Alien origin thought experiment.

[beecee]

Moving away from fanciful suggestions regarding octopuses and tomatoes evolving into space faring entities, and considering the possibility of comparable intelligent  or advanced life existing somewhere beyond our solar system, probably the most important issue is communication.

As mentioned many times, any advanced or comparable intelligence should be familiar with mathematics, (that discipline many orders of magnitude beyond the intelligence of an octopus...or tomato to understand)

Probably the closest reasonable intelligent Alien species could possibly exist on is Proxima b, although some anomalies that may prove difficult for life do exist. It orbits Proxima Centauri, a class M red dwarf star that undergoes flaring and extreme magnetic activity, that would not be condusive to life, as we know it, and on the surface. The other known planet orbiting Proxima is a "super Earth" called Proxima c.  Proxima b is within the habitable zone, (where water maybe found in liquid form) and Proxima c is at 1.5AU, well beyond.

Despite the problems that do exist, perhaps extra effort/s should be made to attempt some communication? Even if they lived underground. (remember, we are talking about comparable beings or advanced...not octopuses or tomatoes)

https://www.space.com/38449-how-would-we-talk-to-aliens.html

"Most thinkers, including famed astrophysicist Carl Sagan, agree that mathematics could serve as the foundation for our discussions. With that in mind, British scientist Lancelot Thomas Hogben rafted a language system called Astraglossa. Communicated over radio signals, short pulses called "dashes" would represent numbers, and longer batteries of pulses called "flashes" would represent mathematical symbols like addition or subtraction. Once the basics of arithmetic are established between our species, Hogben imagined moving the discussion on to astronomy, a hobby we would obviously both have in common. After all, two aliens species talking about space would probably be like two Earthlings talking about the weather".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message

This is a demonstration of the message with color added to highlight its separate parts. The binary transmission sent carried no color information.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_extraterrestrial_intelligence

Communication with extraterrestrial intelligence or CETI, is a branch of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) that focuses on composing and deciphering interstellar messages that theoretically could be understood by another technological civilization.^[1] The best-known CETI experiment of its kind was the 1974 Arecibo message composed by Frank Drake.

There are multiple independent organizations and individuals engaged in CETI research; the generic application of abbreviations CETI and SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) in this article should not be taken as referring to any particular organization (such as the SETI Institute).

CETI research has focused on four broad areas: mathematical languages, pictorial systems such as the Arecibo message, algorithmic communication systems (ACETI), and computational approaches to detecting and deciphering "natural" language communication. There remain many undeciphered writing systems in human communication, such as Linear A, discovered by archeologists. Much of the research effort is directed at how to overcome similar problems of decipherment that arise in many scenarios of interplanetary communication.

[beecee]

On 12/19/2021 at 9:33 AM, studiot said:

The question has been raised here as to whether any extra terrestrial life we encounter is more or less intelligent than we are.

 

First observation to consider.

How many intelligent species are there on Earth and how many small and microscopic species ?

Second observation to consider

We know that such small life can tolerate extreme conditions way beyond our own ability.
Also some of these have had the ability to lie dormant for thousands of years and then revive or be revived.

Both of which lead me to believe that it is much more likely that these characteristics would help such small organisms in crossing the distance from far off places.

So I consider it much more likely that our first meeting with alien life will be with a less intelligent form.

 

 100% agree as already noted. Just to elaborate, I'm not saying that advanced intelligent life does not exist, just that the results of abiogenesis that we should eventually find, will be of the most basic and fundamental examples.eg: seaweed or fungi like structures, perhaps in the Oceans of Europa, or the geysers of Enceledus. Perhaps even on a comet or asteroid, or inter-stellar interloper. Or perhaps on Proxima b?

