Moontanman Posted January 13, 2022 Author Posted January 13, 2022 I think it should be said that the octopus in the above video is not your run of the mill octopus, I've never seen one even come close to moving on land like that one did. I've kept dozens in captivity and seen dozens in the wild. I've actually had three, years apart, crawl up out of the surf and attempt to crawl up my leg but in all cases the octopus looked more like a glob of goo with arms flowing along on land. I am fascinated by the above video, the octopus actually is able to maintain it's bodies integrity while moving fast, faster than the crab, which is almost unbelievable on land. If I hadn't seen the video I wouldn't have believed it, I've heard of octopus crawling out of the water around dock and catching rats but that is just hearsay. Oh and an octopus has 9 brains, networked together, but they can act independently as well. Natural selection is a harsh mistress but it does produce surprising results. +
beecee Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Natural selection is a harsh mistress but it does produce surprising results. + Sure it does, and obviously the octopuse is among the most surprising.... here's another article... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/2017/sep/18/octlantis-the-underwater-city-built-by-octopuses Hve you heard of the Sydney blue ringed octopus? It's bite/poison can kill a grown man in a short time..................... "At first glance, the blue-ringed octopus looks perfectly innocuous. Its psychedelic coloring and pint-sized packaging make it seem more adorable than alarming. But don’t let its cuddly exterior fool you: this tiny octopus can kill you. And quickly. Native to the Pacific Ocean, the blue-ringed octopus can be found in the soft, sandy bottom of shallow tide pools and coral reefs. When not seeking food or a mate, blue-ringed octopuses often hide in crevices, shells or marine debris. If you catch them outside of their cozy hiding spots, it’s easy to see how the animal gets its name: when threatened, bright blue rings appear all over its body as a warning signal to potential predators". more............
Moontanman Posted January 14, 2022 Author Posted January 14, 2022 4 hours ago, beecee said: Sure it does, and obviously the octopuse is among the most surprising.... here's another article... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/2017/sep/18/octlantis-the-underwater-city-built-by-octopuses Hve you heard of the Sydney blue ringed octopus? It's bite/poison can kill a grown man in a short time..................... "At first glance, the blue-ringed octopus looks perfectly innocuous. Its psychedelic coloring and pint-sized packaging make it seem more adorable than alarming. But don’t let its cuddly exterior fool you: this tiny octopus can kill you. And quickly. Native to the Pacific Ocean, the blue-ringed octopus can be found in the soft, sandy bottom of shallow tide pools and coral reefs. When not seeking food or a mate, blue-ringed octopuses often hide in crevices, shells or marine debris. If you catch them outside of their cozy hiding spots, it’s easy to see how the animal gets its name: when threatened, bright blue rings appear all over its body as a warning signal to potential predators". more............ Actually I've kept them in captivity, not much fun as you can't interact with them. I've managed to keep small squids for short periods of time, weeks, I'd love to try cuttlefish I think they are quite special in intelligence and communication. All octopus have a beak and can bite and inject poison but they mostly use it on crabs or other crustaceans. But my point is that on another planet even vertebrates are not a sure thing much less humanoids.
dimreepr Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 17 hours ago, beecee said: Missed nothing actually...octopuses and tomato plants will never evolve into space faring entities, despite if going back further enough (as I referenced a few pages ago) we have a common ancestory. Not really interested in your poker analogy, as per most of the links you have made.. An analogy is a means of conveying understanding through a shared experience, if you can't play poker then we don't have a shared experience and communication is probably less possible. You say impossible, while admitting the possibility, 17 hours ago, beecee said: I don't say humans are "smarter" per se then other animals, but we are serendipitiously evolutionary different, in such ways as to be the dominant/apex species, that will one day probably leave his home planet to establish colonies on other worlds... You should think seriously about that statement. I have, and the word 'probably' leaps out and ties in with my analogy... It's a leap of faith that the next hand, will be the nuts; there's no way to be sure, even if you're the dealer... The thing your missing is, tomorrow is not the same as today and never will be, every day is a different hand with a different outcome. Your bluff is self evidently, not a fact... 18 hours ago, beecee said: Missed nothing actually...octopuses and tomato plants will never evolve into space faring entities, despite if going back further enough (as I referenced a few pages ago) we have a common ancestory. Not really interested in your poker analogy, as per most of the links you have made.. An analogy is a means of conveying understanding through a shared experience, if you can't play poker then we don't have a shared experience and communication is probably less possible. You say impossible, while admitting the possibility, 18 hours ago, beecee said: I don't say humans are "smarter" per se then other animals, but we are serendipitiously evolutionary different, in such ways as to be the dominant/apex species, that will one day probably leave his home planet to establish colonies on other worlds... You should think seriously about that statement. I have, and the word 'probably' leaps out and ties in with my analogy... It's a leap of faith that the next hand, will be the nuts; there's no way to be sure, even if you're the dealer... The thing your missing is, tomorrow is not the same as today and never will be, every day is a different hand with a different outcome. Your bluff is self evidently, not a fact...
