What is Justice?

[beecee]

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

At the time, it was also the  standard reasonable western society.

yes, the standard reasonable society, as dictated by an orginization, involved and fanatically tied up with mystical and mythical beliefs and supernatural nonsense, with equally fanatical, so called moral values etc.

Society today, thankfully is more scientifically inclined as dictated by the scientific method and less fanatically religious, with far more reasonable moralistic values. 

We have a lot to be thankful for.

Edited September 2, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

Thank Something for Australia.

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Thank Something for Australia.

Not at all. I'm speaking generally, although thankfully my country is up there some where. Or was that just sarcastic wit? 

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Does if I smash your car!

Meh, I got insurance... 😉

16 hours ago, beecee said:

Because it's society's definition of punishment, [as part and parcel of a reasonable justice system] at least in any reasonable westernised society.

But it's the definition you are using, ergo...

I can only think of one reason you'd attempt dissociate yourself from that definition and hide behind the majority; because you know that definition contains an element of revenge.

It also distracts from the fact that you have yet to answer, why my definition is wrong, or not applicable to our society...

10 hours ago, beecee said:

yes, the standard reasonable society, as dictated by an orginization, involved and fanatically tied up with mystical and mythical beliefs and supernatural nonsense, with equally fanatical, so called moral values etc.

Society today, thankfully is more scientifically inclined as dictated by the scientific method and less fanatically religious, with far more reasonable moralistic values. 

You do know Trump was a president, right?

"so called moral values etc."

Sure!!! turn the other cheek, be a good Samaritan, forgive etc. is much worse than, I could shoot someone..., separate children from parent's when they illegally enter the country etc. etc. etc. 🙄

Or as it relates to Australia, separate children from parent's when they're there when we got here...

On 9/1/2021 at 2:10 PM, Peterkin said:

We very often (and some psychologists contend, always) act on a feeling and rationalize it later. The particular feeling I was referring to there is a mix of envy, frustration and resentment, which is rolled into a long, smouldering, generalized sense of grievance.

The difference is the base of your emotional rest state.

Being content doesn't mean you never get angry or sad, it just means you let it happen and then forget it.

Being discontent mean's you can't forget it.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by dimreepr

[beecee]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Meh, I got insurance... 😉

But it's the definition you are using, ergo...

I can only think of one reason you'd attempt dissociate yourself from that definition and hide behind the majority; because you know that definition contains an element of revenge.

Sorry, that's how a democratic society works, standing with the majority, rather then that noisy minority....

It's just rather sad that you seem to brush over the fact that it takes all kinds to make up a society, good, law abiding, religious, indifferent, incorridgibley  evil and inhumane....they all exist my friend, and while they all exist, we will need prisons for some of them.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

You do know Trump was a president, right?

"so called moral values etc."

Did you vote for him? Thankfully, your society saw the error of their ways and threw him out again, correct?

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Sure!!! turn the other cheek, be a good Samaritan, forgive etc. is much worse than, I could shoot someone..., separate children from parent's when they illegally enter the country etc. etc. etc. 🙄

Or as it relates to Australia, separate children from parent's when they're there when we got here...

You seem to be highlighting a sad inhumane part of Australia's regretable history? I'm pretty sure I covered all that previously in this or the "torture" thread. That wasn't me you understand? That was 200 years ago. We now as a society are trying to repair some of that harm, with still some way to go.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

It also distracts from the fact that you have yet to answer, why my definition is wrong, or not applicable to our society...

No distraction at all, simply facts put to you that don't fit with your philosophy. And once again, pointing out another error in your thinking, I have never really said that your definition is wrong, just that it is unrealistic. A reasonable justice system does three main things...punish, protect and rehabilitate. Just as punishment can take many forms, so to is the degree of evil and inhumane acts parts of any society  may perpetrate. 

