Alien origin thought experiment.

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

Could you elaborate please?

Swansont can surely explain better than me, but...

The speed of light is the fastest speed there is. Even at that speed, it often takes thousands of years to reach other star systems. If we sent messages, we'd be dead before they were even received, and LONG dead (as would be our great grandchildren, great great grandchildren, and related ancestors) by the time a reply would come.

Hence, conversation is more or less prohibited. 

[swansont]

41 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

Could you elaborate please?

If L/c is sufficiently large, the transit delay is longer than one's lifetime.

 

(edit: just saw that iNow has already explained)

[Conscious Energy]

33 minutes ago, iNow said:

The speed of light is the fastest speed there is. Even at that speed, it often takes thousands of years to reach other star systems. If we sent messages, we'd be dead before they were even received, and LONG dead (as would be our great grandchildren, great great grandchildren, and related ancestors) by the time a reply would come.

Let me reply with a thought experiment.

Let’s assume that 5 billion years ago in the milky way galaxy one civilisation have reached technological singularity and able to maintain quantum entanglement through any distances with a probe they can send out with 99.999% of the speed of light.

They decide to discover the Universe and they send the entangled probes (communication device) to every area life could be possible. In 5 billion years, since they started the project, they have been able to send a probe to 38% of the known universes territory.

With the entangled probes they are able to receive and communicate data instantly and so the space barrier could be solved pointing out that distance isn’t really a barrier.

[iNow]

Well yeah, sure... I suppose if we ignore the rules of physics as currently understood and rely on fictional communication devices that we've just pulled out of our asses, then anything is possible. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Conscious Energy said:

With the entangled probes they are able to receive and communicate data instantly and so the space barrier could be solved pointing out that distance isn’t really a barrier.

No, they can't. That's not how entanglement works. Feel free to look at the many threads we have on the topic, and if you have unanswered questions, start a thread to ask them.

Quote

In 5 billion years, since they started the project

What does our experience match up with this? How much data do we have that's survived 500 years? How many species survive as long as 50 million years?

Quote

Let’s assume that 5 billion years ago in the milky way galaxy one civilisation have reached technological singularity

That's another topic that's come up for discussion. Is this possible? How soon could an advanced technology emerge after the big bang? (again, feel free to consult other threads and open up a new one if necessary)

 

[Kartazion]

3 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

With the entangled probes they are able to receive and communicate data instantly and so the space barrier could be solved pointing out that distance isn’t really a barrier.

The principle of teleportation uses quantum entanglement. Mathematically, to be upstream of the source, that is to say the singularity, is intersserant insofar as one breaks the laws of the celerity of the light during the measurements of the entangled pairs, due to the distance which separates them thereafter. Remember that you are only allowed one measure of the entangled pair.

The question is whether a superluminal teleportation is possible by the 'unknown mechanism' of the information transfer of the entangled pairs. See EPR paradox - Wikipedia

and Inégalités de Bell — Wikipédia

Bell's theorem - Wikipedia

[beecee]

16 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

The UAP incidents indicate it differently, thats why we pounder the idea 

No, they simply indicate "Unknown" air phenomena or "unidentified"

And let me say again, no scientists worth his or her salt, would claim any off Earth intelligent alien species exist within our solar system.

And you will notice that the OP choices given for probable origin of any alien species rightly ignores that scenario.

Edited June 24, 2021 by beecee

[Conscious Energy]

6 hours ago, beecee said:

And let me say again, no scientists worth his or her salt, would claim any off Earth intelligent alien species exist within our solar system.

I didn’t claim that either. 
 

My assumption was an extraterrestrial intelligence which arrived to the solar system but yet did not “officially” contact

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Conscious Energy said:

I didn’t claim that either. 
 

My assumption was an extraterrestrial intelligence which arrived to the solar system but yet did not “officially” contact

OK, gotcha...my misunderstanding. Again while understanding that the extraordinary evidence needed for such an arrival is not forthcoming, the best that can be said, is at this time is that a small percentage of sightings remain unexplained.

