What aspects of human society unites us?

[beecee]

2 hours ago, joigus said:

I would like to take the opportunity to welcome you and @Peterkin to the forums. Both of you are very welcome 'acquisitions'.

This is one of those topics in which I don't have a very strong opinion, but yes. Focus on the show-business part without any emphasis on sport for everyone, is kind of the obvious 'dark side' of sports.

I too welcome both, and hope my strong opinion on sport and my arguments against the negative side, [particularly with Peterkin], was reasonably fair and equitably put and not too...cut throat, shall we say? Thanks for that Peterkin. 

2 hours ago, joigus said:

And I love Australia, by the way. I have Waltzing Matilda committed to memory.

Commit this version to memory matey! ☺️

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

I have Waltzing Matilda committed to memory.

What about "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"? Oddly enough, I also know more of Matilda than Fitzgerald.

Thanks for the welcome. It seems like a nice port to get washed up in. More technologically advanced than I'm used to.

As to sport, it has much to contribute to the health, and perhaps even the cohesion of a society. IMO, music does it better, for being more accessible on a visceral level. For example, my SO, who emigrated from Europe in adulthood, doesn't 'get' hockey or baseball.

26 minutes ago, beecee said:

Commit this version to memory matey!

Uh....? But, on a visceral level, I can connect with it!

[beecee]

8 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

 IMO, music does it better, for being more accessible on a visceral level.

My sport, my music, and my VB! My times for complete relaxation, is putting on a cd/blue ray of some of my favourite music [probably Nana Mouskouri, but that is entirely subjective] ...a  very important part of my life. 

[Peterkin]

I have no statistics on this, but I suspect Nana Mouskouri has brought together more disparate people (like you and me) than Beauden Barrett.

[beecee]

11 hours ago, joigus said:

Interesting related point in interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/24/tokyo-olympic-sport-displacing-athletes

David Goldblatt

IOW: I'd rather see more people cycling to work than eating cheetos in front of the TV while they watch the Tour de France.

Reasonable comment, personally, I do my brisk walk early mornings, before assuming the couch potato position!

With regards to the interesting article, some valid points are made, some are also superficial. With regards to the following from your article.....

" Self-selected for the entirety of its history, the IOC appoints no independents, tolerates no critical voices and is completely opaque in its operations. The idea that such an organisation should have special status at the UN and claim sovereignty over the global governance of sport is untenable.

Sport does offer an extraordinary canvas for the celebration of human possibilities. It is a universal language in a perilously fragmented world. It deserves better than to be captured by the IOC, better than to be drowned in its pieties and bound to its pernicious business model."

I fully support the highlighted part, but do not believe that "sport" per se is "captured by the IOC, it is simply one aspect, albeit being far the largest. The IOC certainly as per the article, needs reform, but sport in general will survive...football, cricket, golf, gymnastics, weight lifting, snooker, darts, swimming will all prevail, as will those not mentioned. We also have world titles in many sports, and international rivalry and competition, such  as exists between Australia and New Zealand, and Australia and England.

While the IOC needs reform, and while other undesired aspects of sport exist, my focus, if I was in a position to focus, would be on world wide demilitarisation and elimination of all nuclear weapons. 

Clean up the IOC, clean up all the other undesired aspects of sport certainly, but accept the fact that sport is universal and a celebration of all that is good, to quote that article.

On other aspects of the Olympic games, the entrance of all the nations at the opening ceromony, participating, has me personally more in admiration of the fart arse little countires and municipalities, with only a handfull, literally of participants, and the other tiny Pacific Island nations that lack the professional, scientific research abilities and equipement, to facilitate top performances from its athletes, that nations like the US, UK, Germany, Australia, and others have. They still send teams while obviously little or no hope of medals, just the glory and chance to participate.

Probably I am biased to some extent, that being having played plenty of sport [and still do] and the fact that my nation prides itself on sporting competition, probably more then most.

 

[Peterkin]

Why the big letters?

22 minutes ago, beecee said:

While the IOC needs reform, and while other undesired aspects of sport exist, my focus, if I was in a position to focus, would be on world wide demilitarisation and elimination of all nuclear weapons. 

Sure, me too. But how is this relevant to international sporting competition bringing people together?  Has any government ever taken the warhead off a single missile because they were so moved by an olympic victory?

[beecee]

9 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Why the big letters?

Not meant to be...just a peculiarity and a probable error by me in not clicking that "display as a link" bar at the bottom.

13 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Sure, me too. But how is this relevant to international sporting competition bringing people together?  Has any government ever taken the warhead off a single missile because they were so moved by an olympic victory?