beecee Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, dimreepr said: You say impossible, while admitting the possibility, Ho hum! I'm saying its as close to zero as to be impossible, not withstanding your rather childish pretentiousness and inability to admit you were/are wrong as you have been in most of your "conclusions" regarding this thread (and others). eg: as per, not answering the OP question...claiming you were the first to raise octopuses...plenty of rhetoric, no substance....weird irrelevant videos....hypocritically whinging about condescending....eventually admitting I am right, but not admitting I am right ☺️....claiming I am prejudice...claiming I am bluffing...irrelevent "poker" analogies...a general weird cryptic style in answering/avoiding answering, and as has been noted by others. All in all, scraping the bottom of the barrel, in a vane effort to promote your life philosophy. A nice bluff. Octopuses and tomatoes, will never evolve to be space faring entities, as per the many many reasons, in the many, many links I have given, and that you have (along with the OP) yet to refute/answer. Edited January 14, 2022 by beecee
beecee Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 6 hours ago, dimreepr said: You say impossible, while admitting the possibility, As you have shown previously, your gullibility perhaps is what ought to be questioned. Octopuses and/or tomato plants, to become space travellers, is about as possible as spiderman evolving. or perhaps one of his arch enemies....Sandman! Yes, I also enjoyed the Spiderman movies! 🤣 1 hour ago, beecee said: I don't say humans are "smarter" per se then other animals, but we are serendipitiously evolutionary different, in such ways as to be the dominant/apex species, that will one day probably leave his home planet to establish colonies on other worlds... You should think seriously about that statement. 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: I have, and the word 'probably' leaps out and ties in with my analogy... While understanding how hard it is for person as philosophically educated as yourself, to heed the advice of a retired maintenance fitter/machinist/welder, you perhaps ought to research some reputable articles, on the scientific methodology, what a scientific theory is, and how certain it is, and how those same theories gain certainty over time. Just because I reject your life philosophy, is no reason why you should grapple with accepting my reasonable conclusions, particularly with regards to octopuses and tomato plants, and their obvious limitations and evolutionary pathways, (as listed in my many links) preventing them becoming conquerers of planet Earth, and space faring entities. It won't happen. Once you accept that, then perhaps we can both cease the condescending attitudes and disguised insults.
