What aspects of human society unites us?

[TheVat]

https://youtu.be/FebgVrBTaPw

Johnny English:  Dear god let me not die at the hands of the Swiss!

[Der_Neugierige]

7 minutes ago, joigus said:

I know. I wasn't going for a complete list. Pity he had to go to Russia to show his talent, as there was no academic position for him in Basel. He did some sick things with infinite power series.

Please, try to use the quote function; it's easier to guess when you're addressing me.

By the way, nobody mentioned tourism, banking, cheese or chocolate. My whole point is that trying to shoehorn a country like the US into the pot of cliches  that you just did is about as silly and misguided as trying to shoehorn Switzerland into a similar list of Swiss cliches.

Do we understand each other now?

Yes.

[Peterkin]

Disappointed about the cuckoo clock!

But when I bethink the Swiss and Bavarian geography, customs, architecture, lifestyle... I guess it's all right.

[beecee]

23 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I have no statistics on this, but I suspect Nana Mouskouri has brought together more disparate people (like you and me) than Beauden Barrett.

Sorry missed this one. A statistic many are unaware of, if asked who is the biggest selling female artist in the world, you would hear names like Rhianna, Madonna, Swift and probably a few other recent aditions I'm not aware of, yet it is Nana, the Greek Angel, who holds that spot.https://www.greekgateway.com/news/nana-mouskouri-the-worlds-highest-selling-female-artist/

Made a world tour in 2014 at the age of 80 years, where I saw her at the State Theartre in Sydney, and first saw here on my 1st wedding anniversary in 1976 at the Sydney Opera House. 

 

[Der_Neugierige]

22 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Disappointed about the cuckoo clock!

But when I bethink the Swiss and Bavarian geography, customs, architecture, lifestyle... I guess it's all right.

Gosh! 

This kind of houses you will only find in some German speaking part of Switzerland. And only in smaller villages not in Zürich. And will hardly find any Swiss who wear traditional costumes neither do the Germans. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Der_Neugierige

[iNow]

One thing that brings us together and unites us is staying on-topic 

[beecee]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

One thing that brings us together and unites us is staying on-topic 

Along with some VB, don't forget the VB!       

sorry. 😉

[TheVat]

Carl Jung was Swiss,  so there's that.   And the watches are topnotch.  I think Belgium would provide some challenge to your chocolatey hegemony,  however, M. Neu.   And I have to question putting holes in cheese.   Two considerations on that - one,  you get slightly less cheese in a given volume - two,  generally when food has holes in it (the doughnut excepted),  there is cause for concern as to what might have created those cavities.   In any case, following M. Neu's example of scientific sampling,  I shall base all my judgments of Switzerland on the cross-section I found when I spent a day (more like an afternoon, really) in Geneva and the five Swiss I met there.   

[beecee]

One thing I have noticed with these Olympic games, with regards to swimming, is that generally its the USA, and Australia prominent with the gold medals...this time its far more varied with other countries like Great Britian, Russia, Hungary, China doing great, South Africa, Canada, along with the young Tunisian fellow, sharing with Aust and US.

Fiji of course [an Island nation of a million people], winning its second gold in Rugby sevens. 

A point that has occured to me, our athletes [Aussies] are returning home after each completes their events, [I think it probably applies to all countries, being a covid 19 safe inititive] so what's install for the closing ceremony? No Athletes involved? No chance to say goodbye?

[Peterkin]

47 minutes ago, Der_Neugierige said:

And will hardly find any Swiss who wear traditional costumes neither do the Germans. 

See, they have that in common, too!

 

39 minutes ago, iNow said:

One thing that brings us together and unites us is staying on-topic 

Well, I sometimes come back to it - does that count?

[MigL]

Visited my aunt in Switzerland two years ago.
She lives North-East of Zurich ( Dietlikon ).
Didn't like it at all. There are no houses; only small apartment buildings, and they all look the same.
Society is very neat/ordered however, and they have sit-down bars in liquor/wine stores; so not all bad.
( I liked Southern Germany much better; and cheaper )

My cousin took me to Rhinefalls, and said "This is the largest waterfall in Europe".
I said "Meh, we have Niagara Falls"

But I did have a coffee in the cafe that A Einstein frequented when he attended Zurich Polytechnic.

[beecee]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

But I did have a coffee in the cafe that A Einstein frequented when he attended Zurich Polytechnic.