[Alex_Krycek]

On 6/23/2021 at 11:45 PM, Conscious Energy said:

If any extraterestial life is in the solar system and yet they did not connect Us, it is because they do think we are not ready.

Their appearance could trigger the collaps of the type 0 civilization we are. (they might even have empirical data on such events).  

Perhaps they don't think we're ready, or they're still trying to figure out an interface through which they can communicate with us.

• How do you communicate effectively with a species that reacts to you with violence and fear? (fight or flight)
• How do you communicate with an intelligent species that has never encountered extraterrestrials before?

One possible answer is the ETs are simply making themselves known.  

Dr. Jacques Valleé, a leading researcher of the ufo phenomenon, has suggested that the current revelation of ufos with greater and greater frequency could be an intentional form of mass collective conditioning.  In short: we are in a preparation stage.

The ETs come into our atmosphere, elude our fighter pilots with aplomb, and disappear.  Message:  We're more technologically advanced than you but are not choosing to hurt you.  You don't have to be afraid, and should not attempt to attack is.  Such attempts are futile.  

They continue to show up, seemingly at random, and allow themselves to be periodically witnessed. 

Slowly but surely the idea of their presence is less and less frightening or taboo in human consciousness.  The problems of societal panic and collapse are circumvented.  No sudden moves.

As a side note, Arthur C. Clarke explored this idea in his classic novel:  Childhood's End.

@Moontanman

You will recall from the film "The Phenomenon" that the schoolchildren who claimed to have interacted with physical alien beings in Zimbabwe in 1994 said they received telepathic messages.  This would indicate that the ETs do not communicate verbally as we do.  Obviously this poses a major problem for establishing an interface of direct communication, especially since human beings like to "shoot first, and ask questions later".

[Intoscience]

I chose "Another planetary system".

However, my personal beliefs are as follows:

1, Life most likely exists elsewhere in the observable universe, though technological life is most likely extremely rare.

2, There is no reason to assume UAP's/UFO's are anything as fanciful as aliens visitations, and most likely not.

3, Space is so vast and the odds of simultaneous existence so low, even if technological life did exist elsewhere, then the likelihood of communication between any from differing star systems is pretty much zero

4, If technological advanced intelligence exists then we have absolutely no way of even contemplating what it looked like, or what, if any, its intentions might be.

5, It's possible we (humans) are the only technological intelligence in the galaxy. Its also possible that if we continue to advance technology and also manage to survive long enough we may spread out across our galaxy. However Its my personal belief is that our A.I development will attain the singularity that some predict and that this will then become the dominant intelligence capable of interstellar migration and occupation (assuming this becomes one of its goals).

Obviously all this is speculation and just my personal beliefs based on what I currently know or understand.

 

Out of all the possible answers to chose from in the poll, I felt this was the most likely of the options.          

[Moontanman]

8 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Perhaps they don't think we're ready, or they're still trying to figure out an interface through which they can communicate with us.

• How do you communicate effectively with a species that reacts to you with violence and fear? (fight or flight)
• How do you communicate with an intelligent species that has never encountered extraterrestrials before?

One possible answer is the ETs are simply making themselves known.  

Dr. Jacques Valleé, a leading researcher of the ufo phenomenon, has suggested that the current revelation of ufos with greater and greater frequency could be an intentional form of mass collective conditioning.  In short: we are in a preparation stage.

The ETs come into our atmosphere, elude our fighter pilots with aplomb, and disappear.  Message:  We're more technologically advanced than you but are not choosing to hurt you.  You don't have to be afraid, and should not attempt to attack is.  Such attempts are futile.  

They continue to show up, seemingly at random, and allow themselves to be periodically witnessed. 

Slowly but surely the idea of their presence is less and less frightening or taboo in human consciousness.  The problems of societal panic and collapse are circumvented.  No sudden moves.

As a side note, Arthur C. Clarke explored this idea in his classic novel:  Childhood's End.

@Moontanman

You will recall from the film "The Phenomenon" that the schoolchildren who claimed to have interacted with physical alien beings in Zimbabwe in 1994 said they received telepathic messages.  This would indicate that the ETs do not communicate verbally as we do.  Obviously this poses a major problem for establishing an interface of direct communication, especially since human beings like to "shoot first, and ask questions later".