 

 

[beecee]

16 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Octopuses drying on a line

[Moontanman]

3 hours ago, beecee said:

Octopuses drying on a line

I am going to be real with you, this image disturbs me, having interacted so much with octopus and the intelligence they showed it's like some one hanging a cat or a dog out to dry on a line. I had real interactions with them and could judge their emotions at least if not their thoughts by watching the colors run around their bodies. I would give them gifts of unusual materials and they acted as thought they really enjoyed the odd objects i gave them to build their houses. They really seemed to relish the oddities, except for ping pong balls they hated ping pong balls. They loved golf balls... go figure.     

BTW, squid are calamari, and i bet cuttlefish are smarter than octopus...then you have the very brainy mormyrids which i currently keep.   

Edited January 19, 2022 by Moontanman

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

I am going to be real with you, this image disturbs me,

I regret disturbing and upsetting you seriously. The point I'm trying to make is that perhaps octopuses and their close cousins, are not as smart as we generally give them credit for. That along with the Hawaiin trap seems to indicate that. Plus of course they still are a staple food diet.(plus it was a reaction to the irrelevant peanut cartoon )                                                         

I'm not saying that they are dumb, I'm simply saying to claim evolution could result in them becoming space farers, is nothing but ignorant fantasy, particularly when the party pushing it, fails to acknowledge any of the links supporting my case, refuses to answer the OP question, as you yourslef put, and continues on his weird and wonderful inexplicable irrelevant nonsense.And then gets all pretentiously upset and claims vicitm status. 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by beecee

[dimreepr]

13 hours ago, beecee said:

Moving away from fanciful suggestions regarding octopuses and tomatoes evolving into space faring entities, and considering the possibility of comparable intelligent  or advanced life existing somewhere beyond our solar system, probably the most important issue is communication.

As mentioned many times, any advanced or comparable intelligence should be familiar with mathematics, (that discipline many orders of magnitude beyond the intelligence of an octopus...or tomato to understand)

Probably the closest reasonable intelligent Alien species could possibly exist on is Proxima b, although some anomalies that may prove difficult for life do exist. It orbits Proxima Centauri, a class M red dwarf star that undergoes flaring and extreme magnetic activity, that would not be condusive to life, as we know it, and on the surface. The other known planet orbiting Proxima is a "super Earth" called Proxima c.  Proxima b is within the habitable zone, (where water maybe found in liquid form) and Proxima c is at 1.5AU, well beyond.

Despite the problems that do exist, perhaps extra effort/s should be made to attempt some communication? Even if they lived underground. (remember, we are talking about comparable beings or advanced...not octopuses or tomatoes)

https://www.space.com/38449-how-would-we-talk-to-aliens.html

"Most thinkers, including famed astrophysicist Carl Sagan, agree that mathematics could serve as the foundation for our discussions. With that in mind, British scientist Lancelot Thomas Hogben rafted a language system called Astraglossa. Communicated over radio signals, short pulses called "dashes" would represent numbers, and longer batteries of pulses called "flashes" would represent mathematical symbols like addition or subtraction. Once the basics of arithmetic are established between our species, Hogben imagined moving the discussion on to astronomy, a hobby we would obviously both have in common. After all, two aliens species talking about space would probably be like two Earthlings talking about the weather".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message

This is a demonstration of the message with color added to highlight its separate parts. The binary transmission sent carried no color information.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_extraterrestrial_intelligence

Communication with extraterrestrial intelligence or CETI, is a branch of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) that focuses on composing and deciphering interstellar messages that theoretically could be understood by another technological civilization.^[1] The best-known CETI experiment of its kind was the 1974 Arecibo message composed by Frank Drake.

There are multiple independent organizations and individuals engaged in CETI research; the generic application of abbreviations CETI and SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) in this article should not be taken as referring to any particular organization (such as the SETI Institute).

