Language and meaning (Split from Correction hijack (Sharia in the US))

[dimreepr]

On 1/10/2021 at 9:04 PM, joigus said:

AKA "overcoming the curse of knowledge."

I like to think about it in terms of tying the knot, and untying the knot.

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but shouldn't the term be "overcoming the curse of understanding"; for instance "tying the knot, and untying the knot." is just reinforcing knowledge, not understanding...

[joigus]

22 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but shouldn't the term be "overcoming the curse of understanding"; for instance "tying the knot, and untying the knot." is just reinforcing knowledge, not understanding...

It's a matter of terminology, but I don't think "curse of knowledge" is off the mark. The first time you learn something, it's probably more accurate to call it understanding. But not every time the question pops up again do you reproduce the "understanding" part of it. You retrieve the data from your memory, because your really understood it long ago. You may even remember a reasoning, but it's just because memory is playing a role there that the key ideas for that reasoning can be conjured up almost instantly. You may be under the illusion that you're reasoning again, but you're drawing from your memory more heavily than you would like to believe. It happens to all of us, and it's to do with how the hippocampus works.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, joigus said:

The first time you learn something, it's probably more accurate to call it understanding.

I think it's more accurate to call it a lesson learned.

It may take many lesson's, to reach understanding....

[joigus]

44 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I think it's more accurate to call it a lesson learned.

It may take many lesson's, to reach understanding....

It may take many setbacks to learn a lesson.

Understanding, on the other hand, is instantaneous...

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, joigus said:

It may take many setbacks to learn a lesson.

Understanding, on the other hand, is instantaneous...

By whom?

[joigus]

21 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

By whom?

By those who understand.

That's why we say "I understand", and never "I'm understanding".

But we always say "I'm learning".

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 hours ago, joigus said:

 and it's to do with how the hippocampus works.

I didn't even know they went to university...

[joigus]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I didn't even know they went to university...

Who? Sorry, I'm lost. 🥴

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 minutes ago, joigus said:

Who? Sorry, I'm lost. 🥴

Sorry about that. 😀

Here's a couple getting lunch between classes.

...and I'll see myself out...

[joigus]

6 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Sorry about that. 😀

Here's a couple getting lunch between classes.

...and I'll see myself out...

LOL. Got it! What campus is that?

[J.C.MacSwell]

Just now, joigus said:

LOL. Got it! What campus is that?

Calgary here in Canada (Calgary Zoo)

Apologies for the off topic content. Please carry on.

[iNow]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I didn't even know they went to university...

FWIW I knew what you meant and LOL’d

[J.C.MacSwell]

37 minutes ago, iNow said:

FWIW I knew what you meant and LOL’d

Thanks. You've been putting up with my twisted sense of humour longer than Joigus.

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, joigus said:

By those who understand.

That's why we say "I understand", and never "I'm understanding".

But we always say "I'm learning".

What I mean is, when we think we understand something, we tend to dismiss any knowledge/information that contradicts that understanding.

15 hours ago, joigus said:

Sorry. It may have been me who started the language issues. The sentence that, under Sharia, women can be free, left me worried. Then I agree that the thread was diverted into language too heavily. I don't particularly adhere to the fact that the forum is resurrected based on minor linguistic points, and only that.

But I do insist that either you are free, or you aren't. Sometimes I point out a language item because it worries me that it hides something or tries to make up for something. In this case, if I said to you: "Don't worry, you can be free any time you want", you would be right to suspect it might reveal an important constriction to your freedom.

The fact that "can" is used as diminishing the condition of free, to me, is not to be ignored. And the fact that a person who's presumably receiving instruction on Sharia feels compelled to say that women can be free under Sharia, to me, means something. Why doesn't the OP just say "women are free under Sharia"? See my point?

Unfortunately neither the OP, nor anybody else has clarified this point. And I didn't insist on it, as I noticed that it didn't gather much attention.

That's why I asked for it to split.

16 hours ago, MigL said:

Everyone heaped scorn on Koti, but, I'm sure everyone knew what he meant, and he made a valid point ...

That's why I adjusted his statement, and I didn't heap scorn on Koti; I tried to teach him why the adjustment was necessary. 

[dimreepr]

Knowledge and understanding are intimately connected at every stage of life; the problem seems to be that delayed gratification is understood to be far better... 

[MigL]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

That's why I adjusted his statement, and I didn't heap scorn on Koti; I tried to teach him why the adjustment was necessary. 

So you will understand when I try to teach you adjustment is necessary to your brief, and usually vague, posts ?

[joigus]

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

So you will understand when I try to teach you adjustment is necessary to your brief, and usually vague, posts ?

I still don't know what @dimreepr's position on the matter of Sharia in countries which already have a body of law really is.

