Is this study evidence for ADE from Covid vaccine? [Answered: NO!]

[BV63]

I have not enough knowledge. Someone claimed it is strong evidence but not 100%.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.07.21253098v2

[swansont]

2 hours ago, BV63 said:

I have not enough knowledge. Someone claimed it is strong evidence but not 100%.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.07.21253098v2

Can you provide more information, such as the abstract of this paper?

[BV63]

32 minutes ago, swansont said:

Can you provide more information, such as the abstract of this paper?

Not sure what you mean. I just have this link.

Edited July 29, 2021 by BV63

[StringJunky]

The plasmablast response to SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination is dominated by non-neutralizing antibodies and targets both the NTD and the RBD
Fatima Amanat, Mahima Thapa, Tinting Lei, Shaza M. Sayed Ahmed, Daniel C. Adelsberg, Juan Manuel Carreno, Shirin Strohmeier, Aaron J. Schmitz, Sarah Zafar,  View ORCID ProfileJulian Q Zhou, Willemijn Rijnink, Hala Alshammary, Nicholas Borcherding, Ana Gonzalez Reiche, Komal Srivastava,  View ORCID ProfileEmilia Mia Sordillo,  View ORCID ProfileHarm van Bakel, The Personalized Virology Initiative, Jackson S. Turner, Goran Bajic, Viviana Simon,  View ORCID ProfileAli H. Ellebedy, Florian Krammer
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.03.07.21253098
This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.
AbstractFull TextInfo/HistoryMetrics Preview PDF
Summary
In this study we profiled vaccine-induced polyclonal antibodies as well as plasmablast derived mAbs from individuals who received SARS-CoV-2 spike mRNA vaccine. Polyclonal antibody responses in vaccinees were robust and comparable to or exceeded those seen after natural infection. However, the ratio of binding to neutralizing antibodies after vaccination was greater than that after natural infection and, at the monoclonal level, we found that the majority of vaccine-induced antibodies did not have neutralizing activity. We also found a co-dominance of mAbs targeting the NTD and RBD of SARS-CoV-2 spike and an original antigenic-sin like backboost to seasonal human coronaviruses OC43 and HKU1. Neutralizing activity of NTD mAbs but not RBD mAbs against a clinical viral isolate carrying E484K as well as extensive changes in the NTD was abolished, suggesting that a proportion of vaccine induced RBD binding antibodies may provide substantial protection against viral variants carrying single E484K RBD mutations.

 

[swansont]

40 minutes ago, BV63 said:

Not sure what you mean. I just have this link.

If you have a link, then I'm sure you've accessed the paper, and you should be able to copy/past the summary or abstract here into the forum (as StringJunky has done) and comply with rule 2.7 (people have to be able to participate in the discussion without clicking any links)

[BV63]

11 minutes ago, swansont said:

If you have a link, then I'm sure you've accessed the paper, and you should be able to copy/past the summary or abstract here into the forum (as StringJunky has done) and comply with rule 2.7 (people have to be able to participate in the discussion without clicking any links)

Ah ok now i understand what you mean! 😃

[swansont]

7 minutes ago, BV63 said:

Ah ok now i understand what you mean! 😃

Now, can you point out where ADE is mentioned?

(and perhaps inform us as to what ADE stands for)

[BV63]

Just now, swansont said:

Now, can you point out where ADE is mentioned?

(and perhaps inform us as to what ADE stands for)

I just read it on a blog. The guy is very smart so i figured he may be right. But i wanted to ask here as well.

I know dr Robert Malone is warning it could be happening.

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, BV63 said:

I just read it on a blog. The guy is very smart so i figured he may be right. But i wanted to ask here as well.

I know dr Robert Malone is warning it could be happening.

 

And you chose not to link to the blog and the claims it makes.

[BV63]

38 minutes ago, swansont said:

And you chose not to link to the blog and the claims it makes.

Sure i can if you want. https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=242430

[studiot]

12 minutes ago, BV63 said:

Sure i can if you want. https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=242430

Surely no respectable Scientist or Doctor would put out the sort of alarmist and inflammatory claptrap I read in that article.

 

Just one example of over exaggeration.

Quote

OC43 and HKU1 are betacoronaviruses that produce colds and flus in humans; they're considered mild annoyances these days.  But one of them, OC43, is believed to have been a serious pandemic flu in the 1890 timeframe.  We can't prove it but sequencing, simple time analysis and reports from that time of people dying in the same sort of way as Covid-19 killed people are in the literature.  Between those it is a reasonable hypothesis that OC43 was the cause of that, and it was real.