 Of course not! but your position seems to be bordering on that sport does more harm then good. On that I strongly disagree, for the reasons stated.  Joigus'article raises some valid points about the IOC, but sport is far more then the IOC and some of its misgivings. 

 

[beecee]

"Sport is an international phenomenon, like science or music".

— Avery Brundage:

“Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire. It has the power to unite people in a way that little else does. It speaks to youth in a language they understand. Sport can create hope where once there was only despair. It is more powerful than government in breaking down racial barriers.”.
– Nelson Mandela

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, beecee said:

your position seems to be bordering on that sport does more harm then good.

That is NOT my position.

My position is that sport is wonderful (I've said so) that sport is a good way to deflect aggression into harmless competition (I said so in my first response) that sport is a healthy outlet for frustration, a great way to build strength, stamina and co-ordination. Sport, particularly team sport, is good training for children to learn rules, co-operation, self-control and how to cope with disappointment. It's a primitive but reliable assessment of adolescent males for their status in a masculine hierarchy (if you must have those) and an even better means of bolstering the confidence of adolescent females. It's also fun, both to participate in and to watch. A home team inspires loyalty and pride of community. I may have left some stuff out, but the main theme here is that sport is wonderful (I've said that already).

 What's bad is commercializing it, turning it into a spectacle, exploiting athletes and driving them to self-destructive behaviours in pursuit of winning, isolating them, wrecking their childhood and social life, idolizing them and commodifying them at the same time.  What's wrong is turning a joyful leisure activity that everyone should enjoy into a profession and a business. That's wrong. 

[beecee]

20 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That is NOT my position.

My position is that sport is wonderful (I've said so) that sport is a good way to deflect aggression into harmless competition (I said so in my first response) that sport is a healthy outlet for frustration, a great way to build strength, stamina and co-ordination. Sport, particularly team sport, is good training for children to learn rules, co-operation, self-control and how to cope with disappointment. It's a primitive but reliable assessment of adolescent males for their status in a masculine hierarchy (if you must have those) and an even better means of bolstering the confidence of adolescent females. It's also fun, both to participate in and to watch. A home team inspires loyalty and pride of community. I may have left some stuff out, but the main theme here is that sport is wonderful (I've said that already).

That's great, we are on the same page then.

20 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

 What's bad is commercializing it, turning it into a spectacle, exploiting athletes and driving them to self-destructive behaviours in pursuit of winning, isolating them, wrecking their childhood and social life, idolizing them and commodifying them at the same time. 

I believe I have agreed with that also.

20 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

What's wrong is turning a joyful leisure activity that everyone should enjoy into a profession and a business. That's wrong. 

Nothing wrong with professionalism per se. But again when it develops into shams and scams like world championship wrestling, its undesirable. I've said so.

Personally though, I believe all that is good about sport [just as you have listed] far outweighs what is wrong. The same applies to music and science.

Edited July 30, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

Nothing wrong with professionalism per se.

Yes, there is. Play is play; work is work. If you play for pay, it turns into work. 

5 minutes ago, beecee said:

I believe all that is good about sport [just as you have listed] far outweighs what is wrong.

That's a legitimate perspective. but it doesn't get any closer to your opening claim about uniting "us". Mandela's opinion notwithstanding. Actually, the least enjoyable FIFA world cup was 2010: vuvuzelas are worse than bagpipes! 

[beecee]

21 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Yes, there is. Play is play; work is work. If you play for pay, it turns into work. 

Your entitled to that view point. I strongly disagree. work and play can be the same.

21 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That's a legitimate perspective. but it doesn't get any closer to your opening claim about uniting "us". Mandela's opinion notwithstanding. Actually, the least enjoyable FIFA world cup was 2010: vuvuzelas are worse than bagpipes! 

Yes a legitimate perspective, and it certainly does, as Nelson wisely said, unite, among other well known qualities. On the FIFA analogy/example, I don't enjoy all sports either, but still appreciate the skill, efforts and sacrifices that may be involved.

ps: I enjoy bagpipes also. I was actually present and one of the 38,000 people at this concert. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW5cECZx8k0 a great violinist, great showman, great entrepeneur, and great entertainer. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by beecee

[joigus]

12 hours ago, beecee said:

Commit this version to memory matey! ☺️

 

11 hours ago, Peterkin said:

What about "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"? Oddly enough, I also know more of Matilda than Fitzgerald.

There you are. Music is another thing that unites people. I wasn't familiar with the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald song. I like music with a story. When a tune lives on for generations there's always an important reason behind.

Music has the potential to unite people from different centuries. What about that?

4 hours ago, Peterkin said:

That is NOT my position.