CETI research has focused on four broad areas: mathematical languages, pictorial systems such as the Arecibo message, algorithmic communication systems (ACETI), and computational approaches to detecting and deciphering "natural" language communication. There remain many undeciphered writing systems in human communication, such as Linear A, discovered by archeologists. Much of the research effort is directed at how to overcome similar problems of decipherment that arise in many scenarios of interplanetary communication.

https://www.newswise.com/articles/difficulties-in-communicating-with-aliens

Quote

 

Douglas Raybeck, Ph.D., professor of anthropology at Hamilton College in his presentation at CONTACT 2000 in Santa Clara California, March 3-5, says communicating with extraterrestrials will be more difficult to resolve than has been envisioned so far.

"There must be some commonality between the sender and receiver in order for communication to occur. We have no evidence that we'll have a way of decoding the information they send our way should we encounter extraterrestrials," says Raybeck.

 

 

[beecee]

13 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

https://www.newswise.com/articles/difficulties-in-communicating-with-aliens

 

Terrific!!! a link at last!!! Of course though it is just one, and I have given others just as reputable. 

from your link.....""There must be some commonality between the sender and receiver in order for communication to occur". And mathematics and descriptive geometry could be that commonality.

from your link again....."The solution? Computer technology. Raybeck believes the common ground (which is essential for communication) may be as minimal as the ability to process information. Computers could provide a solution, if they can receive and generate complex messages in a human language and could be programmed to create a common language. Given their learning capabilities, computers should refine and improve the process over time."

Didn'tthink of that, but hey! worth a try if all other means fail. thanks dimreeper.

Edited January 19, 2022 by beecee

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, beecee said:

Terrific!!! a link at last!!! Of course though it is just one, and I have given others just as reputable. 

You're conflating speculation with evidence, however reputable the source, it is only a best guess based on us and our computer's (which won't have the same protocols as an alien computer).

The actual evidence here on earth is, we have yet to have meaningful communications with any other animal, so it's reasonable for me too similarly speculate, admittedly more pessimistically, but then this is a discussion site.

[beecee]

20 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You're conflating speculation with evidence, however reputable the source, it is only a best guess based on us and our computer's (which won't have the same protocols as an alien computer).

The actual evidence here on earth is, we have yet to have meaningful communications with any other animal, so it's reasonable for me too similarly speculate, admittedly more pessimistically, but then this is a discussion site.

We are all speculating....I see the chances of communicating between advanced intelligent alien species as reasonable speculation. Plus of course the other life forms on Earth only have limited range of vocalizations, and do not fit into advanced civilisations catagory.:

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

We are all speculating....I see the chances of communicating between advanced intelligent alien species as reasonable speculation. Plus of course the other life forms on Earth only have limited range of vocalizations, and do not fit into advanced civilisations catagory.:

That's the point of my other, evidence based speculation; you can't possibly know how this planet will evolve, much less an alien world.

In your speculation it is assumed that advanced civilisations catagory has a limited membership, based on one data set; that's not reasonable speculation, that's belief in how special we are.

[studiot]

15 hours ago, beecee said:

 100% agree as already noted. Just to elaborate, I'm not saying that advanced intelligent life does not exist, just that the results of abiogenesis that we should eventually find, will be of the most basic and fundamental examples.eg: seaweed or fungi like structures, perhaps in the Oceans of Europa, or the geysers of Enceledus. Perhaps even on a comet or asteroid, or inter-stellar interloper. Or perhaps on Proxima b?

 

 

Thanks for the reply.

I really can't evaluate the 'intelligence' of octopussys, tomatoes or similar.
That would involve know exactly what intelligence is .

 

However the more we study Nature the more examples of 'intelligent ' activity we discover, even in the plant kingdom.

David Attenborough's latest 'planet' series has some striking new examples, some based on time lapse photography.
This is ideal for plants, which operate over a generally longer timescale than more mobile 'creatures'.
But Attenborough's time lapse video shows many plant behaving in a similar way to creatures over months or even years rather than minutes.

Such a tolerance of many years of timescale would give space travelling plants an advantage.