 

A few facts for you. If you do the crime [serious] be prepared to do the time. Not sure who said that, but it is appropriate. Let me also comment on your philosophy that jailing anyone is about revenge. To some extent, you are probably right. Perhaps the little girl that was tied up, raped and tortured, by an animal that was given a lifeline and on parole, along with her poor parents, would be glad to see this excuse of humanity jailed. In their case, his probable dysfunctional upbringing, circumstances, and whatever he experienced in his childhood, matters not. In their case, it is probably and understandably about revenge. Thankfully, I have never been the victim of a violent serious crime, nor has any of my close family. I seriously doubt that I would turn the other cheek, and forgive such a person. I would want justice done. If you see that as revenge then so be it. Have you ever been in such a situation as this little girl's parents? Do you, condemn them because they are probably satisified that the perpetrator of this inhumane crime, is now jailed for life? Are you concerned with the consequences of the little girl herself, later in life, when she feels like raising a family? You see the problem here is that probably no amount of psychological councelling and/or medical help, will ever change things for this little girl for the rest of her life.  My sympathies unashamedly lie with her, her parents and close family.

But on the other hand, in the view of a justice system in any reasonable society, it is not about revenge...it is about the simple fact that the person has commited a serious offence and jail has been desiganated by that system. For otherwise good people who have made a mistake but have got caught, it probably teaches them not to do it again. Sadly, most criminals are not good people who simply make mistakes.

 

I would guess in many cases, prison is a dehumanizing solution, but also in many cases, the perpetrators of violent, serious crime are already dehumanized evil animals. They will never be rehabilitated. Luckily in most reasonable democratic societies, we do have alternatives for less severe crimes, and first timers of petty crimes...things like suspended sentences, parole, home detention, ankle tracking bracelets, house arrests, etc....but hey! I have mentioned all that before.

[Peterkin]

8 minutes ago, beecee said:

Sorry, that's how a democratic society works, standing with the majority, rather then that noisy minority....

But the question wasn't : What's the current opinion of the majority in your country?

It was : What is justice?

[beecee]

17 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

But the question wasn't : What's the current opinion of the majority in your country?

It was : What is justice?

And that has been answered...many times.

But because you're a nice bloke, here is another definition......

https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/justice.htm

Justice

Justice is a concept of moral rightness based ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, equity and fairness, as well as the administration of the law, taking into account the inalienable and inborn rights of all human beings and citizens, the right of all people and individuals to equal protection before the law of their civil rights, without discrimination on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, color, ethnicity, religion, disability, age, wealth, or other characteristics, and is further regarded as being inclusive of social justice.

According to most contemporary theories of justice, justice is overwhelmingly important: John Rawls claims that "Justice is the first virtue of social institutions, as truth is of systems of thought."

Justice can be thought of as distinct from benevolence, charity, prudence, mercy, generosity, or compassion, although these dimensions are regularly understood to also be interlinked.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Adding of course, as I have said many times, no system is perfect and all the virtues of justice as defined are not always met. And of course any justice system is based on what a reasonable democratic society demands, which further supports what I said, about that's how a democratic society works, standing with the majority, rather then that noisy minority....eg: The dickheads that are  attempting to defy health orders during Sydney's and Melbourne's current lockdown, claiming violation of their personal rights and freedom of movement. Thankfully due to Police surveillence and intelligence, the ring leaders have been rounded up, and kept behind bars, some for 11 days so far, before their court appearences.

Edited September 2, 2021 by beecee

[Peterkin]

Some dickheads are very quiet - quietly pulling the strings above the stage where "democracy" plays out.

[dimreepr]

9 hours ago, beecee said:

No distraction at all, simply facts put to you that don't fit with your philosophy. And once again, pointing out another error in your thinking, I have never really said that your definition is wrong, just that it is unrealistic. A reasonable justice system does three main things...punish, protect and rehabilitate. Just as punishment can take many forms, so to is the degree of evil and inhumane acts parts of any society  may perpetrate. 

What error in thinking? 

" A reasonable justice system does three main things...punish, protect and rehabilitate."

I'm saying,  A good justice system only needs to protect and try to rehabilitate.

By arguing otherwise you're implying I'm wrong, you've yet to explain why.

9 hours ago, beecee said:

Sorry, that's how a democratic society works, standing with the majority, rather then that noisy minority....

That doesn't mean you have to think the same way as the majority, some call that noise, I prefer independent thinking.