Good stuff!  Science like music and sport, certainly do unite us! 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

My cousin took me to Rhinefalls, and said "This is the largest waterfall in Europe".
I said "Meh, we have Niagara Falls"

Kids these days. So hard to please. 

[joigus]

4 hours ago, iNow said:

One thing that brings us together and unites us is staying on-topic 

Quote

What aspects of human society unites us?

When you think about it, that could be anything.  

[Peterkin]

Sure - anything we share a positive enthusiasm about. Unfortunately, while we're often  positive and enthusiastic about the same things, we're not that good at the sharing part.

[beecee]

16 hours ago, joigus said:

What aspects of human society unites us?

When you think about it, that could be anything.  

A couple of weeks ago, we had in Sydney a politically, and conspiracy orientated, anti vax/lockdown march, defying health and Police orders. The march as predicted turned violent with assualts on mounted Police horses and the Police themselves. Many were arrested and a general plea went out by the health and Police officials, for anyone recognising anyone in the march to dob them in. More then 5000 calls were made of people being recognised and many more arrests made and are still being made as we speak/type. Snitching on a pack of red neck rebels, has united Sydney like never before!

[joigus]

7 minutes ago, beecee said:

A couple of weeks ago, we had in Sydney a politically, and conspiracy orientated, anti vax/lockdown march, defying health and Police orders. The march as predicted turned violent with assualts on mounted Police horses and the Police themselves. Many were arrested and a general plea went out by the health and Police officials, for anyone recognising anyone in the march to dob them in. More then 5000 calls were made of people being recognised and many more arrests made and are still being made as we speak/type. Snitching on a pack of red neck rebels, has united Sydney like never before!

People uniting for a good cause is devoutly to be wished... sometimes. For a good cause. Your example is a good cause, as the goal is to thwart violence. But it's got me thinking. The Khmer Rouge were strongly united, when you think about it. It seems to me unison per se is not necessarily good. I think we've missed that possibility in our discussion. So, when is unison a good thing?

[beecee]

4 minutes ago, joigus said:

 So, when is unison a good thing?

When it is supported by science?

[Peterkin]

6 minutes ago, joigus said:

So, when is unison a good thing?

In defence of the community: in a flood relief or fire-fighting or evacuation effort.

In shared projects for mutual benefit, such as building a bridge or inventing a vaccine. 

In support of some vulnerable, weaker entity - like polar bears or monarch butterflies.

In overcoming a threat or recovering from a crisis that affects everyone.

In the wise use of resources. 

(not in blind, unthinking zeal for a demagogue or simplistic ideal)

I'm nut sure how Science can be enlisted to support social organization. I think the understanding has to come first and the use of some aspect of science afterward, for an agreed-on purpose.

[beecee]

29 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I'm nut sure how Science can be enlisted to support social organization. I think the understanding has to come first and the use of some aspect of science afterward, for an agreed-on purpose.

I'm pretty sure we actually have become unaware of science in every day life...perhaps that old adage, "familiarity breeds contempt" may apply? In reality we unknowingly use science to organize in everyday life, to improve living standards. Science today and the three main applications of physics, chemistry and biology all help in this regard.

Personally, the best example I am able to offer [being married to a Fijian and having lived there for 6 months at a rime]is the gregarious nature of Fijian society, during this pedamic. While originally having it under control, it now has spread dangerously with hundreds of infections daily. Much of this has been put down to the gregarious, communal approach to life in Fiji and the customary, traditional kava drinking from a common bowl. Stopping this age old practice has proved difficult.

That  coupled with the unscientific conspiracy crap that abounds on social media with regards to vaccination in general, and the AstraZeneca brand in particular, and the preoccupation with young Fijians on social media, is adding to that difficulty, and hindering the implementation of the proper scientific protocol.

We ignore science in everyday society and social orginization at our peril.  

Edited July 31, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, beecee said:

I'm pretty sure we actually have become unaware of science in every day life...perhaps that old adage, "familiarity breeds contempt" may apply?

We can't help being aware. The contempt is deliberately manufactured by unscrupulous actors who want to co-opt some function of science to their own benefit, while turning their followers away from understanding it.

 

2 hours ago, beecee said:

In reality we unknowingly use science to organize in everyday life, to improve living standards.

who! Those are two very different purposes. Organization is not at all the same as improvement. Some application of science plays a part in just about every aspect of modern life, but Science as a way of approaching reality doesn't: it tends to be pushed aside by politics, monetary self-interest and religion. 