On another tack, it is well known that ants are livestock farmers.
But (again thank you Attenborough) on Sunday I found out that they are also arable farmers.
Apparantly they collect and compost (readers of the compost thread please note) suitable leaves and then feed them to certain fungi which produce substances the ants want.

 

 

[beecee]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

That's the point of my other, evidence based speculation; you can't possibly know how this planet will evolve, much less an alien world.

We are able to have reasonable estimates in how some evolutionary traits will not evolve, as per the reasons given previously. No scientific theory is 100% certain, except  evolution, but they are our best guess at any particular time,  and as they continue to match the observational and experimental data, they can grow more certain, eg: the BB, SR/GR.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

In your speculation it is assumed that advanced civilisations catagory has a limited membership, based on one data set; that's not reasonable speculation, that's belief in how special we are.

No, in my estimation, and the estimation of people expert in this discipline, certain evolutionary pathways, make it so highly unlikely that they won't become our masters, (like octopuses and tomatoes) as to be near certain...like any good scientific theory.

https://www.quora.com/Could-octopuses-theoretically-evolve-to-become-a-space-faring-civilization-If-yes-what-do-you-think-it-could-look-like..

"The problem with the “Is it possible?” class of questions is that our explorations of the world have taught us that it is unwise to put constraints on what is possible. It may be more useful to address the probability of this happening.

The first question may be “why?”. What sort of environmental pressure would direct octopus future evolution in such a way as to make the additional metabolic cost of a larger brain more advantageous to their survival than their present method of laying 60,000 eggs and relying on force of numbers? Their present method has been working rather well for some unknown hundreds of millions of years through a wide range of environmental changes.

Now as long as we are rolling our nearly-infinite-sided dice, if somehow they became aware - and aware of an impending planetary cataclysm, that could prompt them to become “space-faring”. Aside from smelting metals, they could have access to a variety of biologically derived structures based on coral or the ability of mollusks to build shells. It is unlikely that we would suddenly see a coral starship rise out of the ocean. It would be more in line with their historical behavior to perhaps build heavily armored “seeds” that would contain millions of dormant eggs. These seeds would remain on the sea floor or protected in bedrock waiting for the Earth to disintegrate whereupon they would be scattered to the stars waiting to fall into some faraway hospitable ocean.

This may not be the space-faring civilization you had in mind, but if we ever travel among the stars, the past futurists’ preposterous visions of our present should teach us that it will look nothing like we imagine it today".

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That's science, not simply speculation, and yes, indicates as far as we know, that we are special...we are the premium species on Earth, we can vocalise, socialise, have oppossing thumbs, are able to learn from the previous generation of giants, on whose shoulders we stand on, fabricate, construct, mine metals, undertake travel, including space travel etc. Why are you so reluctant to accept that in those senses, we certainly are special?

Yes sometimes we have abused our special niche on this fart arse little blue orb, and often we operate under the banner of "f%$# you, I'm alright Jack" (eg: Novak Djokovic in recent times) but the facts are (rightly or wrongly)that we are the species that rules Earth. 

But strangely enough, as our technology improves, as our knowledge is enhanced, as we venture further into space, we understand that the Earth itself, and our star the Sun, are nothing when taken along with the scale of the universe around us.

Carl Sagan's poignant narrative, "The Pale Blue Dot" best illustrates this. We don't even know yet whether we are the only intelligent, advanced civilisation within our observable universe...we aren't even sure if any life at all, exists anywhere else. Most believe it does, including me, but the sheer scale of the universe, makes time and distance barriers to that knowledge.

The Sun has a "use by date" the Earth has a use by date, we probably also have a use by date, but we can if we chose extend that date somewhat by moving out to the stars. So, yes we are special...nothing at all wrong in accepting that fact. 

5 hours ago, studiot said:

Thanks for the reply.

I really can't evaluate the 'intelligence' of octopussys, tomatoes or similar.
That would involve know exactly what intelligence is .

 

David Attenborough's latest 'planet' series has some striking new examples, some based on time lapse photography.

