dimreepr Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 5 hours ago, joigus said: Highly advanced civilization, huh? That, no doubt, can only mean: Healthcare for everyone Education for everyone Opportunities for everyone Rational management of their planet's resources Not alienating those who are different (pun intended) An emphasis on prevention and correction of misbehaviour, rather than punishment I see no problem. Even monotheists and politicians would want to jump onboard once they see how it works. Indeed, but it's been suggested several time's in our history, mostly by religion's; I often wonder when/if we're going to learn...
joigus Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: Indeed, but it's been suggested several time's in our history, mostly by religion's; I often wonder when/if we're going to learn... I don't think civilization ever advances as a result of religious principles being applied. The iconic fantasy of an advanced civilization visiting us is very much a literary mechanism to evidence our own imperfections. But I don't think that any actual intelligent alien species that we may find some day will respond to any of our utopian dreams. Most likely --if that ever happens--, they will be looking for resources. 1
Butch Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, joigus said: I don't think civilization ever advances as a result of religious principles being applied. The iconic fantasy of an advanced civilization visiting us is very much a literary mechanism to evidence our own imperfections. But I don't think that any actual intelligent alien species that we may find some day will respond to any of our utopian dreams. Most likely --if that ever happens--, they will be looking for resources. I must disagree, religion was(is?) a way of controlling the masses, focusing the people on common goals, not only advancing civilization, but perhaps even making civilization a possibility.
Prometheus Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, joigus said: they will be looking for resources What resources could Earth have that would have them bypass every other celestial body between them and us? It would have to be something biological that this ultra advanced species can't otherwise synthesise. Some form of curiosity seems more likely than this to me (including the curiosity of a cat to a mouse).
Butch Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Prometheus said: What resources could Earth have that would have them bypass every other celestial body between them and us? It would have to be something biological that this ultra advanced species can't otherwise synthesise. Some form of curiosity seems more likely than this to me (including the curiosity of a cat to a mouse). The resource, they would be looking for is square footage... does not bode well for the natives.
Prometheus Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 Just now, Butch said: The resource, they would be looking for is square footage... does not bode well for the natives. I guess the Earth might suit their biology just by chance and their own star is dying so they are looking for a new home. But even then there are plenty of other options that would be open to a species with that level of tech - terraforming another planet, bio-engineering themselves to another habitat, taking to artificial habitats etc. Just from an efficiency perspective these other options seem more viable.
joigus Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, Prometheus said: What resources could Earth have that would have them bypass every other celestial body between them and us? It would have to be something biological that this ultra advanced species can't otherwise synthesise. Some form of curiosity seems more likely than this to me (including the curiosity of a cat to a mouse). One I can think of is getting hold of a vast library of nucleic acids and proteins. Biology is also a resource. Also, vast reservoirs of methane in oceanic bottoms, molecular oxygen, which is rare in the universe. Or simply ground to settle. Tidal and volcanic energy that maybe they --but not us-- can wield. Who knows. If you look back at the history of human exploration, the driving force was the acquisition of resources. Adding to knowledge for its own sake was kind of an afterthought.
Butch Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, joigus said: One I can think of is getting hold of a vast library of nucleic acids and proteins. Biology is also a resource. Also, vast reservoirs of methane in oceanic bottoms, molecular oxygen, which is rare in the universe. Or simply ground to settle. Tidal and volcanic energy that maybe they --but not us-- can wield. Who knows. If you look back at the history of human exploration, the driving force was the acquisition of resources. Adding to knowledge for its own sake was kind of an afterthought. Let us not forget escaping disease, corrupt governance and persecution. Also, as on our planet, no place left to run. Edited July 13, 2021 by Butch
joigus Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 18 minutes ago, Butch said: I must disagree, religion was(is?) a way of controlling the masses, focusing the people on common goals, not only advancing civilization, but perhaps even making civilization a possibility. I think religion came about from a deep instinct in humans to manage the land by trying to understand it in faltering steps and ill-conceived guesswork. But religion has a life of its own, and further evolves from that first drive into self-perpetuating structures that no longer have to do with their first raison d'être. Perhaps it played a role in the origins of civilization. But it no longer does.
dimreepr Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 25 minutes ago, joigus said: I don't think civilization ever advances as a result of religious principles being applied. The iconic fantasy of an advanced civilization visiting us is very much a literary mechanism to evidence our own imperfections. But I don't think that any actual intelligent alien species that we may find some day will respond to any of our utopian dreams. Most likely --if that ever happens--, they will be looking for resources. When are we going to step into our utopian uplands?