For example:

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What I mean is, when we think we understand something, we tend to dismiss any knowledge/information that contradicts that understanding.

That may be true, but I fail to see any direct connection to the topic of Sharia in the US.

[MigL]

Wasn't meant to be a 'cheap shot'; just an observation.
( I don't do cheap shots; I prefer expensive liquors )

After a page and a half of bashing Koti for his language use, and claiming it's for his benefit, you seem very much opposed to constructive criticism ( which would be for your benefit ).

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Split from https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/124059-correction-hijack-sharia-in-the-us/

 

Owing to multi-part posts, this split may be omitting some discussion

 

[CharonY]

On 6/13/2021 at 4:49 AM, dimreepr said:

What I mean is, when we think we understand something, we tend to dismiss any knowledge/information that contradicts that understanding.

This sounds a bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect. I am not entirely sure what OP in this split is really about, however it occurred to me that using a framework like Bloom's taxonomy  could help guide the discussion a bit, assuming it is not all hippopotamuses all the way down.

In the this system, knowledge is the lowest cognitive effort and is based on memorization of information. The next step up is comprehension, which includes the ability to restate information and so on. In this framework, it could mean that folks with the lowest level of understanding are also more likely to dismiss contradicting information as they have not reached the higher levels of learning, which would allow them to contextualize and evaluate new information.

If you allow a small rant from my side, I think the rise of youtube level education is a great example of low-level learning. Many that I have seen are created with entertainment in mind and giving viewer the impression of having learned something, but often they are vacuous strings of facts and factoids without any of the hallmark of higher understanding (and I think it is at least part of the reason why the recent generations of students feel that they know more than they really do).

[MigL]

I didn't really want to get into a discussion about knowledge versus understanding, other than the example that an encyclopedia has knowledge, but certainly no understanding.

I simply wanted to convey my displeasure at the way Koti was treated, when all participants understood what he meant.
That turned the original OP concerning Sharia law, and education under religious governance, into one about semantics and the use of the English language, necessitating a split of the thread.

After more splits, my posts no longer have context, and come across as muddled 'bitching', so I'll bow out.
You guys carry on.

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, CharonY said:

This sounds a bit like the Dunning-Kruger effect. I am not entirely sure what OP in this split is really about, however it occurred to me that using a framework like Bloom's taxonomy  could help guide the discussion a bit, assuming it is not all hippopotamuses all the way down.

I realise that, like the Dunning-Kruger effect, becomes lesser the further up the educational ladder one climb's but I don't think it get's to anything like zero; especially if the contradictory knowledge/information seems to be trivially dismissable.

Like in my example of shariah banking in the original thread (You and @swansont  have a good point. Is it possible to reverse the split?)

18 hours ago, CharonY said:

In the this system, knowledge is the lowest cognitive effort and is based on memorization of information. The next step up is comprehension, which includes the ability to restate information and so on. In this framework, it could mean that folks with the lowest level of understanding are also more likely to dismiss contradicting information as they have not reached the higher levels of learning, which would allow them to contextualize and evaluate new information.

Indeed, that's why I think the term should read 'the curse of understanding'.

18 hours ago, CharonY said:

If you allow a small rant from my side, I think the rise of youtube level education is a great example of low-level learning. Many that I have seen are created with entertainment in mind and giving viewer the impression of having learned something, but often they are vacuous strings of facts and factoids without any of the hallmark of higher understanding (and I think it is at least part of the reason why the recent generations of students feel that they know more than they really do).

If I may add to the rant, I think it's the one of the greatest threats to society, for social media, read society undermined...

16 hours ago, MigL said:

I simply wanted to convey my displeasure at the way Koti was treated, when all participants understood what he meant.

You're showing your bias here, much like Koti, and yes, I understood what he meant that's why I corrected his statement

19 hours ago, MigL said:

After a page and a half of bashing Koti for his language use, and claiming it's for his benefit, you seem very much opposed to constructive criticism ( which would be for your benefit ).

Not all criticism is constructive, for example, there's only limited option's to correct for ineloquence.

Edited June 15, 2021 by dimreepr

[iNow]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Is it possible to reverse the split?

possible, yes, but probably not worth the effort

[Horipodom]

I absolutely agree with you on the fact that knowledge and understanding are intimately connected at every stage of life. Language is one of the main method we use for communication. Of course there are still sign language, body language, etc. But most of the time we communicate through words.  https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/125263-language-and-meaning-split-from-correction-hijack-sharia-in-the-us/?tab=comments#comment-1178655   I understand the importance of language so I'm thinking about learning Spanish. Many companies in our country are merging with the ones in Spain and Mexico. I think that it if I were able to speak Spanish fluently, then perhaps there will be more opportunities open for me. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Horipodom