dimreepr Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, beecee said: Ho hum! I'm saying its as close to zero as to be impossible, not withstanding your rather childish pretentiousness and inability to admit you were/are wrong as you have been in most of your "conclusions" regarding this thread (and others). eg: as per, not answering the OP question...claiming you were the first to raise octopuses...plenty of rhetoric, no substance....weird irrelevant videos....hypocritically whinging about condescending....eventually admitting I am right, but not admitting I am right ☺️....claiming I am prejudice...claiming I am bluffing...irrelevent "poker" analogies...a general weird cryptic style in answering/avoiding answering, and as has been noted by others. All in all, scraping the bottom of the barrel, in a vane effort to promote your life philosophy. A nice bluff. Octopuses and tomatoes, will never evolve to be space faring entities, as per the many many reasons, in the many, many links I have given, and that you have (along with the OP) yet to refute/answer. Hmm, where to start... I've never said I was the first to bring up octopuses (yet another example of you not actually reading my post), I said I mentioned them as an example of the difficulty in communicating with an alien species, but instead of addressing that point you drag us down this off topic pointless tangent; while simultaneously demonstrating my point, we're both human and speak the same language and even we can't have a meaningful conversation. Just because the conditions on earth now, seemingly won't allow a space fairing alien with a tomatoe/octopus as an ancestor, doesn't mean it's impossible on a different planet with the right conditions (like I said every generation is a new hand and every planet is a different game); correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that the point of this topic/thought experiment? The rest of the vitriolic diatribe, is yet another example of your condescending nature; all I ask is you actually read my post's and think about it, rather than just seeking an excuse that makes you right; and no, I'm not saying I am. Edited January 15, 2022 by dimreepr
Moontanman Posted January 15, 2022 Author Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) I honestly do not think that assuming that an octopus, given a few hundred million years of evolution, couldn't evolve into a space fairing species is a bit of hubris considering what was to be our ancestor several hundred million years ago. Pikaia Edited January 15, 2022 by Moontanman 1
beecee Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: Hmm, where to start... Addressing the OP question/s. 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: I've never said I was the first to bring up octopuses (yet another example of you not actually reading my post), I said I mentioned them as an example of the difficulty in communicating with an alien species No you said "I first mentioned them" but yes, perhaps I miss read. See? that wasn't hard, was it? 🤭 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: we're both human and speak the same language and even we can't have a meaningful conversation. Perhaps as others have noted, you need to tone down your weird cryptic style, and nonsensical irrelevant videos, along of course with the obvious hypocrisiy and we may communicate far better. 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: Just because the conditions on earth now, seemingly won't allow a space fairing alien with a tomatoe/octopus as an ancestor, doesn't mean it's impossible on a different planet with the right conditions (like I said every generation is a new hand and every planet is a different game); correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that the point of this topic/thought experiment? Any evolutionary process that gives us octopuses or tomatoes, ( as we know them) are evolutionarilly constrained from evolving into space faring entities, as per the many, many reasons, in my many, many links. You need to address those. 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: The rest of the vitriolic diatribe, is yet another example of your condescending nature; all I ask is you actually read my post's and think about it, Vitriolic diatribe? 😆 You mean you don't like me raising your many short comings, like, "eg: as per, not answering the OP question....plenty of rhetoric, no substance....weird irrelevant videos....hypocritically whinging about condescending....eventually admitting I am right, but not admitting I am right ☺️....claiming I am prejudice...claiming I am bluffing...irrelevent "poker" analogies...a general weird cryptic style in answering/avoiding answering, and as has been noted by others. All in all, scraping the bottom of the barrel, in a vane effort to promote your life philosophy" Methinks thou dost protest too much.😉 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: rather than just seeking an excuse that makes you right; and no, I'm not saying I am. Of course you are! You are expecting me to agree with all your rather argumentive stances in what I have claimed, and the evidence I have supplied to support that...like advanced Alien species, should be able to communicate adequately using that which is universal thoughout the cosmos...eg: mathematics, and geometric illustrations, as per our own Pioneer and Voyager probes, on the off chance that one day some advanced Alien species, may intercept them. And if you believe I am only seeking excuses (actually reasons) that makes me right, then you need to address all the links I have given, and all the reasons why octopuses and tomato plants will not evolve into space faring entities. It's not that hard. The ball is in your court. Edited January 15, 2022 by beecee
