Do you truly believe modern scientists have written the end of this story?

[OdinSon2k11]

The sun will get 10% brighter, all water will be gone. The dying sun with become a red giant and grow in size to the point where it will consume the earth. This the common prediction of our future, the end of us.

 

But do you believe that the end of our story has already been written in stone? I don't...what I believe is there will be a line of great scientists in the future that will make us look like cavemen 🙂.

 

Here's the thing, they haven't been born yet. Maybe not for several, dozens of generations from now. Heck, their families are probably living in huts right now 🙂.

They could reverse engineer the sun, they could ignite a NEW one. They could discover a way to live WITHOUT a sun, by artificial means.

This is all contingent upon a lunatic dictator not sparking a nuclear war in the future, that could wipe out civilization. So on not on board with this gloomy outcome from today's science. Look how far we've come in just the last 60-70 years!

[MigL]

Sooooo ...

Did you wanna discuss science based on observational/experimental evidence and available theory, or, your beliefs and imagination ?

[OdinSon2k11]

You've enlightened me that I neglected to follow your rules 🙂! Thanks for notifying me of that 😂!

[beecee]

3 hours ago, OdinSon2k11 said:

The sun will get 10% brighter, all water will be gone. The dying sun with become a red giant and grow in size to the point where it will consume the earth. This the common prediction of our future, the end of us.

We already see various stages of stellar evolution as we are exploring the heavens. Why would our system be any different?

3 hours ago, OdinSon2k11 said:

But do you believe that the end of our story has already been written in stone? I don't...what I believe is there will be a line of great scientists in the future that will make us look like cavemen 🙂.

According to the observational evidence yes. Future great scientists more then likley could see human civilisation flourish on another planet to extend our species...Mars for example...

3 hours ago, OdinSon2k11 said:

They could reverse engineer the sun, they could ignite a NEW one. They could discover a way to live WITHOUT a sun, by artificial means.

Even if any future advanced civilisation achieves any of what you suggest, our solar system, our galaxy and our universe, all have a "use by date" 

3 hours ago, OdinSon2k11 said:

So on not on board with this gloomy outcome from today's science. Look how far we've come in just the last 60-70 years!

Nothing gloomy about it, just plain ordinary fact/s based on current scientific knowledge and observational data. We all, everything has a "use by date".

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, OdinSon2k11 said:

The sun will get 10% brighter, all water will be gone. The dying sun with become a red giant and grow in size to the point where it will consume the earth. This the common prediction of our future, the end of us.

It's more likely we'll discover better ways to leave the system sooner than we learn to manipulate the processes of a sun. 

 

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Future great scientists more then likley could see human civilisation flourish on another planet to extend our species...Mars for example...

Once our sun leaves its main sequence, I think Mars will be part of the red giant's atmosphere, unless the sun's mass decreases enough to let Mars expand its orbit. 

[OdinSon2k11]

Those responding like I'm somehow doubting or challenging accepted conclusions of the life cycle of a star, youre misinterpreting what I'm saying here. Im not a scientist myself , but I have a layman understanding from Curiosity Stream 🙂. There are stars that make ours look the size of a grain of sand. They will will super nova. Ours is a medium class one in size and temperature, that wont super nova, but will instead get bloated, then then wind up a white dwarf. I'm not denying any of this.

 

What I'm saying is...our star may have ONE huge factor that similar ones they have observed lacked-an orbiting planet harboring INTELLIGENT LIFE 🙂. You can observe similar class stars and THEIR outcomes. What you cannot do is predict the limits of human intelligence and ingenuity. 

[swansont]

8 hours ago, OdinSon2k11 said:

They could discover a way to live WITHOUT a sun, by artificial means.

Which will be great for interstellar travelers, but irrelevant for folks consumed by the red giant.

Five billion years from now. If there is human (or any) life on the planet at that point.

[beecee]

3 hours ago, OdinSon2k11 said:

 Im not a scientist myself ,

Join the club.