My simple defining of intellgence would be self awareness, understanding, learning and thinking in general? But I'm no expert, just a poor old retired tradesman.

I Love David Attenborough, and watch his stuff whenever I am able. He is a giant among men.

Edited January 19, 2022 by beecee

[dimreepr]

17 hours ago, beecee said:

We are able to have reasonable estimates in how some evolutionary traits will not evolve, as per the reasons given previously. No scientific theory is 100% certain, except  evolution, but they are our best guess at any particular time,  and as they continue to match the observational and experimental data, they can grow more certain, eg: the BB, SR/GR.

If we took the data set of life when it first emerged, it would be impossible to predict it would evolve into a bipedal, oxygen breathing entity that could escape the planet; one data set does not a theory make.

Let's not forget the topic title, and think about the possibility that an alien world would evovle differently.

17 hours ago, beecee said:

Now as long as we are rolling our nearly-infinite-sided dice, if somehow they became aware - and aware of an impending planetary cataclysm, that could prompt them to become “space-faring”. Aside from smelting metals, they could have access to a variety of biologically derived structures based on coral or the ability of mollusks to build shells. It is unlikely that we would suddenly see a coral starship rise out of the ocean.

How often do engineers refer to nature to improve their machines?

An F1 car has evolved to rely less and less on smelting metals and they still aren't the fastest on the planet...  

Quote

 

“This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.”

― Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

 

 

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

If we took the data set of life when it first emerged, it would be impossible to predict it would evolve into a bipedal, oxygen breathing entity that could escape the planet; one data set does not a theory make.

So? again, from the link "The problem with the “Is it possible?” class of questions is that our explorations of the world have taught us that it is unwise to put constraints on what is possible. It may be more useful to address the probability of this happening. (from my link)"

The probability of predicting what may have evolved from the first warm puddle 3 or 4 billion years ago, is a far cry from the educated probability predictions made by the Alpha result of that evolution (us) 3 or 4 billion years later, in that octopuses and tomatoes are near certain to never evolve into being space faring entities. Unless of course the Alpha result of that evolutionary process, (us) decide to take them along for the ride. 

Again, from the same link......"The first question may be “why?”. What sort of environmental pressure would direct octopus future evolution in such a way as to make the additional metabolic cost of a larger brain more advantageous to their survival than their present method of laying 60,000 eggs and relying on force of numbers? Their present method has been working rather well for some unknown hundreds of millions of years through a wide range of environmental changes".

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Let's not forget the topic title, and think about the possibility that an alien world would evovle differently.

I've answered with my explantions, the topic of the thread title, and the associated choices. Would you like me to repeat it again? I havn't seen your answer as yet, or your choices.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How often do engineers refer to nature to improve their machines?

An F1 car has evolved to rely less and less on smelting metals and they still aren't the fastest on the planet... 

Your first question, often. So?

Your second statement, again so? and secondly F1 cars don't evolve, they do though technically and mechanically improve, based on the research and data gathered by their special creators. Much of that entails observing nature and how other lifeforms have evolved to run fast, swim fast, reach the tops of leafy trees, smell out food and danger etc etc etc.

Edited January 20, 2022 by beecee

[Alex_Krycek]

Concerning the communication question, the Ariel School encounter circa 1994 offers some interesting clues.  In that encounter, witnesses described a physical alien craft landing on the outer perimeter of their school in remote Ruwa, Zimbabwe.  Several extraterrestrial beings emerged which then interacted with the students telepathically, projecting images into their consciousness of dire environmental destruction awaiting mankind, if humanity does not change course and amend their actions.  (Video clip of this encounter posted below).

The reference to telepathic communication by these witnesses is notable.  Projecting images into another being's consciousness would be an extremely effective way to communicate with / influence that being.  Human beings use image projection all the time to influence other humans: through television, films, internet memes, photography, virtual reality, and of course through written and spoken language.