TheVat Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 12 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I honestly do not think that assuming that an octopus, given a few hundred million years of evolution, couldn't evolve into a space fairing species is a bit of hubris considering what was to be our ancestor several hundred million years ago. Pikaia Yep. Anything with a brain and some selective pressure towards articulated appendages is a candidate to become a techno-species, seems like. Haven't looked in for a while, surprised at some of the entrenchment here. Jeez, we only have a single data point on what a technological creature can be like. 1
beecee Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I honestly do not think that assuming that an octopus, given a few hundred million years of evolution, couldn't evolve into a space fairing species is a bit of hubris considering what was to be our ancestor several hundred million years ago. Pikaia Considering our evolutionary pathways since those several hundred million years, the chances of that happening are near zero. https://www.quora.com/Could-octopuses-theoretically-evolve-to-become-a-space-faring-civilization-If-yes-what-do-you-think-it-could-look-like My choice of answers ( among those given) is best illustrated as follows..... "The problem with the “Is it possible?” class of questions is that our explorations of the world have taught us that it is unwise to put constraints on what is possible. It may be more useful to address the probability of this happening. The first question may be “why?”. What sort of environmental pressure would direct octopus future evolution in such a way as to make the additional metabolic cost of a larger brain more advantageous to their survival than their present method of laying 60,000 eggs and relying on force of numbers? Their present method has been working rather well for some unknown hundreds of millions of years through a wide range of environmental changes. Now as long as we are rolling our nearly-infinite-sided dice, if somehow they became aware - and aware of an impending planetary cataclysm, that could prompt them to become “space-faring”. Aside from smelting metals, they could have access to a variety of biologically derived structures based on coral or the ability of mollusks to build shells. It is unlikely that we would suddenly see a coral starship rise out of the ocean. It would be more in line with their historical behavior to perhaps build heavily armored “seeds” that would contain millions of dormant eggs. These seeds would remain on the sea floor or protected in bedrock waiting for the Earth to disintegrate whereupon they would be scattered to the stars waiting to fall into some faraway hospitable ocean. This may not be the space-faring civilization you had in mind, but if we ever travel among the stars, the past futurists’ preposterous visions of our present should teach us that it will look nothing like we imagine it today". https://theconversation.com/curious-kids-could-octopuses-evolve-until-they-take-over-the-world-and-travel-to-space-156493 LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Or this from an evolutionary biologist....... https://www.quora.com/Could-octopuses-ever-evolve-into-a-sapient-species-Why-or-why-not Joel Reid , Science teacher Updated Jun 24, 2019 · Upvoted by Matan Shelomi , Organismic and Evolutionary Biologist and David Bahry , MSc Evolutionary Biology, Carleton University (2021) Originally Answered: Could octopuses ever evolve into a sentient species? Why or why not? No, octopuses are unlikely to evolve into a sapient species … but the reason why is sort of sad. Octopuses are indeed highly intelligent creatures, but they suffer a drawback in their evolution that is so severe that they lack the ability to develop their intelligence past a single generation … they have extremely short lives. An octopus has one purpose in life … babies. A father will die weeks after mating. A mother octopus will starve herself to death rather than leave her brood alone even for a second … and this is actually the most common form of death for an octopus. This means that as the mother dies then the offspring are born, meaning they never transmit their knowledge to the next generation. Octopuses that do not reproduce will soon die anyway. The life expectancy for a healthy, safe, octopus who does not have a brood to watch over reaches up to 5 years. And that is the maximum range. The reality is that octopuses simply do not live long enough, nor have time to pass on their knowledge. Unless they evolve longer lives then they are stuck where they are in terms of intelligence. Edited January 15, 2022 by beecee
