What is Nothing? (split from If I move a box with nothing in it, does the nothing move with it?)

[Conscious Energy]

23 hours ago, swansont said:

I think you need to ignore physics, because if you account for it, the concept of “nothing” goes away.

t=time

s=space

e=energy

m=mass

Strangely the concept of nothing came to me when I started to account with physics, which had been pointing to (if it can be true), that the Universe started at s0t0. 

If (s) and (t) is zero than (e) and (m) must be zero as well since the laws of nature must apply on every entity in the system. Or expressing it differently: energy and matter can not exist without space and time. 
 

So the starting state of the Universe supposed to be (s0t0e0m0) even we can not directly examine that space time moment.
 

In one hypothesis:

“The null hypothesis is that nothing, zero is a physical reality based mathematical conception which we can perceive as an energy, matter, information, space, time free state. Revealing as our common physical, mathematical, philosophical origin, a physical reality based mathematical reference point. I state that in proportion to this physical reality based sense(conception) everything has some kind of mathematically expressible value. Space, time, information, energy, matter. 

The hypothesis is based on the fact that space expands and time evolves which points that our current moment is bigger and older than the moment before. Following this path backwards on the timeline of the physical reality we arrive at the lowest possible physical state, which I perceive as a space(time), energy, matter, information free state. 0. In proportion to this state everything has value. Everything has mathematically expressible value. Space, time, energy, matter and information. “
 

Imagine the first phase of the universe is the 4D evolution of empty space(time) without any energy and matter. This would mean that no one ever could physically examine that moments of space(time) but it could be mathematically countable.

 

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Moved to speculations, where you can explain your hypothesis

 

[MigL]

"Nothing" is a made up word that doesn't describe anything.

[Conscious Energy]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

"Nothing" is a made up word that doesn't describe anything.

 

Every word is made up by humans, 

The word Nothing describe the lack of something.
 

wiki: 

Nothing", used as a pronoun subject, is the absence of a something or particular thing that one might expect or desire to be present ("We found nothing", "Nothing was there") or the inactivity of a thing or things that are usually or could be active ("Nothing moved", "Nothing happened"). As a predicate or complement "nothing" is the absence of meaning, value, worth, relevance, standing, or significance

Note that even we perceive the absolute lack of something, the perception will be recognised in the local part of space(time).

Space(time) still will be a thing, it is physically unrecognisable and mathematically expressable. 0. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Conscious Energy

[KittyBeRich]

There isn't nothing. Inside of an atmosphere, there is air where we think of nothing. On a atomic level there are (Sometimes) virtual particles when we think of nothing. And in spacetime... there isn't mass (Or space) but time is there.

 

Basically, no thing is nothing

Sorry for starting a philosophy/physics debate... they tend to go nowhere.

Edited June 28, 2021 by KittyBeRich
I forgot something

[iNow]

31 minutes ago, KittyBeRich said:

Sorry for starting a philosophy/physics debate... they tend to go nowhere.

Don't worry. It's nothing

[Kartazion]

27 minutes ago, KittyBeRich said:

There isn't nothing. Inside of an atmosphere, there is air where we think of nothing.

Inside the atmosphere there are atoms and molecules. The definition of nothing is not focused on invisible matter such as gas or air.
 

28 minutes ago, KittyBeRich said:

On a atomic level there are (Sometimes) virtual particles when we think of nothing. 

A virtual particle is a transient quantum fluctuation. It's something for sure and not a lottery.
 

31 minutes ago, KittyBeRich said:

And in spacetime... there isn't mass (Or space) but time is there.

These are something. The definition of nothing relates to the absolute nothing. Not even the quantum vacuum because of its fulctuations.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, Kartazion said:

The definition of nothing is not focused on invisible matter such as gas or air.

Why not? Are those not things?

[MigL]

10 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Every word is made up by humans, 
The word Nothing describe the lack of something.

It's right in its name ...
The word 'nothing' doesn't describe what can be called a 'thing'.

Hence , the word 'nothing' doesn't describe any 'thing'.

Tossing out dictionary definitions simply prove subtleties are lost on you.

[Kartazion]

2 hours ago, KittyBeRich said:

There isn't nothing. Inside of an atmosphere, there is air where we think of nothing.

In a more poetic sense it's not bad.

[joigus]

Thinking about nothing is good for nothing.

Think nothing of it.

[swansont]

42 minutes ago, joigus said:

Thinking about nothing is good for nothing.

Think nothing of it.

"I know nothing"

    — Sgt Schultz

 

[Conscious Energy]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

Thinking about nothing is good for nothing.

Think nothing of it.

For some thinking about nothing is good for nothing.

For some the sense of Nothing is the saint grail of informatics, the starting state of Reality, the information what every point of space(time) minimum maintains, the first natural number.

Very interesting differences!

Edited June 28, 2021 by Conscious Energy

[MigL]

13 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

The word Nothing describe the lack of something.

