Alien origin thought experiment.

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

No, you've missed the point entirely; I asked you to use your universal language to explain a feeling that an alien could understand without the necessary context.

Not at all; This is simply more of your usual dimreeper avoidance for whatever reason/s you have. Your "hunger" red herring has been answered. Perhaps do what I suggested...you know,   If you don't believe me go try it. I'll wait for you with my pork chops and salad. 😅

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Instead you try to explain why we don't need a universal language, it's almost like you don't speak the language you insist is universal. 

Mathematics is said to be the universal language, at least for an advanced species.

The Voyager golden record and the Pioneer Plaque.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

That sound's like something the Borg would say...

You don't believe in using all your senses? It may enable you to see further then you do now. 

23 hours ago, beecee said:

 Thank you. While I wasn't giving that too much thought, my question would be can chemosynthesis ever take place without a parent star? 

 

We were all born in the belly of stars. Carl Sagan.

You failed to answer the above dimreeper? You also appear to do that a lot.

22 hours ago, studiot said:

Or just very long lived.

Yep, that's a legitimate proposition worth thinking about.

In a similar vane, what about "generation" type star ships? If any advanced Aliens, are on any voyage of discovery through the galaxy, what would be the chances that they are aggressive? Very minimal I suggest, but on the off chance that they are, I suggest they may avoid contact with other reasonably advanced civilisations ( such as us) for fear of damage/retribution on their star ship, that ended their voyage of discovery and all generations on board. Otherwise I envisage a scenario of them landing in some conveneint place, ( not out in the middle of nowhere) and asking the first humans to take me to your leader!!. If any of the unexplained UFO/UAP sightings were Alien controlled, this is what I would suggest would happen...no hiding, no kidnapping, no anal probing, no hiding and flittering in and then flittering out again.

On thinking further, perhaps this maybe our own first method of travelling to the stars? (generation type star ships) Particularly if we did observe an extra solar rocky planet similar to Earth.

Then we have that other possibility of eventually discovering some sort of warp travel or at least apparent relative speeds approaching light, and setting out and eventually overtaking the generation type star ship that set out a century or so earlier. The mind boggles!

In the end, all we can do is wait and see. When will we discover that ETL does exist? Some are suggesting within the next decade or two. That life will not be any advanced being, more likely some basic simple life either in the Ocean's of Europa, or Enceledus. I hope I'm still around when that happens.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by beecee

[studiot]

Thank you to both of those who replied to my post.

The point about thestory in the second part of  post was that humans were more intelligent but wated it squabbling amongst each other.

I wish I could remember the name of the story. It was really good.

 

[TheVat]

@studiot

It's a section of Pandora's Legions, by Christopher Anvil.  

I find that scenario (aggro oriented races stay stuck in their solar systems because they drain resources and sabotage themselves squabbling) easier to believe than the creepy "Dark Forest" one in The Three Body Problem.  (referenced in @swansont linked video and article)

Edited December 18, 2021 by TheVat
reason enough

[dimreepr]

15 hours ago, beecee said:

On 12/16/2021 at 8:32 PM, beecee said:

 Thank you. While I wasn't giving that too much thought, my question would be can chemosynthesis ever take place without a parent star? 

 

We were all born in the belly of stars. Carl Sagan.

You failed to answer the above dimreeper?

Because it's not relevant to the topic, but if you insist.

Firstly, chemosynthesis doesn't need sunlight, so a parent star isn't necessary* and secondly the sagan quote isn't relevant to your question, unless you mean a parent star litterally, in which case the question is meaningless.

* whether that means life is out there without a parent star is unknown, so the question is moot.

Now your turn:

How would you explain to an alien, that is sustained by absorbing light, that your hungry for pork chops and a salad?

Maybe go for a first, and actually answer this question.

[beecee]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Because it's not relevant to the topic, but if you insist.

🥱 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Firstly, chemosynthesis doesn't need sunlight, so a parent star isn't necessary* and secondly the sagan quote isn't relevant to your question, unless you mean a parent star litterally, in which case the question is meaningless.

Anything exisitng, all elements, compounds  etc need stars in the first instant. Let me give you the hint again.....We "were all born in the belly of stars". Carl Sagan.

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

.whether that means life is out there without a parent star is unknown, so the question is moot.

Now your turn:

Sure, I'm talking about, as most here are, intelligent life, and how mathematics could probably be the first interactions between them and us...not any life, and certainly not your silly red herrings that are not relevant. 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

How would you explain to an alien, that is sustained by absorbing light, that your hungry for pork chops and a salad?

Maybe go for a first, and actually answer this question.

When I meet one of your light absorbing, fabricated Aliens, I'll ask him. 