2 hours ago, beecee said:

Science today and the three main applications of physics, chemistry and biology all help in this regard.

In all regards. Solar panels and 'smart' missiles; truth serum and insulin; disease resistant crops and a pathogen that kills caterpillars. 

 

2 hours ago, beecee said:

That  coupled with the unscientific conspiracy crap that abounds on social media with regards to vaccination in general...

Both social media and vaccines are examples of applied science. Science is a means to find out things - like how to design machines and molecules. It can serve any agent to accomplish any goal - harmful, beneficial, pointless of frivolous. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Peterkin
I didn't fix nut ion the last one, but gents just looks too silly

[beecee]

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

We can't help being aware. The contempt is deliberately manufactured by unscrupulous actors who want to co-opt some function of science to their own benefit, while turning their followers away from understanding it.

I'm speaking of the everyday Joe Blow walking the streets, that is unaware and ignorant in how science is involved in most all we do to some extent, not the minority of unscrupulous actors/individuals that we can find in any discipline, including sadly, even science.

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

who! Those are two very different purposes. Organization is not at all the same as improvement. Some application of science plays a part in just about every aspect of modern life, 

Who? Let me use some quotes from notable sources, that seem to agree with how I look at scientific organization in every day society....

"Science is simply common sense at its best that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic": Thomas Henry Huxley. (English biologist).

"Science is the systematic classification of experience". George Henry Lewes 

"Science is what you know. Philosophy is what you don't know": Bertrand Russell 

"Science is] an imaginative adventure of the mind seeking truth in a world of mystery".Sir Cyril Herman Hinshelwood (1897-1967) English chemist. Nobel prize 1956.

"[Science is] the knowledge of consequences, and dependence of one fact upon another".Thomas Hobbes English philosopher, author.

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

but Science as a way of approaching reality doesn't: it tends to be pushed aside by politics, monetary self-interest and religion. 

Yes, sadly true to some extent. But despite the politics, the monetary self interest, and religion of course, there would not too be many that would go to a politician for a brain injury opinion, or not too many religious people that would ignore medical advice because of some verse in the bible. When the chips are down, the scientific application generally shows the way. No science is not always right...as this pandemic illustrates, but it is and does get it more and more right as time progresses.  

"[Science is] piecemeal revelation". Oliver Wendell Holmes U. S. poet, essayist, physician.

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

In all regards. Solar panels and 'smart' missiles; truth serum and insulin; disease resistant crops and a pathogen that kills caterpillars. 

And many more desirable examples in everyday life.

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Both social media and vaccines are examples of applied science. Science is a means to find out things - like how to design machines and molecules. It can serve any agent to accomplish any goal - harmful, beneficial, pointless of frivolous. 

 Yes, that's what I'm saying, along with sport and music of course, for the last page or so. My comment though, thus, "That  coupled with the unscientific conspiracy crap that abounds on social media with regards to vaccination in general" was in reference to the anti vaccination nuts, and  the conspiracy ratbags, that put all of Sydney in danger last week's march, [against the scientific and medical advice] and the same ratbags that flood social media with unscientific claims about vaccinations, and the many dumb conspiracies that abound on social media, and which some of my Wife's relos on facebook, were quoting and having misgivings about. In other words, the ratbag anti vax/conspiracy nutters, have used social media for their own unscientific agenda.

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

I'm speaking of the everyday Joe Blow walking the streets, that is unaware and ignorant in how science is involved in most all we do to some extent, not the minority of unscrupulous actors/individuals that we can find in any discipline, including sadly, even science.

I know whom you mean. And, it's true, most people don't know how science is involved, but they're quite aware that they themselves are using technology.  What they generally don't distinguish is the fiction of "Science" as a big monolithic entity that speaks with a single voice and follows a single agenda, from the reality of piecemeal, uncoordinated scientific activities aimed at disparate outcomes for disparate reasons.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Who? Let me use some quotes from notable sources, that seem to agree with how I look at scientific organization in every day society....

 How are they relevant?  I was responding to:

5 hours ago, beecee said:

In reality we unknowingly use science to organize in everyday life, to improve living standards.

Who are this "we" that use science? And those are two different spheres: organization of society and improving living standards. Science has no role in the organization of societies. It can help people (some people) improve their living standard - but sometimes kills them instead, and quite often kills many in order to improve the living standard of a few.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

No science is not always right...as this pandemic illustrates, but it is and does get it more and more right as time progresses.  