Butch Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, joigus said: I think religion came about from a deep instinct in humans to manage the land by trying to understand it in faltering steps and ill-conceived guesswork. But religion has a life of its own, and further evolves from that first drive into self-perpetuating structures that no longer have to do with their first raison d'être. Perhaps it played a role in the origins of civilization. But it no longer does. Tell that to the Pope, or the Taliban. Religion, so good at getting us off topic. Edited July 13, 2021 by Butch 2
joigus Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 18 minutes ago, Butch said: Religion, so good at getting us off topic. Agreed.
studiot Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, Butch said: Religion, so good at getting us off topic. Definitely a +1 quote
zapatos Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 19 minutes ago, dimreepr said: I wonder, what is the topic... If highly advanced civilization were found to exist other than the solar system what would its effect be on humanity? 1
TheVat Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 On 7/12/2021 at 8:43 AM, zapatos said: I imagine it would bring people together to some extent. We tend to group ourselves based on similarity, which means humanity is quite fractured. By country, race, politics, or which end of a soft boiled egg should be cracked open prior to consuming. If others were found to exist, suddenly we have a new group to belong to; Earthlings! A soft boiled egg must be cracked along its middle! Die, heretic! (which is my way of saying you're quite the optimist.) I think nations would immediately and feverishly set about forming special alliances with the ETs in hopes of gaining favored status and leverage to edge their rivals out of ET trade agreements. 18 hours ago, Peterkin said: But since the technological discrepancy here is greater, and the alien species doesn't share our predatory past, I was assuming that, if they were not benevolent, they wouldn't bother to make contact: they'd just take what they wanted and ignore us, unless we got in their way. Even if they were merely curious, they could study the planet without necessarily talking to the inhabitants, maybe even without us ever being aware of them. (Although, in Star Trek, the well-meaning humans studying less advanced species are so clumsy that they're accidentally discovered by some native and have to do damage control. That's the kind of situation I envision as most likely. Unless the template for first contact is more like Childhood's End or The Day the Earth Stood Still or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy . It could go any number of different ways. I really hope they are not like the Vogons and planning to demolish us to built a hyperspace expressway. Or bad poets. I could envision a truly benevolent race studiously avoiding contact, on the premise that any contact with a vastly more advanced species would hinder our creativity and social development. And possibly lead to societal breakdowns as Terran cultural norms were upended.
zapatos Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 58 minutes ago, TheVat said: A soft boiled egg must be cracked along its middle! Die, heretic! 😁 “…the Emperors of Blefuscu did frequently expostulate by their ambassadors, accusing us of making a Schism in Religion, by offending against a fundamental Doctrine of our great Prophet Lustrog, in the fifty-fourth Chapter of the Brundecal, (which is their Alcoran). This, however, is thought to be a meer[sic] Strain upon the Text: For the Words are these; That all true believes shall break their Eggs at the convenient End; and which is the convenient End, seems, in my humble Opinion, to be left to every Man’s Conscience, or at least in the Power of the chief Magistrate to determine.” -Gulliver 1
Peterkin Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: Indeed, but it's been suggested several time's in our history, mostly by religion's; I often wonder when/if we're going to learn... What religion has ever suggested equal sharing or sensible resource management? Some prophets propose kindness, co-operation and tolerance, but they're quickly martyred (and any sincere adherents, eliminated) and that's the only way organized religion wants them. Organized religion is as attached to its hierarchy of power and privilege as any other patriarchal system. If we haven't learned by now, it's unlikely.
MigL Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 I really think the OP should be changed to read If highly advanced civilization were found to exist other than the solar system what would its effect be on sane humans ? as there will be vast differences in the way the aliens are perceived; from predators looking for food, to deities. Most sane people ( myself being the standard 😄 ) would see it as an opportunity to learn, grow and come together as a race. In the original Watchmen graphic novel ( not the movie, it was changed ) it was an alien that brought all of Earth's nations together as one. Same with Independence Day, and The Tomorrow War also uses that plot device. I pesonally, don't think aliens would be stupid enough to waste the unmeasurable resources that interstellar travel would require, just to get some from our puny planet ( methane has been mentioned, how much is present on Jupiter ? ). Nor can I see them coming here for cheap meat ( apparently we taste like chicken ). They might, however, come here for sport, as in hunting expeditions, to hunt semi-intelligent prey ( us ), and, treat Earth as a hunting reserve ( ie not for invasion ) in which case they would tend to not reveal themselves ( see Predator, the original, with Arnold ).