If you take the 'lack of something' away, what are you left with ?

That's right ... nothing.
So how can the two be equivaent ?

 

[Conscious Energy]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

If you take the 'lack of something' away, what are you left with ?

The space(time) moment of the realisation: there is nothing (not a thing)

1 hour ago, MigL said:

That's right ... nothing.
So how can the two be equivaent ?

Space(time) isn’t a physical thing. You can not hand a bucket of it over.

If space(time) is Not a Thing, then it is Nothing.

Which natural number expresses the lack of everything I.e there is not a thing?

In my perception that natural number is: 0

Edited June 28, 2021 by Conscious Energy

[joigus]

3 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

For some Nothing is the saint grail of informatics, the starting phase of Reality, the information what every point of space(time) maintains, the first natural number.

"Nothing" is not a good semantic placeholder. Example:

1) Nothing is real (Nothingness is possible)

2) Nothing is real (no thing is real)

(Completely different meanings)

You have to mind your every step if you don't wanna fall into the use-mention fallacy. and other linguistic pitfalls.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

"I know nothing"

    — Sgt Schultz

 

I didn't know this one. Even though I love American comedy. The nineties is my all-time favourite period. Especially:

 

"This is the show, and we're not gonna change it."

"Nothing happens on the show"

--George Costanza

[swansont]

4 minutes ago, joigus said:

I didn't know this one. Even though I love American comedy. The nineties is my all-time favourite period.

Hogan's Heroes is (mostly) 60s

[Phi for All]

41 minutes ago, swansont said:

Hogan's Heroes is (mostly) 60s

I really want a T-shirt that says, "I see nothing! I was not here! I did not even get UP this morning!"

[MigL]

1 hour ago, Conscious Energy said:

If space(time) is Not a Thing, then it is Nothing.

Space-time is a co-ordinate system.
I would say that is something.

1 hour ago, joigus said:

Even though I love American comedy. The nineties is my all-time favourite period.

I'm sorry you missed 'WKRP in Cincinnati', Joigus.

[Conscious Energy]

28 minutes ago, MigL said:

Space-time is a co-ordinate system.
I would say that is something.

True.

It is at least information. 

Can we count Information as a physical entity?

Edited June 28, 2021 by Conscious Energy

[studiot]

On 6/27/2021 at 8:55 AM, Conscious Energy said:

t=time

s=space

e=energy

m=mass

Strangely the concept of nothing came to me when I started to account with physics, which had been pointing to (if it can be true), that the Universe started at s0t0. 

If (s) and (t) is zero than (e) and (m) must be zero as well since the laws of nature must apply on every entity in the system. Or expressing it differently: energy and matter can not exist without space and time. 
 

So the starting state of the Universe supposed to be (s0t0e0m0) even we can not directly examine that space time moment.
 

In one hypothesis:

“The null hypothesis is that nothing, zero is a physical reality based mathematical conception which we can perceive as an energy, matter, information, space, time free state. Revealing as our common physical, mathematical, philosophical origin, a physical reality based mathematical reference point. I state that in proportion to this physical reality based sense(conception) everything has some kind of mathematically expressible value. Space, time, information, energy, matter. 

The hypothesis is based on the fact that space expands and time evolves which points that our current moment is bigger and older than the moment before. Following this path backwards on the timeline of the physical reality we arrive at the lowest possible physical state, which I perceive as a space(time), energy, matter, information free state. 0. In proportion to this state everything has value. Everything has mathematically expressible value. Space, time, energy, matter and information. “
 

Imagine the first phase of the universe is the 4D evolution of empty space(time) without any energy and matter. This would mean that no one ever could physically examine that moments of space(time) but it could be mathematically countable.

 

I understand the moderators offered you the chance to clarify your thinking and expression when they started this thread on your behalf.

As far as I can see, all that you have done is made it mode convoluted and confusing than before.

 

'Nothing' is very simple and can be quantified. No only can be but is every day by motor mechanics the world over.

Edited June 28, 2021 by studiot

[joigus]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

I'm sorry you missed 'WKRP in Cincinnati', Joigus.

Duly noted.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Conscious Energy said:

True.

It is at least information. 

Can we count Information as a physical entity?

No. Unless you can hand me a cup of information.

[Conscious Energy]

5 hours ago, swansont said:

No. Unless you can hand me a cup of information.

So can we say that it is nothing?

 

7 hours ago, studiot said:

No. Unless you can hand me a cup of information.

I thought my Op is clear. Could point please out which part of it you have difficulties to perceive and I will try to further clarify.

7 hours ago, studiot said:

'Nothing' is very simple and can be quantified. No only can be but is every day by motor mechanics the world over.

Could you help me with some examples from motor mechanics and how nothing quantified very simply in this area of science?

Edited June 29, 2021 by Conscious Energy

[swansont]

6 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

So can we say that it is nothing?

No, it's information