9 hours ago, beecee said:

It's just rather sad that you seem to brush over the fact that it takes all kinds to make up a society, good, law abiding, religious, indifferent, incorridgibley  evil and inhumane....they all exist my friend, and while they all exist, we will need prisons for some of them.

I'm not brushing over anything, I'm flat out demanding that evil doesn't exist.

 

9 hours ago, beecee said:

A few facts for you. If you do the crime [serious] be prepared to do the time. Not sure who said that, but it is appropriate. Let me also comment on your philosophy that jailing anyone is about revenge. To some extent, you are probably right. Perhaps the little girl that was tied up, raped and tortured, by an animal that was given a lifeline and on parole, along with her poor parents, would be glad to see this excuse of humanity jailed. In their case, his probable dysfunctional upbringing, circumstances, and whatever he experienced in his childhood, matters not.

Quote

 

Imagine LJ has never had a candy bar, and his family just gets by with a little petty theft; if you punish him by making him stand in the corner and after he served his sentence you give him the candy bar, he's far more likely to learn that stealing only achieved him the pain of being singled out (in his mind he probably thinks the rest of the class is laughing at him).

What do you think he'll learn, if you also steal away his first ever chance eat a candy bar? 

Bearing in mind that his family has been teaching, theft is a necessary part of life; ergo he must get better at stealing...

 

Of course their history matters, if you have any hope of improving THE future (if not the perps).

[beecee]

43 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What error in thinking? 

" A reasonable justice system does three main things...punish, protect and rehabilitate."

I'm saying,  A good justice system only needs to protect and try to rehabilitate.

By arguing otherwise you're implying I'm wrong, you've yet to explain why.

Stop being so obtuse. I'm saying as you well know, that what you are dreaming of over the course of this topic, maybe admirable, but is unrealistic, unobtainable and naive to pretend it can ever come about.

43 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That doesn't mean you have to think the same way as the majority, some call that noise, I prefer independent thinking.

I'm thinking the way that my 77 years on this planet has manufactured me to think,  and that obviously is the same way the vast enlightened majority think in a democratic society.

43 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I'm not brushing over anything, I'm flat out demanding that evil doesn't exist.

You would be covered in egg if you were silly enough to demand evil does not exist. Your problem is believing that a softly softly "no prison" approach is viable or realistic in any and all circumstances. 

43 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Of course their history matters, if you have any hope of improving THE future (if not the perps).

History tells us that there will always be incorridgible evil violent people in society.

And those same people should be punished, and locked away for their inhumane deeds.

7 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Some dickheads are very quiet - quietly pulling the strings above the stage where "democracy" plays out.

Sounds like some nutty conspiracy crap to me. 

'scuse me now fellas, I have some Rugby League to watch! 😉

Edited September 3, 2021 by beecee

[dimreepr]

25 minutes ago, beecee said:

Stop being so obtuse. I'm saying as you well know, that what you are dreaming of over the course of this topic, maybe admirable, but is unrealistic, unobtainable and naive to pretend it can ever come about.

Why is it unrealistic, unobtainable and naive? 

Quote

While its security measures are not taken lightly, Otago provides its inmates with comfortable rooms, and attributes great significance to change through skill building. Holding classes in light engineering, dairy farming and cooking among other things, Otago strives to rehabilitate effectively.

 

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, beecee said:

You would be covered in egg if you were silly enough to demand evil does not exist.

It's a human construct often used as an escuse do "evil".

Besides it's not a very scientific answer to my demand, no evidence no counter argument, just gainsay and attempted ridicule.

 

Is a lion evil bc he brutally murder's all the children of a pride he takes over?

If the lionesses' use that as an excuse to brutally murder him, they're left with no chance of future children.

[beecee]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why is it unrealistic, unobtainable and naive? 

You already know the answer to that...It takes all kinds to make up a society, sadly some of that will almost certainly be cruel, violent inhumane animals that in reality do not deserve the time of day.eg: the monster I gave that  raped, tortured and ruined a little girl's life, while having been on parole. Not sure why I have to repeat it so many times.

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

 While its security measures are not taken lightly, Otago provides its inmates with comfortable rooms, and attributes great significance to change through skill building. Holding classes in light engineering, dairy farming and cooking among other things, Otago strives to rehabilitate effectively.

