Alien origin thought experiment.

[swansont]

19 hours ago, zapatos said:

We certainly don't have stealth on any of our spacecraft.

How would we know?

Anyway,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misty_(satellite)

19 hours ago, zapatos said:

Shoot, I can see the ISS from my front yard.

That doesn't actually support the argument.

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, Airbrush said:

IF they are here, no matter where they came from, they are far more advanced than us.   Probably they are thousands or millions of years more advanced, rather than merely decades or centuries more advanced. 

Why do you assume more advanced is better?

"The war of the worlds" springs to mind.

19 hours ago, Airbrush said:

Here are a few questions about intelligent aliens:

Here's one:

Why are they hiding?

[swansont]

57 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Why do you assume more advanced is better?

Where is "better" claimed? All I see is "more advanced"

58 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Why are they hiding?

"The Day The Earth Stood Still" comes to mind.  

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, swansont said:

Where is "better" claimed? All I see is "more advanced"

Fair point, I assumed "better" was implied, but my question remains valid, "why are they hiding?"

[swansont]

Just now, dimreepr said:

Fair point, I assumed "better" was implied, but my question remains valid, "why are they hiding?"

Humans sometimes respond to new things with violent opposition. It's not a unique behavior.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

Humans sometimes respond to new things with violent opposition. It's not a unique behavior.

Indeed, and sometimes they are persuaded by a new idea; if one has a new/more advanced idea, why hide it?

[swansont]

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, and sometimes they are persuaded by a new idea; if one has a new/more advanced idea, why hide it?

Sometimes is the key. If half the time you get a nice reception and the other half you get punched in the face, it's not very long before you have a bloody nose.

Discretion is the better part of valor, as they say.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

Sometimes is the key. If half the time you get a nice reception and the other half you get punched in the face, it's not very long before you have a bloody nose.

Discretion is the better part of valor, as they say.

Doesn't that depend on your trust in the idea?

Don't forget Newton was a...

[swansont]

11 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Doesn't that depend on your trust in the idea?

Don't forget Newton was a...

Does it? Can you know ahead of time how somebody else will react? Are you willing to ignore the mountain of evidence of such scenarios ending badly?

 

IOW, does your self-confidence that you will be welcomed as a liberator play much of a role? That didn't work out the last time I heard that phrase.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, swansont said:

Does it? Can you know ahead of time how somebody else will react?

Can you?

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

Are you willing to ignore the mountain of evidence of such scenarios ending badly?

How do you know if this scenario, will end badly? 

All I know is, it has ended badly; every empire end's, much for the same reason.

We ignored reason...

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

How would we know?

 

That's true. Although I more had in mind exploratory missions where we seem to get all the information we need about their structure.

3 hours ago, swansont said:

That doesn't actually support the argument.

Why not? I would think something stealthy would be able to avoid my sight from 250 miles away.

[swansont]

41 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Why not? I would think something stealthy would be able to avoid my sight from 250 miles away.

And how do you know "something stealthy" hasn't? Because you saw something that isn't (and has never been claimed to be) stealthy?

To rebut the existence of stealth spacecraft, you have to be seeing the stealth craft. The ISS isn't one. It's like claiming that seeing a white horse proves that brown horses don't exist.

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

How do you know if this scenario, will end badly? 

I don't. That misses the point, which is it might end badly, and some people/beings might want to minimize risk. I also wear my seatbelt when I drive my car, even though I don't know that I will get into an automobile accident. 

[beecee]

Possible origins of the "aliens" in UFOs or UAPs... Or simply "no Aliens invloved", just some unknown, unidendtified phenomena/atmospheric aberration/trickery of light/mirage/mistaken identity/prank.

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, swansont said:

I don't. That misses the point, which is it might end badly, and some people/beings might want to minimize risk. I also wear my seatbelt when I drive my car, even though I don't know that I will get into an automobile accident. 

Where can I get my alien-proof seat belt?

But my question stands, why are they hiding?

The answer is either, because they're gathering data (Is that to defeat us or study us?) or the answer is they're not strong enough to challenge us...

My point is they're either, very successful or they aren't there; so there's no need for a seat belt...

[swansont]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Where can I get my alien-proof seat belt?

But my question stands, why are they hiding?

The answer is either, because they're gathering data (Is that to defeat us or study us?) or the answer is they're not strong enough to challenge us...

My point is they're either, very successful or they aren't there; so there's no need for a seat belt...

If they aren't strong enough to challenge us and we are prone to be belligerent, how is it in their best interest to reveal themselves?

 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, swansont said:

If they aren't strong enough to challenge us and we are prone to be belligerent, how is it in their best interest to reveal themselves?

