Alien origin thought experiment.

[swansont]

9 hours ago, TheVat said:

That seems off.  Average solar insolation is 1.36 kW/m^2.  And that's top of the atmosphere directly facing sun.  IIRC, at ground level it's more like one kW.  

Yes, it seems I had a spurious “kilo” in there. 250 W not 250 kW, but that was notation, not calculation

250 W *3600 sec/hr*10 hr is 9 Megajoules, so the result is correct

9 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

The maximum theoretical efficiency of photosynthesis is 26% and the actual utilization is less than that.  The average human has a surface area of a bit under 2 m^2 so that means the you would get less than 2 megajoules per day. 

I was conservative in my numbers, and the being in question wouldn’t be human. That was for context only - a roughly human-sized quadruped (to maximize area) that wasn’t warm-blooded should require less energy than a human.

Mammal metabolism scales roughly somewhere between M^0.67 and M^0.75, so the size limit might be somewhat smaller, but still decidedly in the macroscopic realm, and the demand goes down if they aren’t warm-blooded, or if they are, they regulate to a lower temperature.

 

9 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

You would also need thin translucent thin skin and spend most your time in the sunshine.  You would also have to find some method to obtain the nutrients that are necessary.  I still do not think a photosynthesizing large mobile animal makes sense.

Those are not energy-related objections. My point is simply that energy availability isn’t the restriction here.

[dimreepr]

12 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

It seems to me that there is not enough energy from sunlight to sustain a large mobile creature.  I base that on the fact that there has been life that is sustained by sunlight only for billions of years and yet there have never been (AFAIK) any photosynthesizing life larger than microscopic that was mobile. 

Perhaps, but the point I was making with said creature, is to illustrate the difficulty of first contact, trying to communicate with something we have absolutely nothing in common with.

Even if we shared a similar physiology, it's extremely unlikely we'd share anything relatable with which to base a common languge, with enough syntax to understand the difference between a friendly gesture and a mortal threat.

[TheVat]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hail_Mary

Details how communication could be established between species with very different languages.  The aliens use musical tones, and do not use vision to perceive their environment.  They create auditory "pictures" with extremely fine hearing.  Good read.

[Airbrush]

The Dark Forest theory:  "The only kind of alien civilizations out there are quiet ones or dead ones."

 

[dimreepr]

On 12/18/2021 at 7:22 PM, beecee said:

I'm certainly not the first to comment on your rather weird/cryptic posting manner

I can be obscure and I can be mysterious, mostly because I lack the training to be more articulate, but a clue is a clue, some people get it and some don't.

11 hours ago, Airbrush said:

The Dark Forest theory:  "The only kind of alien civilizations out there are quiet ones or dead ones."

How loud do you imagine we are?

AFAIK We're struggling to send a coherent message to voyager...

[swansont]

14 hours ago, Airbrush said:

The Dark Forest theory

Gosh, I wish I had linked to this last week.

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I can be obscure and I can be mysterious, mostly because I lack the training to be more articulate, but a clue is a clue, some people get it and some don't.

Why not just answer questions or aligning with the thread subject? Like this from page 1....

"I'm with an advanced civilisation from another planetary system.

Perhaps the "human resemblance" evolutionary process, is simply the most favoured to reach advanced intelligence and associated abilities. What I mean is that while an Octupus is obviously "intelligent" it is still confined somewhat by its evolutionary path.

I pick a civilisation from another planet simly because of the "near infinite" extent and content of our universe, and the stuff of life being everywhere we look."

(notice how it answers and follows the exact OP request/subject matter)

It seems to me that all you do is sit back and try and pick other ideas apart, without any real alternative. Like I said previously, I'm not here for you to practice your hairy fairy philosophy on...which I reject mostly anyway.

ps: I also dont believe that you are lack the training to be more articulate. In fact, if the truth was known, you have probably had more then I.