Now excuse me, *yawn* 

https://www.space.com/38449-how-would-we-talk-to-aliens.html

"Most thinkers, including famed astrophysicist Carl Sagan, agree that mathematics could serve as the foundation for our discussions. With that in mind, British scientist Lancelot Thomas Hogben rafted a language system called Astraglossa. Communicated over radio signals, short pulses called "dashes" would represent numbers, and longer batteries of pulses called "flashes" would represent mathematical symbols like addition or subtraction. Once the basics of arithmetic are established between our species, Hogben imagined moving the discussion on to astronomy, a hobby we would obviously both have in common. After all, two aliens species talking about space would probably be like two Earthlings talking about the weather".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message

This is a demonstration of the message with color added to highlight its separate parts. The binary transmission sent carried no color information.

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Edited December 18, 2021 by beecee

[dimreepr]

15 minutes ago, beecee said:

🥱 

Anything exisitng, all elements, compounds  etc need stars in the first instant. Let me give you the hint again.....We "were all born in the belly of stars". Carl Sagan.

Sure, I'm talking about, as most here are, intelligent life, and how mathematics would probably be the first interactions between them and us...not any life, and certainly not your silly red herrings that are not relevant.

When I meet one of your light absorbing, fabricated Aliens, I'll ask him. 

Now excuse me, *yawn* 

https://www.space.com/38449-how-would-we-talk-to-aliens.html

"Most thinkers, including famed astrophysicist Carl Sagan, agree that mathematics could serve as the foundation for our discussions. With that in mind, British scientist Lancelot Thomas Hogben rafted a language system called Astraglossa. Communicated over radio signals, short pulses called "dashes" would represent numbers, and longer batteries of pulses called "flashes" would represent mathematical symbols like addition or subtraction. Once the basics of arithmetic are established between our species, Hogben imagined moving the discussion on to astronomy, a hobby we would obviously both have in common. After all, two aliens species talking about space would probably be like two Earthlings talking about the weather".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message

This is a demonstration of the message with color added to highlight its separate parts. The binary transmission sent carried no color information.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

 

 

Yawn... 🙄 

You don't seem to have read the topic title (or any of my post's), so perhaps you do that, and then how about you take a day off and just answer, yet another, honest straightforward question, honestly.

Pretty please... 🙏

Wir

[beecee]

PS dimreeper: just one more small thing...earlier you said, 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

It's not about who's more advanced, since there's no such thing as a babel fish and a universal translater is a fantasic fiction; language without context has no meaning.

and you then go on about....... 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

How would you explain to an alien, that is sustained by absorbing light, that your hungry for pork chops and a salad?

Time again for 

Rememebr we are talking about advanced Alien species

Edited December 18, 2021 by beecee

[dimreepr]

It's a thought experiment, so think about it...

[beecee]

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's a thought experiment, so think about it...

So why the continued hypocrisy? Think about it.  

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, beecee said:

Rememebr we are talking about advanced Alien species

Are you suggesting an advanced alien species can't be sustained by absobing light?

Or are you just anthropomorphising?

Just now, beecee said:

So why the continued hypocrisy? Think about it.  

I thought the implication was clear, do it honestly.

[beecee]

Ignoring the trolling and nonsense, it has been an interesting thread....Back to my first post where I said....... 

"I'm with an advanced civilisation from another planetary system.

 " On 6/19/2021 at 1:17 AM, Moontanman said:

I chose time travelers due to the resemblance the reported entities have to humans. I wouldn't expect aliens to resemble humans so closely.  "

Perhaps the "human resemblance" evolutionary process, is simply the most favoured to reach advanced intelligence and associated abilities. What I mean is that while an Octupus is obviously "intelligent" it is still confined somewhat by its evolutionary path.

I pick a civilisation from another planet simly because of the "near infinite" extent and content of our universe, and the stuff of life being everywhere we look.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

I still favour that position rather then time travellers for the resons given.

 

[dimreepr]

19 minutes ago, beecee said:

For the two to be equivalent they both have to be the same colour:

I'm trying to explain my position (different flavours) and you're trying to excuse your position (just bitter)...

[beecee]

And while certainly time and distance are the two great barriers making interplanetary contact difficult, (but not impossible) we can be damn sure no advanced species exists within our system (besides ourselves) 

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, beecee said:

Ignoring the trolling and nonsense

How many times are going to pick up the ball, stick out your tongue and go home, rather than answer a reasonable question?

The data suggests growing statistical significance.

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How many times are going to pick up the ball, stick out your tongue and go home, rather than answer a reasonable question?

The data suggests growing statistical significance.

Whatever floats your boat my friend. Like I have remarked before, I'm certainly not the first to comment on your rather weird/cryptic posting manner, and it looks like we can add hypocrisiy to those qualities.

I reject your delusions of reasonable questions not being answered, as I reject your philosophy. 

*yawn* waiting for the next brainwave comeback!🤮

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by beecee

[studiot]

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

@studiot

It's a section of Pandora's Legions, by Christopher Anvil.  

I find that scenario (aggro oriented races stay stuck in their solar systems because they drain resources and sabotage themselves squabbling) easier to believe than the creepy "Dark Forest" one in The Three Body Problem.  (referenced in @swansont linked video and article)

Yes that's the story, though I seem to remember it was slightly more detailed when I first read it. +1

I have never heard of Pandora's Legions , though if there are more like this one they could be good.