Now I don't know what OC43 is, but I do know that there were no hospitals equipped with oxygen tents and respirators in 1890 anywhere in the world.

So how could any patient be dying in the same way as Covid ?

 

You still haven't answered swansont's question

What is ADE  ?

I note that typing ADE into Google get lots of reputable hits including government websites.

ADE doesn't only apply to Covid, though sadly we do not (yet) appear to fully understand it.

Perhaps when some members here who are proper experts in this field log on they will have some useful explanation for you.

 

Are you worried about liver damage or what ?

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by studiot

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Now, can you point out where ADE is mentioned?

(and perhaps inform us as to what ADE stands for)

Antibody-Dependent Enhancement. From what I read, the issue is when antibodies bind to a virus but fail to neutralise it, which apparently can sometime happen, the virus-plus-antibody complex is ingested by cells in the body as part of the normal destruction process for foreign proteins, but then the virus can detach inside the cell and infect it. So the antibody has actually aided penetration of the virus into the cell. Again, from what I read, the possibility of ADE was checked for in the development of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and there is, apparently, no evidence for it. 

But I may have got this a bit wrong in places so I'd very much welcome comment from @CharonY

By the way, this Dr Robert Malone character seems to be misrepresenting his contributions to the development of mRMA vaccines, so he may be a bit of a self-publicist and it  may therefore be best to treat what he says on this subject with some circumspection.

I quote from https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd: 

"On his personal website, Twitter, and LinkedIn, Dr. Robert Malone has been promoting himself as the inventor of mRNA vaccines. This is misleading. In 1989, Malone published a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While this paper is an example of his important contribution to the then-emerging field, it does not make him the inventor of mRNA vaccines.

According to Stat News, "for decades, scientists have dreamed about the seemingly endless possibilities of custom-made messenger RNA or mRNA." According to the New York Times, "For her entire career, Dr. Kariko has focused on messenger RNA, or mRNA — the genetic script that carries DNA instructions to each cell’s protein-making machinery. She was convinced mRNA could be used to instruct cells to make their own medicines, including vaccines."

While Malone's research may have been important, scientific breakthroughs don't always boast a sole "inventor." Instead, they come about through the work of many.

UPDATE: Malone reached out to Logically, stating that he did not invent the mRNA vaccines, but instead the "vaccine technology platform." He also presented us with copies of nine patents – none of which showed that he invented the mRNA vaccines. The judgment for the claim has not changed.

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by exchemist

[studiot]

One more thought I meant to put in my last post.

We are now well into the second half of 2021.

We know more than we did about Covid, but there have been many suprises

Many papers and date stem from 2019/2020 when Covid was almost unknown.

So beware of old data.

[CharonY]

35 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Antibody-Dependent Enhancement. From what I read, the issue is when antibodies bind to a virus but fail to neutralise it, which apparently can sometime happen, the virus-plus-antibody complex is ingested by cells in the body as part of the normal destruction process for foreign proteins, but then the virus can detach inside the cell and infect it. So the antibody has actually aided penetration of the virus into the cell. Again, from what I read, the possibility of ADE was checked for in the development of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and there is, apparently, no evidence for it. 

But I may have got this a bit wrong in places so I'd very much welcome comment from @CharonY

By the way, this Dr Robert Malone character seems to be misrepresenting his contributions to the development of mRMA vaccines, so he may be a bit of a self-publicist and it  may therefore be best to treat what he says on this subject with some circumspection.

I quote from https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd: 

"On his personal website, Twitter, and LinkedIn, Dr. Robert Malone has been promoting himself as the inventor of mRNA vaccines. This is misleading. In 1989, Malone published a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While this paper is an example of his important contribution to the then-emerging field, it does not make him the inventor of mRNA vaccines.

According to Stat News, "for decades, scientists have dreamed about the seemingly endless possibilities of custom-made messenger RNA or mRNA." According to the New York Times, "For her entire career, Dr. Kariko has focused on messenger RNA, or mRNA — the genetic script that carries DNA instructions to each cell’s protein-making machinery. She was convinced mRNA could be used to instruct cells to make their own medicines, including vaccines."

While Malone's research may have been important, scientific breakthroughs don't always boast a sole "inventor." Instead, they come about through the work of many.