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by beecee

[Airbrush]

It seems to me, considering the very few earth-like planets we have found, it might be that intelligent, technological ETs are rare.  So if, or when, ETs ever stumbled upon us, it is most probable that they arrived here a long ago.  Perhaps they had plenty of time to figure out Earth languages.  We have stealth, they must have better stealth, so they can easily abduct people and take their cell phones and other technology, to be disassembled, analyzed, and thoroughly understood.  What is the likelihood that ETs, that can perform interstellar travel, that arrived here a long time ago, and had a long time to analyze our languages and read ALL our news, ALL our science, would they know more about Earth than we do, and know more about us than we know about ourselves?

They must be fascinated by us!  They don't need our resources.  They don't want to eat us.  They would like to monitor us.  They are sophisticated and think Earth is the best circus within a thousand light years.  Be proud to be an Earthling.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Airbrush

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Airbrush said:

It seems to me, considering the very few earth-like planets we have found, it might be that intelligent, technological ETs are rare. 

Most likely the case, sure, but even one or two advanced civilisations per galaxy and the numbers are well staggering. 

[swansont]

7 hours ago, Airbrush said:

considering the very few earth-like planets we have found

Have we found few because there are few, or because detecting them is difficult?

7 hours ago, Airbrush said:

They must be fascinated by us! 

Like all humans are fascinated by e.g. bugs? 

Or is it that a few of them would be fascinated by us, and the rest are just going about their duties.

7 hours ago, Airbrush said:

They don't need our resources. 

No? Where do they get their resources, then?

 

[dimreepr]

8 hours ago, Airbrush said:

What is the likelihood that ETs, that can perform interstellar travel, that arrived here a long time ago, and had a long time to analyze our languages and read ALL our news, ALL our science, would they know more about Earth than we do, and know more about us than we know about ourselves?

You can know everything about a mouse, but you can never understand what it is too be a mouse; if you want to talk to a mouse, and make sense, you must become a mouse.

The best way to learn French, is too live in France.

16 hours ago, beecee said:

It seems to me that all you do is sit back and try and pick other ideas apart, without any real alternative. Like I said previously, I'm not here for you to practice your hairy fairy philosophy on...which I reject mostly anyway.

I'm not picking ideas apart, I'm asking if the idea has merit, reasonably.

My only philosophy is too question (myself mostly), if that's hairy fairy... Then I'm guilty as charged and proud of it.

16 hours ago, beecee said:

I also dont believe that you are lack the training to be more articulate. In fact, if the truth was known, you have probably had more then I.

Perhaps, training is a life long process.

7 hours ago, beecee said:

Most likely the case, sure, but even one or two advanced civilisations per galaxy and the numbers are well staggering. 

So are the distances...

Edited December 21, 2021 by dimreepr

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I'm not picking ideas apart, I'm asking if the idea has merit, reasonably.

My only philosophy is too question (myself mostly), if that's hairy fairy... Then I'm guilty as charged and proud of it.

That's nice, and all well and good, but again you fail to comment on the gist of my post, which was...

23 hours ago, beecee said:

Why not just answer questions or aligning with the thread subject? Like this from page 1....

In other words answer the question or the gist of the OP. You know, like I showed you.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Perhaps, training is a life long process.

Training?? You of course mean learning, and that which I do everyday, without being so open minded that my brains fall out.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

So are the distances...

Yep, as I have said many times...the two great barriers are time and distance.

Edited December 21, 2021 by beecee

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, beecee said:

Yep, as I have said many times...the two great barriers are time and distance.

The third great barrier is language and understanding, I believe that's relevant to the topic.

16 hours ago, beecee said:

In other words answer the question or the gist of the OP. You know, like I showed you.

If you could lay off the condescension for just a minute or two and actually read what I've posted, you may learn something else.

[beecee]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The third great barrier is language and understanding, I believe that's relevant to the topic.

Language is not so much a barrier to contact, but creates difficulties in communicating. If we received some garbled signal from the depths of Europa, or Proxima Centauri b, I'm damn sure we would be sending a probe or signal back, (probably mathematical) there as quick as possible to investigate/contact.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

If you could lay off the condescension for just a minute or two and actually read what I've posted, you may learn something else.