beecee Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) Here is a scientific paper, supporting most of what I believe and as detailed in my previous links. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303652521_Beyond_the_Octopus_From_General_Intelligence_Toward_a_Human-Like_Mind Beyond the Octopus: From General Intelligence toward a Human-like Mind: Abstract: General intelligence varies with species and environment. Octopuses are highly intelligent, sensing and rapidly learning the complex properties of their world. But as asocial creatures, all their learned knowledge dies with them. Humans, on the other hand, are exceedingly social, gathering much more complex information and sharing it with others in their family, community and wider culture. In between those extremes there are several distinct types, or levels, of reasoning and information sharing that we characterize as a metaphorical “ladder” of intelligence. Simple social species occupy a “rung” above octopuses. Their young passively learn the ways of their species from parents and siblings in their early lives. On the next rung, “cultural” social animals such as primates, corvids, cetaceans, and elephants actively teach a complex culture to their young over much longer juvenile learning periods. Human-level intelligence relies on all of those lower rungs and adds three more: information sharing via oral language, then literacy, and finally civilization-wide sharing. The human mind, human behavior, and the very ontology with which we structure and reason about our world relies upon the integration of all these rungs. AGI researchers will need to recapitulate the entire ladder to produce a human-like mind. Conclusion: The octopus is clearly quite clever. Building an AGI with intelligence roughly equivalent to that of an octopus would be quite a challenge, and perhaps an unwise one if it were allowed to act autonomously. A human-level AGI is far more challenging and, we believe, quite hopeless if one attempts to start at the higher rungs of the intelligence ladder and somehow finesse the lower rungs or fill them in later. From the beginning of ancient philosophical discourse through the recent decades of AI and now AGI research, mankind’s quest to understand and eventually emulate the human mind in a machine has borne fruit in the ever-increasing understanding of our own intelligence and behavior as well as the sometimes daunting limitations of our machines. The human mind does not exist in splendid isolation. It depends on other minds in other times and places interacting in multiple ways that we characterize in terms of a metaphorical ladder. Mapping out the journey ahead and acknowledging the challenges before us, we must begin at the base of the ladder and climb one rung at a time- 2 hours ago, TheVat said: Haven't looked in for a while, surprised at some of the entrenchment here. Jeez, we only have a single data point on what a technological creature can be like. Any entrenchment on my part, is simply due to the evidence of probablity and reason, as per my many links so far. I also see any advanced space faring entity as probably humanoid in shape, as per the Aliens in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" rather than the creatures in "Arrival" I do accept reptillian like Aliens with the two legs, arms, head, eyes, brain, fingers etc, but reject ( as per my many links) any probablity of octopuses and/or tomato plants becoming space faring, primarilly because they are confined by their own evolutionary traits and need for water/Oceans. Sad but true. https://next.voxcreative.com/sponsored/11387354/here-are-5-things-serious-scientists-believe-about-extraterrestrial 1. THEY MAY LOOK JUST LIKE US. "Simon Conway Morris, an evolutionary biologist at Cambridge, thinks there’s a good chance intelligent extraterrestrial life will look a lot like us. Different species independently evolve in similar patterns, Morris argued in The Runes of Evolution, and would likely do the same on other planets. "The things which we regard as most important," he said in an interview, "cognitive sophistication, large brains, intelligence, tool making, are also convergent." If there are other planets that look a lot like planet Earth — and the Kepler spacecraft is discovering that there are — then the likelihood of human-like extraterrestrial intelligence on those planets isn’t a huge stretch. "If the outcomes of evolution are at least broadly predictable," Morris said, "then what applies on Earth will apply across the Milky Way, and beyond." more.... and another somewhat different view....... .... https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/g1592/we-asked-7-experts-what-would-aliens-actually-look-like/ extract: "Look at the incredible diversity of biotypes here on Earth, all of which evolved under the same planetary environment. I don't believe an alien species from an entirely different biochemical foundation would happen to turn out with two arms, two legs, two eyes, ears, nostrils...two genders, warm-blooded, and so on. But, for intelligence, one would assume brain capacity, and therefore the body, would need some sort of protective mechanism for the vital brain—an exoskeleton, a skull, something like that. "To build tools, they would need some kind of manipulative digits, like fingers (not necessarily an opposable thumb, maybe prehensile tentacles). There would have to be a reproductive system, but it could be budding, seeding, fission, egg laying—not necessarily live, warm-blooded birth. They would require some sort of sensory systems, the analogs of eyes, ears, smelling apparatuses. But their 'eyes' would have evolved for the peak spectrum of their own sun, not necessarily ours. more..... ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Edited January 15, 2022 by beecee
et pet Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 2 hours ago, TheVat said: Yep. Anything with a brain and some selective pressure towards articulated appendages is a candidate to become a techno-species, seems like. Yep, seems like. 2 hours ago, TheVat said: Jeez, we only have a single data point on what a technological creature can be like. And if truth be told, that single data point is not really from a space fairing species. A thought though If true 95% of everything is Dark Matter and something we can't witness? Like maybe only One in Twenty space fairing species will ever be regular Matter like us?
