated two-state solution".

So that means that obviously to be achievable, both Palastinian Arabs as well as others in the region, plus the Israelies of course must be in agreement with the UN position. Is this the case? If not, then to use an old Aussie saying, the UN is pushing shit uphill.

[MigL]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Yes and that is what Israel is doing and obviously we have seen how well that worked.

So, assume the Israeli response has been 5-fold to the original Hamas offense.
Your argument is, that hasn't worked, maybe Israel should try 1-fold ( proportional ) response.
Others might argue 5-fold hasn't worked, maybe the response should be 10-fold, or even 20-fold, to emphasize the point.

[iNow]

3 hours ago, MigL said:

So, assume the Israeli response has been 5-fold to the original Hamas offense.
Your argument is, that hasn't worked, maybe Israel should try 1-fold ( proportional ) response.
Others might argue 5-fold hasn't worked, maybe the response should be 10-fold, or even 20-fold, to emphasize the point.

Maybe they could just stop forcing people from their homes and stealing the land on which they’ve settled, or not attack them during religious services… or let them have food and vaccines without blocking them. 

[CharonY]

5 hours ago, beecee said:

from the above link................

"The UN maintains its long-standing position that lasting and comprehensive peace can only be achieved through a negotiated two-state solution".

So that means that obviously to be achievable, both Palastinian Arabs as well as others in the region, plus the Israelies of course must be in agreement with the UN position. Is this the case? If not, then to use an old Aussie saying, the UN is pushing shit uphill.

Well, that is the role of the UN, they can propose things but it is up to folks to take it up or not. However, at least they provide a basis for discussion. The idea of a two-state solution has been kicking around since the beginning and has been basically the working plan from the UN. Support came and went from either side of the conflict and has been e.g. part of the Palestinian Declaration of Independence. At least after the Annapolis Conference it is at least in principle agreed upon by Israel and the Palestinian Authority. 

In most recent times, Netanyahu has become a major obstacle with pushing settlements on the West Bank. He is also explicitly against a one-state solution seemingly favoring status quo (a cynical view could be that this is the only move to preserve his power).

Similarly, during many times a two-state solution was favoured among Palestinians and Israelis, often fueled by threat of conflict. Again, it almost seems like the hardliners on each side are feeding each other at the cost of the citizens.

4 hours ago, MigL said:

So, assume the Israeli response has been 5-fold to the original Hamas offense.
Your argument is, that hasn't worked, maybe Israel should try 1-fold ( proportional ) response.
Others might argue 5-fold hasn't worked, maybe the response should be 10-fold, or even 20-fold, to emphasize the point.

Right, so historically how well did it work? What would be the body count where you think folks would be ready to submit? Especially in the last few years (2008-2020; Statista data) the death toll are already 20x among Palestinians over Israelis (not counting injuries and associated death due to loss of medical supply, hospitals etc.). So is the region more peaceful now? Since we have passed your highest levels, how far should they go? 

In contrast, I think it is wrong to have plans that focus on outbreak of violence. When the rockets are flying, it is already too late. Rather I would ask why were the Palestinian families evicted? Wasn't there a way to mitigate? How about strengthening the rights of Palestinians living under occupation to undermine the argument of Hamas? Was storming of the Mosque necessary? And so on. If the whole picture (rather than isolated events) paint the picture of a suppressive regime that clearly favors one group of the population, it is small wonder that there is an ample feeding ground for resentment. 

 

[MigL]

Not that I was proposing an increase in hostilities, but some people ( those directly affected by the violence ) probably do.
On both sides.

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, StringJunky said:

When are you going to contribute something of value?

19 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I use discussion for clarity and focus as I search for a core of understanding. Brevity doesn't equal pithiness, and pithiness doesn't equal understanding, and together they just make things more vague for me. 

Sorry guy's, had a visit from a mate with JD as a chaser; don't remember posting that.

 

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Not that I was proposing an increase in hostilities, but some people ( those directly affected by the violence ) probably do.
On both sides.

Indeed, one side claiming to be freedom fighter's and the other claiming to protect you from terrorists... 

At some point, a great person suggests forgiveness, when they realise the futility of banging one's head against a wall; it's never the wall that capitulates... 

[MigL]

I've forgotten whole years because of JD.

[Phi for All]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

I've forgotten whole years because of JD.

Before Jack Daniels, people had to confess their sins to a live goat and then set it loose in the wilderness. I think Israel still practices this on Yom Kippur. 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Before Jack Daniels, people had to confess their sins to a live goat and then set it loose in the wilderness. I think Israel still practices this on Yom Kippur. 

 

[iNow]

On 5/18/2021 at 3:02 PM, MonDie said:

Netanyahu-Israel's government rose to power as what suspiciously resembles a coup government

And as of today (for now, anyway), Netanyahu is no longer PM of Israel. 
 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57462470

Quote

Benjamin Netanyahu has lost his 12-year hold on power in Israel after its parliament voted in a new coalition government. 
 

Right-wing nationalist Naftali Bennett has been sworn in as prime minister, leading a "government of change". 

He will lead an unprecedented coalition of parties which was approved with a razor-thin majority of 60-59.

Mr Bennett will be prime minister until September 2023 as part of a power-sharing deal

 

[dimreepr]

An unexamined truth is still a truth...

[ScienceNostalgia101]

Question: Does funding a regime that censors media outlets by bombing them constitute being a de facto accomplice in censorship? Is the USA violating its own laws in that sense?

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, ScienceNostalgia101 said:

Question: Does funding a regime that censors media outlets by bombing them constitute being a de facto accomplice in censorship? Is the USA violating its own laws in that sense?

Who makes the law's?