UPDATE: Malone reached out to Logically, stating that he did not invent the mRNA vaccines, but instead the "vaccine technology platform." He also presented us with copies of nine patents – none of which showed that he invented the mRNA vaccines. The judgment for the claim has not changed.

 

That is a good summary and there is nothing in the paper to suggest anything of that sort and the link provided by op seems to be a random forum post that appears rather incoherent to me. Fundamentally non-neutralizing antibodies can increase protection (as the paper pointed out), which as a whole is a good thing, and from skimming the lit some papers suggest that they may provide more robustness against variants.

Moreover, while it is true that ADE relies on non-neutralizing antbodies, it is not that they automatically cause it. The effects seems to be highly dependent on the virus and I think has been reported in HIV, Ebola and Dengue, but not in coronavirus infections for example.

The single most important bit however is that any vaccine-related ADE would be detected in phase III trials, as they would manifest as vaccinated folks would then have a worse response to COVID-19 than unvaccinated folks. During the rollout we have even more and better data than pretty much any other vaccine and still there is no trace of it. So, no the paper does not indicate anything OP is suggesting, as others already pointed out.

 

[exchemist]

6 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That is a good summary and there is nothing in the paper to suggest anything of that sort and the link provided by op seems to be a random forum post that appears rather incoherent to me. Fundamentally non-neutralizing antibodies can increase protection (as the paper pointed out), which as a whole is a good thing, and from skimming the lit some papers suggest that they may provide more robustness against variants.

Moreover, while it is true that ADE relies on non-neutralizing antbodies, it is not that they automatically cause it. The effects seems to be highly dependent on the virus and I think has been reported in HIV, Ebola and Dengue, but not in coronavirus infections for example.

The single most important bit however is that any vaccine-related ADE would be detected in phase III trials, as they would manifest as vaccinated folks would then have a worse response to COVID-19 than unvaccinated folks. During the rollout we have even more and better data than pretty much any other vaccine and still there is no trace of it. So, no the paper does not indicate anything OP is suggesting, as others already pointed out.

 

Thanks for confirming.

I must say I struggled a bit to see what the risk could be, given that hundreds of millions of doses have now been administered, all across the world, with very few issues or side-effects and certainly no reports of the vaccines making people more ill from the virus. 

But I've come across this ADE schtick elsewhere, peddling by antivaxxers. It may be one of their current stories that is doing the rounds. 

[CharonY]

25 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Thanks for confirming.

I must say I struggled a bit to see what the risk could be, given that hundreds of millions of doses have now been administered, all across the world, with very few issues or side-effects and certainly no reports of the vaccines making people more ill from the virus. 

But I've come across this ADE schtick elsewhere, peddling by antivaxxers. It may be one of their current stories that is doing the rounds. 

It is a desperate overextrapolation of possibilities. Akin to saying eating bacon gives you cancer. There is a kind of mechanism, but ignores the whole biology between mechanism and outcome.

[Arete]

4 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is a desperate overextrapolation of possibilities. Akin to saying eating bacon gives you cancer. There is a kind of mechanism, but ignores the whole biology between mechanism and outcome.

Not to mention breakthrough cases are reported to display significantly milder symptoms and lower rates of hospitalization/mortality than infections in unvaccinated individuals. If ADE were a significant concern, the opposite would be observed. Basically, reiterating what CharonY has already said, there's no evidence for ADE caused by a COVID19 vaccine, and the available evidence suggests it is not an issue.

You'll notice this follows a standard antivax/conspiracy format, in that each new claim is unrelated to the prior (e.g. PCR tests don't work, the vaccine alters your DNA, etc) and is an increasing stretch/absurd misinterpretation than the prior. I already checked "Harvard medical School is trying to create a socialist new world order, so you can't trust their publications" on my nutjob bingo card answering questions on COVID. 

[CharonY]

12 minutes ago, Arete said:

I already checked "Harvard medical School is trying to create a socialist new world order, so you can't trust their publications" on my nutjob bingo card answering questions on COVID. 

Dear god. I assume you also have "vaccines are made from babies", "only vaccinated folks die" and "can you catch vaccines from other people"?

[BV63]

Wanted your opinion on this to.