The whole telepathic thing bothers me, it seems so unlikely that telepathy is real in humans and to be able to communicate with aliens would be highly improbable, far more improbable than aliens looking just like us. 

Childhoods end was a great book! 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Moontanman

[Janus]

32 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

The whole telepathic thing bothers me, it seems so unlikely that telepathy is real in humans and to be able to communicate with aliens would be highly improbable, far more improbable than aliens looking just like us. 

Childhoods end was a great book! 

Hal Clement wrote a short story dealing with telepathic aliens communicating with Human.

The basic outline was a spaceship containing renegades from their own race, has to do a forced landing on Earth.  They are a telepathic race.  They land in a remote place where they contact a single human, and they spend a good time learning how to read and interact with his mind.  (The idea being that once they learn to do this they can use it to control all humans. And their plans were not good.  

Once they succeed with this one person, they try and implement their plan, only to have it fail.  The problem was, that Humans, not being a naturally telepathic race, had thought patterns that varied from individual to individual. The mental link they had formed with the one human didn't translate into forming it with any others.

[dimreepr]

A thought experiment, is only valid when it provides a result; an alien, on this planet could just be, a north Korean... 

[Don86326]

MoonTanMan!

It is easier to notice insights staring me in the face since I don't have a quarter-million-Dollar investment in a Ph.D.

I read Wilbert Brockhouse Smith years ago, and dismissed the mention of resonance against the fabric of time.

Then I read and swooned for several years over the insights of Frank Znidarsic, EE (studied with NASA on Podkletnov duplications).

Then I read that were time bent/perturbed (as a mathematical variable) in the rate time 'flows' that gravity pops out of the equation of inertia (hope that's right, lazy old boy here, love you).

Human's don't bend time.  Most don't.  Smith built a coil that he claims did resonate with the fabric of time.

The CIA visited Smith.  That's why there is no development today based on retardation of entropy at the quantum level to alter geodesic least-time paths.  Smith was Canada's UFO hunter in the 1950-s, sanctioned to hunt and on payroll by the Canadian DOT branch of radio science.  Smith detected a UFO, and that shut down the open project.  He found it on my the day I was born, actually.

So there people!  I wish I were people, but once learned, unlearning is more difficult.  Make me people.  Where was Smith wrong?

And of course I've studied this for decades.  And some of the synchronicities involved brought me to sobbing hot wet mess of uncontrolled soul-mind readjustment.  So, being told a text-book taught one that quantum noise is pure noise and there's no signal within just doesn't have all the experience I can't discuss in prudent trained humans.

I love your handle, MoonTanMan!  

 

 

[Don86326]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:23 AM, Moontanman said:

The whole telepathic thing bothers me, it seems so unlikely that telepathy is real in humans and to be able to communicate with aliens would be highly improbable, far more improbable than aliens looking just like us. 

Childhoods end was a great book! 

(From an older thread)

Bothers me too.  But nearly everything I've learned I got from my cats.  Sentience seems to be the thing we communicate.  The words are embellishments, added to the mind's delivery of an expression.  The sentient expression is seen beginning in EEG signals before someone speaks.  Our inner sentience ('feelings' awareness at rest, without simian chatter) moves with intent behind the curtains in conversation.  Words break the surface of awareness... and words expressing self are always adorned with the sentience of intent of the speaker.  I wonder what sense of my sentience is conveyed in this paragraph?  Please share!

There is a former IBM EE as biosensor designer that plunged into esoterics of mind/soul/spirit/whatever. (Dan Winter)  He markets (yet?) a dual EEG headband.  An innovation featured is the calibration of the brainwaves into power spectra, and presented as a reading on a bar graph.  Two bar graphs side by side would display the power-usage of two brains wearing EEG headbands, connected to this gizmo.

This dual brain-wave display would show in real time the frequency peaks on a logrithmic power curve on the display of golden ratio degrees, and other times the people-brain's peak's would have a linear separation in these power spectra of one's head.