That makes no difference if it's ignored or abused by the people in power.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

In all regards. Solar panels and 'smart' missiles; truth serum and insulin; disease resistant crops and a pathogen that kills caterpillars. 

And many more desirable examples in everyday life.

Do you really believe that missiles and solar panels are equally desirable? 

I would rather say: and many other examples of effective means to both harmful and beneficial ends. 

1 hour ago, beecee said:

was in reference to the anti vaccination nuts,

I know. And I replied that the social media spreading that toxin are also a product of scientific activity. Science supplies media and weapons for its enemies, as well as its friends.  Science is just a tool for getting things done - good things, bad things, dumb things, fun things, all kinds of things. Science is not inherently right, good and  noble - any more than it is inherently wrong, evil and despicable.

It's just one of the methods people use to get what they want. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Peterkin
everything always needs improvement

[beecee]

53 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I know whom you mean. And, it's true, most people don't know how science is involved, but they're quite aware that they themselves are using technology.  What they generally don't distinguish is the concepts of "Science" as a big monolithic entity that speaks with a single voice and follows a single agenda, from the reality of piecemeal, uncoordinated scientific activities aimed at disparate outcomes.

 How are they relevant?  I was responding to:

Who are this "we" that use science? And those are two different spheres: organization of society and improving living standards. Science has no role in the organization of societies. It can help people (some people) improve their living standard - but sometimes kills them instead, and quite often kills many in order to improve the living standard of a few.

That makes no difference if it's ignored by the people in power.

Do you really believe that missiles and solar panels are equally desirable? 

I would rather say: and many other examples of effective means to both harmful and beneficial ends. 

I know. And I replied that the social media spreading that toxin are also a product of scientific activity. Science supplies media and weapons for its enemies, as well as its friends.  Science is just a tool for getting things done - good things, bad things, dumb things, fun things, all kinds of things. Science is not inherently right, good and  science - any more than it is inherently wrong, evil and despicable.

It's just one of the methods people use to get what they want. 

Without wasting too much time on this merry-go-round, I respectfully suggest that you appear a half empty sort of bloke, while I prefer half full [more realistically probably 7/8 full]. Plus of course there is good and bad in any endeavour, as I have said many, many times, but thankfully in most, particularly sport, science and music, the good side far, far out ranks that which maybe construed as undesirable or bad. And again, seriously, it is not sport which is bad...it is not science which can be bad, it is not music...it is the rare individuals that may seek to use it, or abuse it to there own advantage...I have given an example of that with Don King the Boxing Manager, and another of the same ilk, would be Colonel Tom Sanders, Elvis' former manager. The Good, the bad, and the ugly, it all exists. I prefer to concentrate on the uniting and beneficial qualities of sport, and obviously science, and music, not the negative side, unless of course it gives me the opportunity to right that negativity and the undesirable parts. But that won't happen, nothing is perfect as most of us know.

On one more point, you misconstrue my statement replying to your missiles and solar panels.... of course they are not equally desirable, not by a long shot,  particularly since I mentioned earlier in the subject in this thread, about devoting one's energies towards de-militarisation of nations. It is again, the individual that turns to the harmful ends of a particular aspect of science, [or sport] Or if you prefer, everything has a dark side. Yes, I could have worded it better, but I'm sure most understood what I was driving at. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by beecee

[beecee]

One of the most obvious benefits this century that has illustrated the unifying aspect of sport was the combined entrance of North and South Korea at the 23rd Winter Olympics held in 2018, in Pyeongchang, South Korea. They also entered a combined Women's Hockey team....  https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/winter-olympics/unified-korea-ice-hockey-north-south-sweden-pyeongchang-2018-games-a8194346.html

At these Games, the North and South Koreans marched together behind a “unified Korea” flag in the opening and closing ceremonies.

And who could forget the great Nelson Mandella, when he was finally appointed as the country's first Black President, after 27 years in confinement, at the 1995  Rugby Union World Cup, when the Springboks won and Mandella appeared on field in his country's colours for the presentation...

A Movie made of that momentious event called "Invictus". Of course the defining point made was that Nelson Mandela campaigned long and hard for South Africa to host the world cup, as a means to reunite his fractured country, torn apart by apartheid, by the best way he knew... Sport!.

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by beecee