They tried not too...

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Where can I get my alien-proof seat belt?

But my question stands, why are they hiding?

The answer is either, because they're gathering data (Is that to defeat us or study us?) or the answer is they're not strong enough to challenge us...

My point is they're either, very successful or they aren't there; so there's no need for a seat belt...

 

5 hours ago, swansont said:

If they aren't strong enough to challenge us and we are prone to be belligerent, how is it in their best interest to reveal themselves?

 

 (1) Any Alien species visiting Earth, would certainly be technologically advanced. (2) They would also more then likely have studied us for a period of time, and in that study, realize that while not as advanced as they are, we certainly are not anything like the comparisons we often hear, eg: Ants on an anthill/ human. (3) Being advanced and understanding 2, they would not have anything really to fear, and in deciding to make contact, would do it in a way that had their own protection as paramount, without any projection of violence etc towards us. (4) They would also most likely announce any proposed official revelation of their visit before hand. (5) On our part, if 4 was undertaken, I don't believe we would approach them belligerently, and enough reasonable people along with the science would prepare peacfully for that first contact.

Some points I take as a given to support the above....Any Alien species advanced enough to take on interstellar travel, would not really want for anything. Everything we have On Earth is spread throughout the universe in large enough quantities, and for us to approach any Alien species in a belligerent fashion, would not really make any sense.

I see the same approach made in the name of humanity/mankind, if and when we find evidence of life elsewhere, that has evolved beyond the single cell stage and approaching our own advancement and/or intelligence.

Or perhaps the movie "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" is somewhere near what I believe first contact should/would probably be like.

Edited December 11, 2021 by beecee

[dimreepr]

17 hours ago, beecee said:

I don't believe we would approach them belligerently, and enough reasonable people along with the science would prepare peacfully for that first contact.

That depends on the percieved threat level, so staying hidden is the best approach for all...

because when they're ready to threaten, we have no seat belt available; even if the alien is an ant hill.

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

That depends on the percieved threat level, so staying hidden is the best approach for all...

because when they're ready to threaten, we have no seat belt available; even if the alien is an ant hill.

And before anyone equates this statement with climate change; the climate has never hidden from us...

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

That depends on the percieved threat level, so staying hidden is the best approach for all...

Which threat level? us to them, or them to us? I certainly don't see them as a threat as they would be technologically advanced, and any Alien species advanced enough to take on interstellar travel, would not really want for anything. Everything we have On Earth is spread throughout the universe in large enough quantities, and as such, for us to approach any Alien species in a belligerent fashion, would not really make any sense.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

because when they're ready to threaten, we have no seat belt available; even if the alien is an ant hill.

I think you have  misunderstood. It is us that some construe as ants on an ant hill, compared to inter-stellar travelling Aliens...Perhaps that misunderstanding is my fault the following should be  (2) They would also more then likely have studied us for a period of time, and in that study, realize that while not as advanced as they are, we certainly are not anything like the comparisons we often hear, eg: Ants on an anthill/ Aliens...not Ants on an anthill/human.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

And before anyone equates this statement with climate change; the climate has never hidden from us...

Obviously. Not sure though wht anyone would equate, as one is scientifically validated, the other is just speculation.

Edited December 12, 2021 by beecee

[Intoscience]

On 12/10/2021 at 12:16 PM, dimreepr said:

Here's one:

Why are they hiding?

Because they can..., who says they are hiding? we might be just too blind to see. 

[swansont]

32 minutes ago, beecee said:

any Alien species advanced enough to take on interstellar travel, would not really want for anything

Not even raw materials? 

[beecee]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Not even raw materials? 

Raw materials that are found anywhere, rather then under taking inter planetary travel?

[swansont]

25 minutes ago, beecee said:

Raw materials that are found anywhere, rather then under taking inter planetary travel?

Interplanetary travel is assumed here.

Eventually you will need to replenish, and no, they are not found anywhere.

[beecee]

11 minutes ago, swansont said:

Interplanetary travel is assumed here.

I actually meant inter-stellar travel, as obviously the only advanced species in our system is Planet Earth.

12 minutes ago, swansont said:

Eventually you will need to replenish, and no, they are not found anywhere.

What is it that we find on Earth, that is not plentiful throughout the galaxy?

[swansont]

55 minutes ago, beecee said:

I actually meant inter-stellar travel, as obviously the only advanced species in our system is Planet Earth.

What is it that we find on Earth, that is not plentiful throughout the galaxy?

“throughout” is doing some heavy lifting here. There’s a whole lot of space. “nothing” is what’s plentiful

You don’t have to actually be on earth to be noticed.