dimreepr Posted January 16, 2022 Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, beecee said: No you said "I first mentioned them" but yes, perhaps I miss read. See? that wasn't hard, was it? 🤭 Indeed... 18 hours ago, beecee said: Any evolutionary process that gives us octopuses or tomatoes, ( as we know them) are evolutionarilly constrained from evolving into space faring entities, as per the many, many reasons, in my many, many links. You need to address those. The problem with science in answering this type of question is, it has all of history to learn from and just a few seconds to extrapolate into the future. 15 hours ago, et pet said: Yep, seems like. And if truth be told, that single data point is not really from a space fairing species. A thought though If true 95% of everything is Dark Matter and something we can't witness? Like maybe only One in Twenty space fairing species will ever be regular Matter like us? Indeed, how would we communicate with them? 18 hours ago, beecee said: Vitriolic diatribe? 😆 You mean you don't like me raising your many short comings I know I have many short coming's, but I am a human and not a saint; like you... 🙄 Edited January 16, 2022 by dimreepr
TheVat Posted January 16, 2022 Posted January 16, 2022 Dark matter is not something you can make biological systems out of. If it were, it would just be... ordinary baryonic matter. I agree that octopi are a lower probability configuration for developing space technology. Was just saying there are exotic configurations we won't anticipate out there. Chinese SF master Liu Cixin comes to mind, in his novella "Mountain." (In his imaginative Wandering Earth collection).
beecee Posted January 16, 2022 Posted January 16, 2022 5 hours ago, dimreepr said: The problem with science in answering this type of question is, it has all of history to learn from and just a few seconds to extrapolate into the future. 🙄 I see more a problem with your life philosophy then with the proven discipline of science, of which none of us can do without. 🙄 5 hours ago, dimreepr said: Indeed, how would we communicate with them? If they were advanced beings, similar to ourselves, via mathetaics and descriptive geometry, as the Pioneer and Voyager craft potentially could do if one day intercepted by an advanced civilisation. 5 hours ago, dimreepr said: I know I have many short coming's, but I am a human and not a saint; like you... 😄 You mean because I reject your life philosophy on this and many other things? How pretentious of you. Actually this is nothing more than another of your usual pot, kettle, black exercises. I know and understand that sometimes I may seem a little rough around the edges but that's me. What you need to do to regain some respect and composure, is answer the OP question/s and understand via the reputable links I have given, that octopuses and tomato plants are not going to achieve space travel. Neither will we evolve into spiderman! 2 hours ago, TheVat said: Dark matter is not something you can make biological systems out of. If it were, it would just be... ordinary baryonic matter. I agree that octopi are a lower probability configuration for developing space technology. Was just saying there are exotic configurations we won't anticipate out there. Chinese SF master Liu Cixin comes to mind, in his novella "Mountain." (In his imaginative Wandering Earth collection). Both your's and Moontanman's contributions are appreciated...and yes I agree about exotoc figurations out there that we certainly are not anticipating. There are even thoughts on octopuses being actually Alien, as per the link I supplied earlier. this one.....https://carnegiemnh.org/ocotpus-communication-extra-terrestrial/ Now while I see "Panspermia" as a reasonable concept for the beginning of life on Earth, I don't really support the thoughts of octopuses being an example of that...we could pick a hundred of other weird lifeforms on Earth for that also.
Moontanman Posted January 16, 2022 Author Posted January 16, 2022 Why is everyone assuming that octopus could not adapt to living on land? Given opening up of evolutionary niches on land by, say a mass extinction of vertebrates, The octopus would seem to be a contender for being amphibious quite easily. Their reproductive strategy could change and they could become land animals, and having nine brains could result in a creature beyond our imagining just like pikaia, I bet no one here would have seen pikaia evolving into humans 450 million years ago. How many changes did pikaia have to go through to become us. Imagine that on an alien planet vertebrates never evolved, pikaia could have gone extinct. There is no guarantee that vertebrates would evolve on another planet. Speculative evolution video
beecee Posted January 16, 2022 Posted January 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Why is everyone assuming that octopus could not adapt to living on land? Given opening up of evolutionary niches on land by, say a mass extinction of vertebrates, The octopus would seem to be a contender for being amphibious quite easily. Perhaps they could. But that's a far reach to claiming that they could achieve space travel. https://www.quora.com/Could-octopuses-theoretically-evolve-to-become-a-space-faring-civilization-If-yes-what-do-you-think-it-could-look-like My choice of answers ( among those given) is best illustrated as follows..... "The problem with the “Is it possible?” class of questions is that our explorations of the world have taught us that it is unwise to put constraints on what is possible. It may be more useful to address the probability of this happening. Here is a scientific paper, supporting most of what I believe and as detailed in my previous links. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303652521_Beyond_the_Octopus_From_General_Intelligence_Toward_a_Human-Like_Mind Beyond the Octopus: From General Intelligence toward a Human-like Mind: https://next.voxcreative.com/sponsored/11387354/here-are-5-things-serious-scientists-believe-about-extraterrestrial 1. THEY MAY LOOK JUST LIKE US. "Simon Conway Morris, an evolutionary biologist at Cambridge, thinks there’s a good chance intelligent extraterrestrial life will look a lot like us.