 I actually find the hypocrisy in that as remarkable. The question in the OP is "Possible origins of the "aliens" in UFOs or UAPs"

• Another planetary system
• Another plan of existence 
• Another hidden (deep sea or underground would be possible examples) civilization.
• <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
• I gave my answer to that early in the piece...and repeated it for your benefit a day or so ago. Here it is again.......Try answering that and stop playing your silly philosophical  games.

  "I'm with an advanced civilisation from another planetary system.

  Perhaps the "human resemblance" evolutionary process, is simply the most favoured to reach advanced intelligence and associated abilities. What I mean is that while an Octupus is obviously "intelligent" it is still confined somewhat by its evolutionary path.

  I pick a civilisation from another planet simly because of the "near infinite" extent and content of our universe, and the stuff of life being everywhere we look."

  What is your choice? Why? 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by beecee

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, beecee said:

• Another planetary system
• Another plan of existence 
• Another hidden (deep sea or underground would be possible examples) civilization.
• <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
• I gave my answer to that early in the piece...and repeated it for your benefit a day or so ago. Here it is again.......Try answering that and stop playing your silly philosophical  games.

  "I'm with an advanced civilisation from another planetary system.

  Perhaps the "human resemblance" evolutionary process, is simply the most favoured to reach advanced intelligence and associated abilities. What I mean is that while an Octupus is obviously "intelligent" it is still confined somewhat by its evolutionary path.

  I pick a civilisation from another planet simly because of the "near infinite" extent and content of our universe, and the stuff of life being everywhere we look."

  What is your choice? Why? 

Now were back to my initial question, why are they hiding?

The option's given assume 'they' exist, any reasonable thought experiment must include:

They don't exist.

They can't comunicate with us.

They won't communicate with us.

16 hours ago, beecee said:

Try answering that and stop playing your silly philosophical  games.

Why are you so angry at my ideas?

They only threaten your understanding...

[swansont]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Now were back to my initial question, why are they hiding?

The option's given assume 'they' exist, any reasonable thought experiment must include:

They don't exist.

If you assume they exist, then “they don’t exist” can’t be part of the thought experiment.

[Airbrush]

On 12/21/2021 at 3:32 AM, swansont said:

Have we found few because there are few, or because detecting them is difficult?

Like all humans are fascinated by e.g. bugs? 

Or is it that a few of them would be fascinated by us, and the rest are just going about their duties.

No? Where do they get their resources, then?

 

Spoiler

 

1.  Have we found few because there are few, or because detecting them is difficult?

Last I heard 3/4 of local stars are red dwarfs that have mega flares and their habitable zone is so close to the red dwarf that they would be tidally locked.  Super-Earths are very common, could a super-earth around a red dwarf support intelligent ETs?  I just read an article that said mega flares from red dwarfs blast out closer to the poles of the red dwarf than from the equator, which would less of a threat to life on tidally-locked super-earths.

https://earthsky.org/space/red-dwarf-stars-superflares-red-dwarf-planets-habitability/#:~:text=Bottom line%3A Planets orbiting red dwarf stars could,on fully convective stars occur at high latitudes

2.  Like all humans are fascinated by e.g. bugs?   Or is it that a few of them would be fascinated by us, and the rest are just going about their duties.

If intelligent, technological life is VERY rare, we would be very interesting to any other that had the ability to travel here.

3.  No? Where do they get their resources, then?

They can get their resources from the Kuiper belt and asteroid belt much easier than from Earth.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Airbrush

[mistermack]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Now were back to my initial question, why are they hiding?

I would guess that it's a combination of two things. Firstly, that humans are a freakish development, and that intelligent life that has comparable technology is very very unlikely.

If you accept that humans are a one in a million freak, then look at what the Earth would be like without us. Chimps and Bonobos would be top of the technology tree. Dolphins and Orcas might match them for intelligence. And that would be it on Earth. 

Human numbers at one point dropped to the low thousands, it would easily have happened that we went extinct. So but for one freakish species, even this Earth would have been totally unable to communicate with other worlds.

It's entirely possible that life would never again produce intelligence on the human scale. It might just hit a ceiling time after time, and we are total freaks.