Sensorized telepathy? (next)

So fascinating was that warm fuzzy moments, like when an attentive audience views an adorable fuzzy kitten brought into the room, and as a whole the room begins to make simian cooing sounds, casting lovely thoughts.

Warm fuzzy moments separated the peaks of brain wave power spectra into degrees of the golden ratio (Phi^1, Phi^2, Phi^3...)  Two people familiar with each other, showing dual-brainwave activity, would show a synchronization of mind-wave peaks into a mind-lock of synchronous golden-ratio peaks that interplay between the two people.

A psychic's brainwaves separated into octaves, while she was in trance, with her EEG headband in place.

My compulsive need for higher dopamine levels has uncovered other interesting perspectives on sentience.

 

Oh hell, I'll fess up.  It's my favorite topic.  The best carrot to chase for dopamine addicts is the really hard problem of serious scientific inspiration that equates the apparent connection between UFO/UAP levitation/inertial impossibilities  and telepathy.  (Newbie here! likely walking on prior threads and you all have already figured it out.)

I do not think humans will solve the problem for a few reasons.  Individuals may punch through, but the very nature of the problem is a lack of group mind and animalisms that auto-navigate on these topics that require our auto-animals to become domesticated, and rooted on a sentience more/totally harmonic with a universal sentience.

Now we're sounding fringy!

So, 1) pull Roger Penrose's logic that mind is not generated by brain, but brain is a transceiver of mind somewhere else,  and 2) admit that time may be engineered as a gradient projection into a matter lattice with magnetic pulse resonance against the periodicity of the atomic mass-center resulting form quantum-transitions --but in secret (where no academic staff will ever overhear), and 3) consider the alien tutelage found several years ago weathering over in the Uni. of Ottawa in the Arthur Bray Fond.  It's fascinating if one seriously considers time as entropy, and UAP tech as retardation of the quantum transition duration. The late Smith's wife published his unfinished 'New Science.'  And I don't read it with understanding (yet).  Except for the theory sections and his lecture notes on the "tempic fabric."  And resonance against it.  Magnetically.  By tuning a reversing-magnetic-propagation at radio frequencies through a hollow ferrite tube. Keyword: propagation tuning.  Modern science doesn't know what to tune for and won't want the results.  At a certain velocity of magnetic flux-density variation, the Coulomb field couples and behaves like electric Jello.  That is by a modern who reads like Wilbert B. Smith reincarnated.  Engineer Frank Znidarsic... again of no ethos in the mainstream... and I can personally guarantee the mainstream's course with flat-time won't duplicate whatever it was that Smith was taught by the off-world aliens that contacted him; Canada's top official for radio in the 1950-s.

That guarantee comes from a newbie woodworker in retirement.

It's all been enough to make me want to become a real physicist.  (Or should I consider lock-smithing?)

I have a hunch that the writing has been on the walls all around us for a long, long time.  But we won't be able to look back and admit it until we get to the other side of the fundamental shift in physics to alien tech at a K-12 level.  What's already on the internet about Smith is not just ignored, but painful to the trained ears of physicists.  I do not expect my taxes will help build 'Starship Znidarsic.'  (Or have they already? I've read a fascinating leak about our space force from the 1990-s.)

And breakthrough science won't happen per the old adage that paradigm shifts don't root until the old guard die off.  We hoomans just don't like social-change... and this change coming, were we to become the 'warp society,' has a very high degree of weird.  Unlike any sci-fi.  Well... I'm just sharing what's unlearnable to me based on investigations and other.  Greets from the hoi polloi!

But I do see the tech breaking out in a private society here and there.  Hey!  I'll barter to do tech work in a new breakaway society!   That's is also what I feel most genuine UFO encounters are; Earthers of a breakaway society.

 

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, Don86326 said:

It is easier to notice insights staring me in the face since I don't have a quarter-million-Dollar investment in a Ph.D.

You have a fantastic method for staying positive here, but I don't think it serves you as well as you think it does. I am glad you see education as an investment, though. If we were talking about the money instead of the knowledge, would you say the same thing? Would it be easier to prosper in life if you didn't have all that money invested in stocks?