et pet Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, TheVat said: Dark matter is not something you can make biological systems out of. If it were, it would just be... ordinary baryonic matter. I agree that octopi are a lower probability configuration for developing space technology. Was just saying there are exotic configurations we won't anticipate out there. Chinese SF master Liu Cixin comes to mind, in his novella "Mountain." (In his imaginative Wandering Earth collection). Sorry, I did not know that Scientists had studied Dark Matter to the point of knowing all of it's properties. 5 hours ago, Moontanman said: Why is everyone assuming that octopus could not adapt to living on land? Given opening up of evolutionary niches on land by, say a mass extinction of vertebrates, The octopus would seem to be a contender for being amphibious quite easily. Their reproductive strategy could change and they could become land animals, and having nine brains could result in a creature beyond our imagining just like pikaia, I bet no one here would have seen pikaia evolving into humans 450 million years ago. How many changes did pikaia have to go through to become us. Imagine that on an alien planet vertebrates never evolved, pikaia could have gone extinct. There is no guarantee that vertebrates would evolve on another planet. Speculative evolution video It may be that assuming (and maybe even Fiction) is part of Science to some. Like and agree with your Posts, BTW!!! Edited January 17, 2022 by et pet clarification
TheVat Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 They know some of the properties it DOESN'T have, which is what is relevant to my comment. If it were able to condense into complex molecular structures, then it would do things like scatter light and other interactions that would make it more visible to us. The main candidate for DM are non baryonic weakly interacting particles. You may find wiki helpful on this, if you are interested.
dimreepr Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 16 hours ago, beecee said: "The problem with the “Is it possible?” class of questions is that our explorations of the world have taught us that it is unwise to put constraints on what is possible. It may be more useful to address the probability of this happening. The problem with that aproach, in this case, is like meteorology, the further you get from the initial conditions the less accurate the forcast; it's only the time-frame that's different, 1,000 generations = a day's weather = very accurate, 10,000 generations = a week = reasonably accurate, 100,000 generations = a month = not very accurate, 1,000,000 = a year = no accuracy. 17 hours ago, beecee said: 😄 You mean because I reject your life philosophy on this and many other things? How pretentious of you. I mean I base my conclusion's on the evidence of this, and many other pages of our interactions. I'm not pretending to be a scientist or a philosopher; just saying what I see... You reject all reasonable/difficult question's by refusing to answer them, you counter reasonable arguments with gainsay, or any available fallacy, just to be right; and you claim it's me that's pretending... 17 hours ago, beecee said: If they were advanced beings, similar to ourselves, via mathetaics and descriptive geometry, as the Pioneer and Voyager craft potentially could do if one day intercepted by an advanced civilisation. I don't deny the potential of a rudimentary understanding between alien's, especially if they are just like us; what I deny is, communication will be easy. Show me an example of Dr Dolittle and I'll show you an example of spiderman... 😉
beecee Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 5 hours ago, dimreepr said: The problem with that aproach, in this case, is like meteorology, the further you get from the initial conditions the less accurate the forcast; it's only the time-frame that's different, 1,000 generations = a day's weather = very accurate, 10,000 generations = a week = reasonably accurate, 100,000 generations = a month = not very accurate, 1,000,000 = a year = no accuracy. But none of the answers given in any link even goes close in supporting your fanciful thoughts. And still far less problem then your own approach of making uninformed way out statements, without any references supporting such...coupled with your emotional reactions and accusations of hypocrisy, plenty of rhetoric, no substance....weird irrelevant videos.... whinging about condescending....eventually admitting I am right, but not admitting I am right ☺️....claiming I am prejudice...claiming I am bluffing...irrelevent "poker" analogies...a general weird cryptic style in answering/avoiding answering, and as has been noted by others. All in all, scraping the bottom of the barrel, in a vane effort to promote your life philosophy. 5 hours ago, dimreepr said: I mean I base my conclusion's on the evidence of this, and many other pages of our interactions. 