zapatos Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 29 minutes ago, Peterkin said: What religion has ever suggested equal sharing or sensible resource management? Catholicism https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/environment/environmental-justice-program/upload/Environmental-Primer.pdf Some statements made over the years... “Created things belong not to the few, but to the entire human family.” “The Church is likewise conscious of the responsibility which all of us have for our world, for the whole of creation, which we must love and protect. There is much that we can do to benefit the poor, the needy and those who suffer, and to favor justice, promote reconciliation and build peace.” “Our mistreatment of the natural world diminishes our own dignity and sacred- ness, not only because we are destroying resources that future generations of hu- mans need, but because we are engaging in actions that contradict what it means to be human. Our tradition calls us to protect the life and dignity of the human person, and it is increasingly clear that this task cannot be separated from the care and de- fense of all creation.” “[T]his concern and commitment for the environment should be situat- ed within the larger framework of the great challenges now facing man- kind. If we wish to build true peace, how can we separate, or even set at odds, the protection of the environment and the protection of human life, including the life of the unborn? It is in man’s respect for himself that his sense of responsibility for creation is shown.” “How can we forget, for that matter the struggle for access to natural resources is one of the causes of a number of conflicts, not the least in Africa, as well as a continuing threat elsewhere? For this reason too, I forcefully repeat that to cultivate peace, one must protect creation!” “The protection of the environment, of resources and of the climate obliges all international leaders to act justly and to show a readiness to work in good faith, respecting the law and promoting solidarity with the weakest regions of the planet.” “Care for the environment represents a challenge for all of hu- manity. It is a matter of a common and universal duty, that of respecting a common good, destined for all, by preventing any- one from using ‘with impunity the different categories of beings, whether living or inanimate—animals, plants, the natural ele- ments—simply as one wishes, according to one’s own economic needs.’ It is a responsibility that must mature on the basis of the global dimension of the present ecological crisis and the conse- quent necessity to meet it on a worldwide level, since all beings are interdependent in the universal order established by the Crea- tor. ‘One must take into account the nature of each being and of its mutual connection in an ordered system, which is precisely the ‘cosmos’”. And Islam... Muslims are allowed to make use of what nature provides but they must avoid waste and excess. Shari'ah law protects animals from cruelty, defends forests and limits urbanisation. Muslim leaders, representing all the major groups of Muslims, drew up a Seven Year Plan in 2009. The aim was to improve the environment. Actions include limiting the use of new resources, encouraging recycling, and developing guidance for business on how best to protect the environment from exploitation. By helping people to focus on God and not on distorted values linked with money and possessions, Muslims hope to re-establish harmony in the world between people and with nature. Sunni Muslims have created haram zones where people have to respect natural resources and not exploit anything that is there. They have also created animal reserves to protect wildlife and forests. These actions aim to re-stabilish nature as Allah wants it to be. https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zvygjxs/revision/4
Peterkin Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 As of when? I would sincerely like to know. In my youth when I hung out with Catholics, I don't recall them being taught this doctrine. Certainly, it's not been their a historical stance. I would also like to know what steps the Church as an organization has taken to bring about universal health care, save rain forests or mitigate income disparity. If it does, it could be quite effective, even in influencing governments.
zapatos Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) Two goalposts moved and not a hint of recognition that your assertion may have been a bit over the top. Or was it one goalpost and one read herring. Sometimes I'm not sure. Thank you but I don't think I'm going to chase you around this field. 10 minutes ago, Peterkin said: Certainly, it's not been their a historical stance. Given your track record on knowing what is going on in the church I think I'm going to take this with a grain of salt. Edited July 13, 2021 by zapatos
Butch Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 24 minutes ago, Peterkin said: As of when? I would sincerely like to know. In my youth when I hung out with Catholics, I don't recall them being taught this doctrine. Certainly, it's not been their a historical stance. I would also like to know what steps the Church as an organization has taken to bring about universal health care, save rain forests or mitigate income disparity. If it does, it could be quite effective, even in influencing governments. When I was a youngster, mass was in Latin and the nuns at school, beat the crap out of students. But again, the topic is not religion!
Peterkin Posted July 14, 2021 Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) It's part of the topic, at least tangentially. I've done a bit of reading since my last post, and found that, indeed, the Catholic church - at least three popes and several hundred bishops, have taken a principled stand on environmental and social justice issues, from about 1970 to the present. I don't see any change in the societies being addressed, but you never know: pockets of religious activism have been known to cause ructions in large populations. https://networkadvocates.org/advocacytoolbox/educate/catholicsocialjustice/ https://www.churchofengland.org/about/policy-and-thinking/our-views/ending-global-poverty-and-injustice How would these same prelates react to an alien intelligence implementing the policies they themselves profess, and affect the reforms they have not been able to bring about? Would they immediately form an alliance with the aliens and one another, to overcome the resistance of money and power? It would be very interesting to know. Edited July 14, 2021 by Peterkin to add reference links
beecee Posted July 14, 2021 Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Butch said: When I was a youngster, mass was in Latin and the nuns at school, beat the crap out of students. But again, the topic is not religion! I often copped six of the best with a 1 inch square, 18 inch long leather strap! And I was also an Altar boy at Sunday mass and needed to answer the priest in latin. eg priest: "dominis vobiscum" Me: "Et cum spirito tuo" First and only job I have ever been sacked from after found drinking the Altar wine behind the altar! 😁 Getting back on subject, If I was confronted by any Alien, I would simply utter those age old words, "take me to your leader" Edited July 14, 2021 by beecee
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