 And does it have a 100% success rate...and would they also be as leniant with some incorridigible monster as per my example...you know, the one that you reckoned should be put to death. 😉

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

It's a human construct often used as an escuse do "evil".

Besides it's not a very scientific answer to my demand, no evidence no counter argument, just gainsay and attempted ridicule.

 I have given you plenty of evidence and real life examples of inhumane, violent life destroying criminal acts, rather then your own attempts at ridicule with excerpts from Monty Python and philosophical banter. 

Here's a philosophical one in return, but far more realistic and appropo of what a reasonable democratic society sees as justice.

[dimreepr]

As Spike Milligan once said, "your facts are different from my facts"

[beecee]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

As Spike Milligan once said, "your facts are different from my facts"

Another comedian.

[dimreepr]

9 minutes ago, beecee said:

And does it have a 100% success rate...and would they also be as leniant with some incorridigible monster as per my example...

Please explain:

Why does it have to have a 100% success rate, to be better than what we have now?

And why not?

14 minutes ago, beecee said:

and would they also be as leniant with some incorridigible monster as per my example...you know, the one that you reckoned should be put to death.

Please don't paraphrase what I said, quote what i said.

But for the record, if he did what he did and can't be cured, maybe it's kinder to kill him; especially if he's in the type of prison your advocating...

11 minutes ago, beecee said:

Another comedian.

Many comedians have a philosophy too.

[beecee]

9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Please explain:

Why does it have to have a 100% success rate, to be better than what we have now?

And why not?

Because as long as there are animals in society that act inhumanely, and violently, they need to be locked up as they are now in most reasonable societies for the reasons I have given you a 100 times now.

12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Please don't paraphrase what I said, quote what i said.

But for the record, if he did what he did and can't be cured, maybe it's kinder to kill him; especially if he's in the type of prison your advocating...

If you want to kill him, that's OK with me. The final punishment! ☺️ My feelings and concerns are with the victims of his crimes, the ones you have barely ever mentioned..

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Many comedians have a philosophy too.

I'm not concerned with your Monty Python quips or any other comedian, nor with any bleeding heart, feel good system that treats inhumane violent criminals with a holiday resort. Your vice President has it correct, and I'm sure she also does not reject rehabilitation when and where appropriate and possible.

 

[TheVat]

@beecee -- as I was catching up,  I saw this bit in your posts.... 

Quote

I would guess in many cases, prison is a dehumanizing solution, but also in many cases, the perpetrators of violent, serious crime are already dehumanized evil animals. They will never be rehabilitated. 

While I agree with many of your ideas,  this struck me as a little facile.   The logic seemed on the order of saying "Pancreatic cancer patients are mortally ill.  Therefore we shouldn't be concerned about sterilizing their rooms or feeding them or supplying meds. "  

We have hospitals to make people well,  even if they sometimes fail.   If we determine as a society that prisons should be places of rehabilitation, then we don't want to  let them become harsh and cruel just because the rehab doesn't always succeed with every prisoner.   Or because some prisoners have acted cruelly.   

 

[dimreepr]

40 minutes ago, beecee said:

Because as long as there are animals in society that act inhumanely, and violently, they need to be locked up as they are now in most reasonable societies for the reasons I have given you a 100 times now.

Your emotions are an excuse, not a reason.

42 minutes ago, beecee said:

My feelings and concerns are with the victims of his crimes, the ones you have barely ever mentioned..

All I've suggested is, criminal's are often victim's too...

How does it help the victim in your case, if we ignore that fact?

 

[TheVat]

BTW, bit of confusion on @dimreepr location.   Beecee refers to Trump as dimeeper's former President,  and Kamala as his current veep,  but the profile puts him in UK?   Not terribly germane to the topic,  I was just curious.   

Edited September 3, 2021 by TheVat
Tpoy

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, TheVat said:

BTW, bit of confusion on @dimreepr location.   Beecee refers to Trump as dimeeper's President,  and Kamala as his veep,  but the profile puts him in UK?

I'm just a confused as you, but then we did vote for Boris...