You link give 2002 as a publication date, but I first read this one in the mid 1960s.
I used to look forwards to receiving the Gollanz Worlds Best SF annual (book) every year at Christmas.
This would have probably been in the 1966 or 67 one.

[TheVat]

53 minutes ago, studiot said:

Yes that's the story, though I seem to remember it was slightly more detailed when I first read it. +1

I have never heard of Pandora's Legions , though if there are more like this one they could be good.

You link give 2002 as a publication date, but I first read this one in the mid 1960s.
I used to look forwards to receiving the Gollanz Worlds Best SF annual (book) every year at Christmas.
This would have probably been in the 1966 or 67 one.

I should explain: P's Ls was assembled from much older stories, some of which the author wrote and published in mags in the late sixties and seventies, which were added to some other chapters to unify it all into a more epic story.  The one you remember, with the "loptails" reference, was indeed a separate story back then.  

[beecee]

7 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I should explain: P's Ls was assembled from much older stories, some of which the author wrote and published in mags in the late sixties and seventies, which were added to some other chapters to unify it all into a more epic story.  The one you remember, with the "loptails" reference, was indeed a separate story back then.  

In the 60's and 70's I was deeply engrossed in Arthur C Clarke and Isacc Asimov, and was ignorant of Anvil and Pandora's Legions.....

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/589014.Pandora_s_Legions

Perhaps worthwhile considering reading. (if any copies are available)

[studiot]

On 6/17/2021 at 3:42 AM, Moontanman said:

Just as a thought experiment lets say that on June 25th the Pentagon confirms that UAPs or UFOs are indeed crafts of some sort from another place driven by the little grey guys so often described as being their pilots. I am going to add a poll for the four possibilities that cover what is being reported by people who see and or interact with the crafts. 

I know that you are actually talking about "are indeed crafts of some sort from another place", and to this I would reply they are reflections of another dimension or set of dimensions as my explanation.

But

The question has been raised here as to whether any extra terrestrial life we encounter is more or less intelligent than we are.

 

First observation to consider.

How many intelligent species are there on Earth and how many small and microscopic species ?

Second observation to consider

We know that such small life can tolerate extreme conditions way beyond our own ability.
Also some of these have had the ability to lie dormant for thousands of years and then revive or be revived.

Both of which lead me to believe that it is much more likely that these characteristics would help such small organisms in crossing the distance from far off places.

So I consider it much more likely that our first meeting with alien life will be with a less intelligent form.

 

[Bufofrog]

10 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Are you suggesting an advanced alien species can't be sustained by absobing light?

It seems to me that there is not enough energy from sunlight to sustain a large mobile creature.  I base that on the fact that there has been life that is sustained by sunlight only for billions of years and yet there have never been (AFAIK) any photosynthesizing life larger than microscopic that was mobile. 

[swansont]

20 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

It seems to me that there is not enough energy from sunlight to sustain a large mobile creature.  I base that on the fact that there has been life that is sustained by sunlight only for billions of years and yet there have never been (AFAIK) any photosynthesizing life larger than microscopic that was mobile. 

1 food calorie is ~4.1 kilojoules. If you need 2000 food calories, then you need 8.2 Megajoules. A fair bit of that for a human is sustaining our warm-bloodedness

If your solar insolation is 250 kw/m^2 for 10 hours, that’s 9 Mj/m^2. 

The energy isn’t the limit. 

 

[Bufofrog]

17 minutes ago, swansont said:

1 food calorie is ~4.1 kilojoules. If you need 2000 food calories, then you need 8.2 Megajoules. A fair bit of that for a human is sustaining our warm-bloodedness

If your solar insolation is 250 kw/m^2 for 10 hours, that’s 9 Mj/m^2. 

The energy isn’t the limit. 

The maximum theoretical efficiency of photosynthesis is 26% and the actual utilization is less than that.  The average human has a surface area of a bit under 2 m^2 so that means the you would get less than 2 megajoules per day.  You would also need thin translucent thin skin and spend most your time in the sunshine.  You would also have to find some method to obtain the nutrients that are necessary.  I still do not think a photosynthesizing large mobile animal makes sense.

[TheVat]

35 minutes ago, swansont said:

1 food calorie is ~4.1 kilojoules. If you need 2000 food calories, then you need 8.2 Megajoules. A fair bit of that for a human is sustaining our warm-bloodedness

If your solar insolation is 250 kw/m^2 for 10 hours, that’s 9 Mj/m^2. 

The energy isn’t the limit. 

 

That seems off.  Average solar insolation is 1.36 kW/m^2.  And that's top of the atmosphere directly facing sun.  IIRC, at ground level it's more like one kW.  

[beecee]

3 hours ago, studiot said:

So I consider it much more likely that our first meeting with alien life will be with a less intelligent form.

I see that as a near certainty. +1

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

That seems off.  Average solar insolation is 1.36 kW/m^2.  And that's top of the atmosphere directly facing sun.  IIRC, at ground level it's more like one kW.  

Less than that. In California, it's about 5 kwhr in 24 hrs, so an average of about 200w.