My position is that sport is wonderful (I've said so) that sport is a good way to deflect aggression into harmless competition (I said so in my first response) that sport is a healthy outlet for frustration, a great way to build strength, stamina and co-ordination. Sport, particularly team sport, is good training for children to learn rules, co-operation, self-control and how to cope with disappointment. It's a primitive but reliable assessment of adolescent males for their status in a masculine hierarchy (if you must have those) and an even better means of bolstering the confidence of adolescent females. It's also fun, both to participate in and to watch. A home team inspires loyalty and pride of community. I may have left some stuff out, but the main theme here is that sport is wonderful (I've said that already).

 What's bad is commercializing it, turning it into a spectacle, exploiting athletes and driving them to self-destructive behaviours in pursuit of winning, isolating them, wrecking their childhood and social life, idolizing them and commodifying them at the same time.  What's wrong is turning a joyful leisure activity that everyone should enjoy into a profession and a business. That's wrong. 

Ditto.

[beecee]

3 hours ago, joigus said:

 I like music with a story. When a tune lives on for generations there's always an important reason behind.

Music has the potential to unite people from different centuries. What about that?

Yes, on that, I'm in total agreement.

[Peterkin]

Yeah, but dead people are so much easier to get along with than the so-and-so with the weak bladder three seats over, and the painted idjit jumping up and spilling his beer at every near miss by the wrong team!

[Der_Neugierige]

Fear, nationality, traditions, food

 

Americans often try to convince me that the USA was a big and diverse country. I see it different. There is no difference between a Californian, Texanian or a Floridaman. They all have the same traditions, eat kind the same food, same attitudes and they all watch saturday night life.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Der_Neugierige

[iNow]

28 minutes ago, Der_Neugierige said:

I see it different. There is no difference between a Californian, Texanian or a Floridaman. They all have the same traditions, eat kind the same food, same attitudes and they all watch saturday night life

It sounds more like you have never experienced any of these places for yourself and apparently don't know what you're talking about. 

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Der_Neugierige said:

There is no difference between a Californian, Texanian or a Floridaman. They all have the same traditions,

Car washing, and living in states with an "A" in them?

1 hour ago, Der_Neugierige said:

eat kind the same food,

Hmm, not so much. It may be called the same thing, but the Chinese and Mexican food in California are very different from the Chinese and Mexican food in either Texas or Florida. 

1 hour ago, Der_Neugierige said:

same attitudes

We all hate intolerance, and the Swiss.

1 hour ago, Der_Neugierige said:

and they all watch saturday night life.

... at some point over the last 45 years. 

[TheVat]

 

 

 

[beecee]

14 minutes ago, TheVat said:

 

 

Love that tune and the Zither....

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by beecee

[Der_Neugierige]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

It sounds more like you have never experienced any of these places for yourself and apparently don't know what you're talking about. 

True. 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Der_Neugierige

[joigus]

28 minutes ago, Der_Neugierige said:

Thats the proof you know nothing about Switzerland.

Not exactly. That's proof that Harry Lime didn't know about the Bernoulli family of mathematicians --and many other things like:

Velcro

The Swiss army knife

Muesli

...

https://www.thelocal.ch/20180822/what-a-trip-eight-great-swiss-inventions/

Maybe Harry Lime didn't appreciate mathematics, or never had a use for Velcro.  

Edited July 30, 2021 by joigus
added link

[Peterkin]

Even if those were the actual choices, I'd take the clock. What came out of that period in Italy would have happened somewhere, anyway, because it was time - but who else was ever going to come with the cuckoo clock?

(I'll pass on the muesli, if it's all right...)

Edited July 30, 2021 by Peterkin
afterthought

[Der_Neugierige]

If you believe our economy is made of tourism, banks, cheese and chocolats then you are lowbrows. 

BTW cuckoo clocks are German not Swiss. They are Schwabian of origine. We rather produce real clocks like Swatch, Rolex, IWC, Breitling or Tissot.

You missed Leonhard Euler a mathematican from Basel. He invented this e constante.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Der_Neugierige

[joigus]

29 minutes ago, Der_Neugierige said:

You missed Leonhard Euler a mathematican from Basel. He invented this e constante.

 

I know. I wasn't going for a complete list. Pity he had to go to Russia to show his talent, as there was no academic position for him in Basel. He did some sick things with infinite power series.

Please, try to use the quote function; it's easier to guess when you're addressing me.

By the way, nobody mentioned tourism, banking, cheese or chocolate. My whole point is that trying to shoehorn a country like the US into the pot of cliches  that you just did is about as silly and misguided as trying to shoehorn Switzerland into a similar list of Swiss cliches.

Do we understand each other now?