17 minutes ago, Don86326 said:

But nearly everything I've learned I got from my cats.

I'm hoping you'll get more from discussing science here.

 

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Don86326 said:

quarter-million-Dollar investment in a Ph.D

LOL

 

30 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm hoping you'll get more from discussing science here.

I’m hoping that discussing science starts soon.

[Phi for All]

43 minutes ago, swansont said:

I’m hoping that discussing science starts soon.

When you only get 5 posts on your first day here, some folks get a bit bloggy. And like a chef that wants you to taste a little of everything to see what you like, it can be too much for those who like to chew each bite thoughtfully, to see if they should savor or spit. It's hard to sip from the firehose!

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, Don86326 said:

(From an older thread)

 But nearly everything I've learned I got from my cats.  Sentience seems to be the thing we communicate.  The words are embellishments, added to the mind's delivery of an expression.  The sentient expression is seen beginning in EEG signals before someone speaks.  Our inner sentience ('feelings' awareness at rest, without simian chatter) moves with intent behind the curtains in conversation.  Words break the surface of awareness... and words expressing self are always adorned with the sentience of intent of the speaker.  I wonder what sense of my sentience is conveyed in this paragraph?  Please share!

 

 

Miaow!

[Don86326]

On 12/3/2021 at 8:40 AM, Phi for All said:

You have a fantastic method for staying positive here, but I don't think it serves you as well as you think it does. I am glad you see education as an investment, though. If we were talking about the money instead of the knowledge, would you say the same thing? Would it be easier to prosper in life if you didn't have all that money invested in stocks?

I'm hoping you'll get more from discussing science here.

 

I died in diapers, and don't want to learn to think like normal humans.  Thank you.

Remember... vote up/down, don't teach hubristic patterns to students by snipping personalities.

Is that a spot on your tux?

[Pbob]

Earth people relative to an alien 

[Roamer]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:23 PM, Moontanman said:

The whole telepathic thing bothers me, it seems so unlikely that telepathy is real in humans and to be able to communicate with aliens would be highly improbable

It wouldn't be "humans communicating with aliens" it would be "aliens using their high-frequency-brainwave-beam-device" to communicate with humans

[Airbrush]

Here are a few questions about intelligent aliens:

IF they are here, no matter where they came from, they are far more advanced than us.   Probably they are thousands or millions of years more advanced, rather than merely decades or centuries more advanced.  We have stealth that fools the best radar, why would they not?  Why would they have lights to show themselves to us?  Because they are unable to be completely stealthy?  Because they want to be seen a little bit but not too much?  With so many cell phones with high-definition photo and video cameras, why not more clear pictures of them?  Because they have been studying us for thousands of years and they know more about us than we know about ourselves?  They are aware of our technological abilities, so when cameras in cell phones became very common, they were aware of this and so became more careful to not be seen too much?

Why are all the recent video, starting from the Nimitz pilots in 2004, only show craft flying at a constant speed when we are told their craft can make 90 degree turns that would cause thousands of G forces which would mean the crew are not soft beings but robots designed to withstand high G forces?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Airbrush

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

We have stealth that fools the best radar, why would they not? 

We certainly don't have stealth on any of our spacecraft. Shoot, I can see the ISS from my front yard.

3 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

Why would they have lights to show themselves to us?

They could be there to show themselves to each other rather than to us. Perhaps a signaling device.

4 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

With so many cell phones with high-definition photo and video cameras, why not more clear pictures of them? 

Same reason you don't get clear pics of jets flying at altitude.

6 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

They are aware of our technological abilities, so when cameras in cell phones became very common, they were aware of this and so became more careful to not be seen too much?

Sure, why not?

7 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

Why are all the recent video, starting from the Nimitz pilots in 2004, only show craft flying at a constant speed when we are told their craft can make 90 degree turns that would cause thousands of G forces which would mean the crew are not soft beings but robots designed to withstand high G forces?

Maybe due to the infrequent encounters and videos. Squirrels fall out of trees on a regular basis but I've actually never seen a video of the event.