🤭😆That's exactly what you don't do my friend! Childishly refusal to answer the OP, childish accusations, no references, no links. But just in case you keep missing my links for some unknown magical reason, here we go again..... https://www.quora.com/Could-octopuses-theoretically-evolve-to-become-a-space-faring-civilization-If-yes-what-do-you-think-it-could-look-like https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303652521_Beyond_the_Octopus_From_General_Intelligence_Toward_a_Human-Like_Mind https://next.voxcreative.com/sponsored/11387354/here-are-5-things-serious-scientists-believe-about-extraterrestrial There just the references and links on this page...too lazy to go back further.... 6 hours ago, dimreepr said: I'm not pretending to be a scientist or a philosopher; just saying what I see... See the previous links, and if you are able, post references supporting your stance. Your pretense is not very convincing. 6 hours ago, dimreepr said: You reject all reasonable/difficult question's by refusing to answer them, you counter reasonable arguments with gainsay, or any available fallacy, just to be right; and you claim it's me that's pretending... 🥱 You forgot my prejudice and my bluffing! 😄 Yes I reject your fanciful proclomations/claims, and support those rejections with links and references. 6 hours ago, dimreepr said: I don't deny the potential of a rudimentary understanding between alien's, especially if they are just like us; what I deny is, communication will be easy. So why didn't you say that? Instead of beating round the bush, essentially trying to make yourself something you are not? ( I'm not pretending to be a scientist or a philosopher; just saying what I see.) I didn't say it would be easy either. I said "universal" mathematics and descriptive illustrations and geometry, would likely be a means of communications, with advanced beings, not with octopuses and tomato plants. eg: our own Pioneer and Voyager probes. 6 hours ago, dimreepr said: Show me an example of Dr Dolittle and I'll show you an example of spiderman... Since it seems it has gone over your head, my mention of spiderman and sandman was to illustrate the fanciful nature of your own predictions. Again, from a previous link...."The problem with the “Is it possible?” class of questions is that our explorations of the world have taught us that it is unwise to put constraints on what is possible. It may be more useful to address the probability of this happening." Reminds me of a time in the forties during WW2 when they commenced the Manhatten project. The probability of a fission bomb igniting the atmosphere and destroying the world was raised. It was discarded by the scientists, and many many explosive fission devices since have supported that. 17 hours ago, TheVat said: They know some of the properties it DOESN'T have, which is what is relevant to my comment. If it were able to condense into complex molecular structures, then it would do things like scatter light and other interactions that would make it more visible to us. The main candidate for DM are non baryonic weakly interacting particles. You may find wiki helpful on this, if you are interested. Agree with you, and invoke the same clause..."The problem with the “Is it possible?” class of questions is that our explorations of the world have taught us that it is unwise to put constraints on what is possible. It may be more useful to address the probability of this happening." In essence, DM is nothing more then a source of gravity, and life (as we know it) interacts with the other known forces via chemical reactions, which obviously DM does not..
beecee Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 I have read with some of the research I have done, that due to the remarkable intelligence of our Oceanic octopuses, that they be banned from dining room tables and restaurants. While I love calamari I would support such a move. Interesting to not that the ancient Hawaiians (probably still doing it) used the following to help capture these creatures...... "This octopus lure called a leho he`e is a tool of trickery. The octopus is attracted to the beautiful cowrie shell and the promise of a tasty meal but upon attack they are scooped up by Hawaiian fisherman. The lures are hung to 480-720 feet (146.4-219.6 m) and shaken up and down to entice the octopus. Not only did fishermen catch octopus for food, the practice was also a sport for the aristocracy. (Smithsonian Collections)" from https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/cephalopods
dimreepr Posted January 18, 2022 Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, beecee said: But none of the answers given in any link even goes close in supporting your fanciful thoughts. To your mind, which thought is fanciful? The fact that we can't predict next year's weather, with any accuracy. The fact that a change in the initial conditions requires a new prediction. Or the fact that predicting evolution is similarly constrained. Edited January 18, 2022 by dimreepr
beecee Posted January 18, 2022 Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, dimreepr said: Well said. Addressing none of the evidence, ignoring the OP as usual, and continuing being obtuse. Edited January 18, 2022 by beecee
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