3 hours ago, OdinSon2k11 said:

What I'm saying is...our star may have ONE huge factor that similar ones they have observed lacked-an orbiting planet harboring INTELLIGENT LIFE 🙂. You can observe similar class stars and THEIR outcomes. What you cannot do is predict the limits of human intelligence and ingenuity. 

Granted and correct. But irrespective, our solar system, galaxy and universe all have a use by date. While we may move beyond our system, in time, the same situation will always present itself.

 

5 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Once our sun leaves its main sequence, I think Mars will be part of the red giant's atmosphere, unless the sun's mass decreases enough to let Mars expand its orbit. 

Yep correct and understood. We wont actually have any terrestrial planets left in our system, to settle...perhaps Titan, Saturn's largest moon? 

[Endy0816]

There is star lifting that can work to extend the sun's lifetime. In combination with new material for fusion added, could keep sun going for far longer than it's natural span.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_lifting

Scale of engineering involved is main hurdle as physics is actually fairly well understood. Removing what is hard to fuse, adding what is easy.

There's also options like man made Fusion and chemical energy that could keep us going as well.

[gatewood]

I don't know why so many people get this idea that we'll go on for thousands of years as the same, limited biological species in a civilization "a la star wars/trek".

We'll probably become or be superseded by an artificial superintelligence by this century.

[Phi for All]

28 minutes ago, gatewood said:

I don't know why so many people get this idea that we'll go on for thousands of years as the same, limited biological species in a civilization "a la star wars/trek".

We'll probably become or be superseded by an artificial superintelligence by this century.

I don't know why so many people get this idea that we'll become or be superseded by an artificial superintelligence by this century.

We'll probably go on for thousands of years as the same, limited biological species in a civilization "a la star wars/trek".

[gatewood]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I don't know why so many people get this idea that we'll become or be superseded by an artificial superintelligence by this century.

We'll probably go on for thousands of years as the same, limited biological species in a civilization "a la star wars/trek".

Facepalm*

N/A

Edited June 21, 2021 by gatewood

[Endy0816]

5 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I don't know why so many people get this idea that we'll become or be superseded by an artificial superintelligence by this century.

We'll probably go on for thousands of years as the same, limited biological species in a civilization "a la star wars/trek".

Fair odds we'll design something with either superhuman intelligence or that will seek such intelligence. Then it all comes down to its goals and how we fit into those goals. There is plenty of space and resources out there, that it could more easily take advantage of so somewhat boringly may not result in either Judgement Day style conflict or Technological Singularity.

 

Was actually a Star Wars story on this ironically(The Bounty Hunter Wars). All the other robots were reprogrammed into sleeper agents and the Death Star taken over by a rogue AI, just prior to destruction.

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

Fair odds we'll design something with either superhuman intelligence or that will seek such intelligence. Then it all comes down to its goals and how we fit into those goals. There is plenty of space and resources out there, that it could more easily take advantage of so somewhat boringly may not result in either Judgement Day style conflict or Technological Singularity.

I think the odds that we mess up the planet to such a degree that only a fairly small human population survives and where much of the effort is focused on sustenance (albeit in a high-tech version) is also not completely off the table.

[storyteller]

On 6/6/2021 at 10:02 AM, OdinSon2k11 said:

They could reverse engineer the sun, they could ignite a NEW one.

For that to happen, you would need a very massive body of molecular hydrogen, to become dense enough for gravitational collapse, which in turn, produce enough pressure and heat to, as you say “ignite a NEW one”, triggering nuclear fusion, fusing hydrogen nuclei into helium atom.

That’s the only way to sustain a long-term and star-like energy.

On 6/6/2021 at 10:02 AM, OdinSon2k11 said:

They could discover a way to live WITHOUT a sun, by artificial means.

Probably not life worth living. 

The sun is responsible for large part of the Earth’s ecological system: the atmosphere, the hydrology, plant life and other life form.

Without atmosphere and water, I highly doubt that much would survive, when the sun reaches the red giant phase. 