The other factor is the huge distances involved in trying to communicate. If there are technologies out there in the Milky Way, they are probably far too distant to ever be able to get a signal through. 

After all, we are only just now able to detect a shadow on a star, caused by a planet, at these distances. No imaginable technology could match the scale of that type of signal. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Airbrush said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1.  Have we found few because there are few, or because detecting them is difficult?

Last I heard 3/4 of local stars are red dwarfs that have mega flares and their habitable zone is so close to the red dwarf that they would be tidally locked.  Super-Earths are very common, could a super-earth around a red dwarf support intelligent ETs?  I just read an article that said mega flares from red dwarfs blast out closer to the poles of the red dwarf than from the equator, which would less of a threat to life on tidally-locked super-earths.

https://earthsky.org/space/red-dwarf-stars-superflares-red-dwarf-planets-habitability/#:~:text=Bottom line%3A Planets orbiting red dwarf stars could,on fully convective stars occur at high latitudes

Super-earths are not the same as earth-like

1 hour ago, Airbrush said:

2.  Like all humans are fascinated by e.g. bugs?   Or is it that a few of them would be fascinated by us, and the rest are just going about their duties.

If intelligent, technological life is VERY rare, we would be very interesting to any other that had the ability to travel here.

3.  No? Where do they get their resources, then?

They can get their resources from the Kuiper belt and asteroid belt much easier than from Earth.

So they would be visiting the solar system, and we would be able to detect them if they weren’t hiding.

 

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Now were back to my initial question, why are they hiding?

IMO probably because they (UAP's and UFO's) are not Alien craft.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The option's given assume 'they' exist, any reasonable thought experiment must include:

They don't exist.

They can't comunicate with us.

They won't communicate with us.

(1) You either assume they (Alien visitations) exist or that they don't exist.

(2) If they are undertaking inter stellar travel, it's reasonable to assume they are advanced beings, and would at least try, most probably via mathematics.

(3) The next question would be why?

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why are you so angry at my ideas?

You still havn't answered the OP question.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

They only threaten your understanding...

My understanding for what its worth, is there for all to see. Why are you so reluctant to answering the OP question?

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, swansont said:

If you assume they exist, then “they don’t exist” can’t be part of the thought experiment.

Fair enough, but communication can, I assume...

16 hours ago, beecee said:

My understanding for what its worth, is there for all to see.

But few to understand... 

[beecee]

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

But few to understand... 

Or the one. Again, answer the question, or do you see that reasonable request as condescending also? 

[dimreepr]

19 minutes ago, beecee said:

Or the one. Again, answer the question, or do you see that reasonable request as condescending also? 

I thought I had with help from swansont; but if you know better, feel free... 

Edited December 24, 2021 by dimreepr

[Airbrush]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:34 AM, dimreepr said:

Now were back to my initial question, why are they hiding?

Like any wildlife photographer, you hide from your subject, so you don't mess up your observations.

My theory is that they are so omniscient, (IF they are here) that they know the current state of our technology, so they can avoid being "too captured" by it.  By that I mean the best evidence the Nimitz pilots could capture looks stupid.  They have lots of video of small blurry objects traveling in a straight line at constant speed.  Why not the physics-defying maneuvers?  The aliens know that poor evidence will convince few enough people, so they can continue business as usual, unhampered by humans. 🙂

Edited December 24, 2021 by Airbrush

[beecee]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

I thought I had with help from swansont; but if you know better, feel free... 

Hmmm, let's remind you again.....

Alien Origin thought experiment:

Possible alien origins

• Another planetary system
   
   
• Another plan of existence
   
   
• Another hidden (deep sea or underground would be possible examples) civilization.
• :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

On 6/17/2021 at 12:42 PM, Moontanman said:

Just as a thought experiment lets say that on June 25th the Pentagon confirms that UAPs or UFOs are indeed crafts of some sort from another place driven by the little grey guys so often described as being their pilots. I am going to add a poll for the four possibilities that cover what is being reported by people who see and or interact with the crafts. 

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by beecee