Affecting another person's imagination, or you could say their inner mental model of reality, is also a very effective way of influencing that person's behavior.  Human beings remember sequences of images easier than abstract concepts, which is why most people naturally remember television shows and movies. 

It's also interesting that children were the chosen recipients of this message.  It seems the aliens were intent on creating a level of communication that would impact human behavior on a species level, i.e. transcend the individual experience and resonate with us collectively as a species. 

Inducing permanent species level change is no small task, especially when humanity is concerned.  First, think of all the ways that wouldn't work: landing their spaceship in Times Square would only induce terror and fighter jets.  Speaking to government leaders at the top of the power hierarchy would probably be useless and result in suppression of the message.  Even engaging with one particular nation directly would be very dangerous, since human beings are essentially territorial apes, and the perception of alien intervention in favor of one superpower might result in all out war (as was the premise of the movie "Arrival"). 

But children on a playground who will tell their story in an unbiased manner?  Such a situation might be the right set of circumstances to allow the information in the message to resonate collectively over time in an uncorrupted way.

Possible reasons why children were chosen for the communication:

• Children are less likely to respond with physical violence
• Children more open/receptive to the communication (won't become terrified and run away)

Possible Long Term Effects of the Interaction

• The children will grow up and spread their message to others, information resonates over time
• If the interaction garners enough credibility, that is, the public believes this was a real encounter, the gravity of the event may be enough to induce species level change

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Alex_Krycek

[beecee]

12 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Concerning the communication question, the Ariel School encounter circa 1994 offers some interesting clues.  In that encounter, witnesses described a physical alien craft landing on the outer perimeter of their school in remote Ruwa, Zimbabwe.  Several extraterrestrial beings emerged which then interacted with the students telepathically, projecting images into their consciousness of dire environmental destruction awaiting mankind, if humanity does not change course and amend their actions.  (Video clip of this encounter posted below).

The reference to telepathic communication by these witnesses is notable.  Projecting images into another being's consciousness would be an extremely effective way to communicate with / influence that being.  Human beings use image projection all the time to influence other humans: through television, photography, virtual reality, and even through written and spoken language.

Affecting another person's imagination, or you could say their inner mental model of reality, is also a very effective way of influencing that person's behavior.  Human beings remember sequences of images easier than abstract concepts, which is why most people naturally remember television shows and movies. 

It's also interesting that children were the chosen recipients of this message.  It seems the aliens were intent on creating a level of communication that would impact human behavior on a species level, i.e. transcend the individual experience and resonate with us collectively as a species. 

Inducing permanent species level change is no small task, especially when humanity is concerned.  First, think of all the ways that wouldn't work: landing their spaceship in Times Square would only induce terror and fighter jets.  Speaking to government leaders at the top of the power hierarchy would probably be useless and result in suppression of the message.  Even engaging with one particular nation directly would be very dangerous, since human beings are essentially territorial apes, and the perception of alien intervention in favor of one superpower might result in all out war (as was the premise of the movie "Arrival"). 

But children on a playground who will tell their story in an unbiased manner?  That might be enough to allow the information in the message to resonate over time in an uncorrupted way.

Possible reasons why children were chosen for the communication:

• Children are less likely to respond with physical violence
• Children more open/receptive to the communication (won't become terrified and run away)

Possible Long Term Effects of the Interaction

• The children will grow up and spread their message to others, information resonates over time
• If the interaction garners enough credibility, that is, the public believes this was a real encounter, the gravity of the event may be enough to induce species level change

 

 

 

 

Yes, certainly one of the more intriguing UFO/UAP  sightings/reportings. Plenty unexplained there.

[Alex_Krycek]

Interesting and balanced talk between Lex Fridman and Gary Nolan on this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTCc2-1tbBQ

Premiered February 7th, 2022

 

[dimreepr]

Very interesting +1, I'll watch the rest tomorrow and get back to you.

The rugby's about to start... 🤞