Geert Vanden Bossche warning.

https://odysee.com/@Covidbel:5/Geert:7?src=embed

 

His site: https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/post/a-last-word-of-caution-to-all-those-pretending-the-covid-19-pandemic-is-toning-down

Edited July 30, 2021 by BV63

[CharonY]

Can you give us a short summary of what you want to ask? 

[BV63]

Just now, CharonY said:

Can you give us a short summary of what you want to ask? 

He is warning that the vaccination will lead to catastrophe.

Since i am not an expert it is better if you read from his website instead of me copying some quotes from there.

 

[studiot]

23 minutes ago, BV63 said:

He is warning that the vaccination will lead to catastrophe.

Since i am not an expert it is better if you read from his website instead of me copying some quotes from there.

 

So here's the report on a man who refused vaccination and died of covid.

Stephen Harmon

How big a catastrophe was that ?

Quote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57958358

LA man who mocked Covid-19 vaccines dies of virus

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by studiot

[CharonY]

Sorry, I don't think that I have the time to read through random blogposts just to identify and pick apart the various arguments that made (up). As Arete mentioned, folks make up increasingly inane arguments and one could spend a lot of unproductive time trying to debunk each of those. If you have a key question or have issues with understanding I'd be happy to help you along, but otherwise the short summary is that that person is wrong, as all data indicates that the catastrophe is what we are already seeing, millions of deaths without vaccination.

The only alternative would have been massive levels of isolation and contact tracing, but that ship has sailed. Any other extrapolations of how bad things potentially could be pale to what already is and is based on shakier or non-existent data.

Just now, studiot said:

So here's the report on a man who refused vaccination and died of covid.

Stephen Harmon

 

In a similar vein https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/us/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-regret.html

 

[BV63]

3 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Sorry, I don't think that I have the time to read through random blogposts just to identify and pick apart the various arguments that made (up). As Arete mentioned, folks make up increasingly inane arguments and one could spend a lot of unproductive time trying to debunk each of those. If you have a key question or have issues with understanding I'd be happy to help you along, but otherwise the short summary is that that person is wrong, as all data indicates that the catastrophe is what we are already seeing, millions of deaths without vaccination.

The only alternative would have been massive levels of isolation and contact tracing, but that ship has sailed. Any other extrapolations of how bad things potentially could be pale to what already is and is based on shakier or non-existent data.

In a similar vein https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/us/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-regret.html

 

This is not anyone.

"Geert Vanden Bossche received his DVM from the University of Ghent, Belgium, and his PhD degree in Virology from the University of Hohenheim, Germany. He held adjunct faculty appointments at universities in Belgium and Germany. After his career in Academia, Geert joined several vaccine companies (GSK Biologicals, Novartis Vaccines, Solvay Biologicals) to serve various roles in vaccine R&D as well as in late vaccine development. Geert then moved on to join the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation’s Global Health Discovery team in Seattle (USA) as Senior Program Officer; he then worked with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization (GAVI) in Geneva"

He writes: "There can be no doubt that, at this stage, the pandemic is gearing up for breeding vaccine-resistant ‘supervariants’, a phenomenon that is at risk of fueling an even larger wave of morbidity, hospitalization and, unfortunately, also death, not at least in the vaccinated part of the population. "

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, BV63 said:

He writes: "There can be no doubt that, at this stage, the pandemic is gearing up for breeding vaccine-resistant ‘supervariants’, a phenomenon that is at risk of fueling an even larger wave of morbidity, hospitalization and, unfortunately, also death, not at least in the vaccinated part of the population. "

That seems reasonable but I cannot see anywhere in the statement how 

 

3 hours ago, BV63 said:

He is warning that the vaccination will lead to catastrophe.

So unless there is somewhere where he said that specifically, it seems to be an erroneous interpretation on your end.

Rather it just says that there are further dangers down the road. I.e. once the resistant variants arrive, we will be at the same stage as we were without the vaccine.

The only argument I can think of is that it is a higher risk to vaccinate if a) the virus remains transmissible even if vaccinated and b) if the circulation of the virus is very high. The argument here is that under these conditions, we may lose the race in creating effective vaccines (the superbug argument).

There are multiple issues with the argument, but even taken at face value, there likely won't be a time when the virus reservoirs vanishes on its own. I.e. the only way based on that argument would be total lockdown until the virus reservoir is low and then vaccinate. 

So take your pick, vaccinate now and risk getting resistant variants or lockdown now and then vaccinate. If someone uses that as an argument to never vaccinate, well, they obviously do not understand the issue at all.