 

[Conjurer]

On 6/21/2021 at 10:57 PM, storyteller said:

For that to happen, you would need a very massive body of molecular hydrogen, to become dense enough for gravitational collapse, which in turn, produce enough pressure and heat to, as you say “ignite a NEW one”, triggering nuclear fusion, fusing hydrogen nuclei into helium atom.

Saturn is close to the mass of being able to ignite into a star.  I would just take moving Saturn into the sun to prolong it's life, or for everyone to really go out with flair!  It would beat sitting around for millions of years, just letting it just happen...

[J.C.MacSwell]

I'm pretty sure the raccoons that take over after we mess up will evolve to the point they have a fighting chance.

That's my glass half full...😀

Edited July 7, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[Conjurer]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I'm pretty sure the raccoons that take over will evolve to the point they have a fighting chance.

We would more likely to be taken over by cockroaches, since they are most adapted to extreme environments, including thermonuclear radiation.  They are already taking over to be one of the largest total masses of biological entities on the planet.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Just now, Conjurer said:

We would more likely to be taken over by cockroaches, since they are most adapted to extreme environments, including thermonuclear radiation.  They are already taking over to be one of the largest total masses of biological entities on the planet.

You're probably right...but that's more glass half empty...

[Conjurer]

20 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You're probably right...but that's more glass half empty...

It would be more like a glass half full of cockroaches.  They are the only recorded survivors of direct nuclear detonations.  They can survive underground at ground zero.  They are already immune to most forms of pest control.    

No one could ever have a glass, being pessimistic about it, being half empty of cockroach's.  

[beecee]

3 hours ago, Conjurer said:

Saturn is close to the mass of being able to ignite into a star.  I would just take moving Saturn into the sun to prolong it's life, or for everyone to really go out with flair!  It would beat sitting around for millions of years, just letting it just happen...

Jupiter, more massive then Saturn, would still need to be more then 80 times more massive to even become a low mass star.

[Ken Fabian]

I think people are making it more complicated than it needs to be. I think the "solution" to surviving past the death of the sun is developing the capability to make and sustain self supporting artificial habitats, using just the raw materials from asteroids, comets and similar that will give homo sapiens (and/or later homo speciations) the means.

I suspect if we succeed in inhabiting anywhere off Earth it will be because we have are capable of most of that, but initially with the advantage of solar power. To be self sufficient without solar power - to have reliable fusion energy I suppose - looks like an important threshold to cross. A whole lot of technological capabilities are needed that we don't have and I think maintaining a healthy, wealthy Earth will determine if we get the opportunities to develop them.

If we can be self sustaining with those kinds of primordial space resources... it's more than just a big solar system. It has a Kuiper Belt. Before we even get started on the Oort. The Oort of the next door stars after that?

Edited July 7, 2021 by Ken Fabian

[Conjurer]

14 hours ago, beecee said:

Jupiter, more massive then Saturn, would still need to be more then 80 times more massive to even become a low mass star.

In astronomical terms, 80 isn't a very big number.  You could count it on your fingers and toe's only using them 4 times.  It would most likely be easier just to ignite one of those planets, but I believe Saturn would be a better candidate from it containing mostly hydrogen.  Then we could have a dual star system.

It could be like in the newer version of the Star Trek movie, where they drop something into the star to blow it up, like dark matter containment.  They could rig something like the LHC to launch a microscopic black hole at it to increase the mass and ignite it.  

[beecee]

42 minutes ago, Conjurer said:

 but I believe Saturn would be a better candidate from it containing mostly hydrogen.  Then we could have a dual star system.

As does Jupiter.

[zapatos]

17 hours ago, Conjurer said:

They can survive underground at ground zero. 

Citation please.

57 minutes ago, Conjurer said:

In astronomical terms, 80 isn't a very big number.

In terms of the total mass of the solar system (sans the sun) it is an incredibly large number. Where do you propose getting all this necessary mass to be able to put a match to Jupiter?