[Peterkin]

In the reality of prison systems, there are further considerations beyond punishment. Being locked in a cage does not 'fit' any crime, except kidnapping. The only lesson incarceration teaches is: "We are  afraid of you." That's not something I particularly want to teach to an angry boy, growing into a bitter man behind bars. 

All crimes may have appropriate fitting punishments, but very few of those are ever tried.

For instance, parole is not an alternative to prison: it's just finishing the prison sentence outside in order to liberate prison space to punish somebody else. The aftermath of incarceration is often worse for the ex-convict that the prison sentence, because now he's expected to be independent, even though he isn't really free, doesn't have the rights of a citizen, can't fit into a community, isn't accepted, isn't hired for a decent job; can't be respected or useful or happy. Which explains the recidivism rate: we are taking individual law-breakers and turning them into career criminals.

(No, not the depraved 0.1% of criminals that belong in a maximum security hospital, but the 99.9% who commit rational or impulsive ordinary crimes.)    

Edited September 3, 2021 by Peterkin

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

I'm not concerned with your Monty Python quips or any other comedian, nor with any bleeding heart, feel good system that treats inhumane violent criminals with a holiday resort. Your vice President has it correct, and I'm sure she also does not reject rehabilitation when and where appropriate and possible.

 

[beecee]

7 hours ago, TheVat said:

@beecee -- as I was catching up,  I saw this bit in your posts.... 

While I agree with many of your ideas,  this struck me as a little facile.   The logic seemed on the order of saying "Pancreatic cancer patients are mortally ill.  Therefore we shouldn't be concerned about sterilizing their rooms or feeding them or supplying meds. "  

We have hospitals to make people well,  even if they sometimes fail.   If we determine as a society that prisons should be places of rehabilitation, then we don't want to  let them become harsh and cruel just because the rehab doesn't always succeed with every prisoner.   Or because some prisoners have acted cruelly.   

 

The point is, and the point that so far has been ignored by others, it really only applies to a small number, but still a number large enough to warrent prisons. For the petty criminal, the first timer etc, we have methods of attempted rehabilitation, from parole to house arrests and suspended sentences. If we look into it properly, the greater part of what makes a prison dehumanizing, are the inmates. In that regard, I support some segregation, keeping the first timers, kids, petty criminals from the rest of the inmates.

Your analogy imo fails because in your situation a terminally ill person is in most cases not to blame for his condition...his condition was not caused by his cruelty to others, or by wronging society.

Also we have in NSW more then one case where parole, and/or suspended sentencing, has led to that person reoffending That in essence ruins it for others, and the parole/prison boards etc, are then less inclined to grant leniancy or other attempts at rehabilitation to others that maybe deserving. I would suggest similar would also apply elswhere.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Your emotions are an excuse, not a reason.

Not emotions, facts, that you are ignoring.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

All I've suggested is, criminal's are often victim's too...

How does it help the victim in your case, if we ignore that fact?

Yes, and many others have been in the same "victim"circumstances, and rise above it. But again, for the umpteenth time, we do have less severe methods to deal with first and/or even second timers and petty criminals. You seem to be rather discriminatory in what you are reading in my posts, or probably what you are ignoring. Perhaps we need to agree to disagree. I'll stick with my factual situations [and there are thousands of examples if I chose to list] and you stick to your philosophy.

7 hours ago, TheVat said:

BTW, bit of confusion on @dimreepr location.   Beecee refers to Trump as dimeeper's former President,  and Kamala as his current veep,  but the profile puts him in UK?   Not terribly germane to the topic,  I was just curious.   

I'm not really in the habit of checking out profiles, although in some circumstances I do. 

[dimreepr]

13 hours ago, beecee said:

The point is, and the point that so far has been ignored by others, it really only applies to a small number, but still a number large enough to warrent prisons.

No one has suggested otherwise, even the video I posted "A world without prison's" included prison.

13 hours ago, beecee said:

For the petty criminal, the first timer etc, we have methods of attempted rehabilitation, from parole to house arrests and suspended sentences.

Then why are there so many of them in prison?

13 hours ago, beecee said:

Not emotions, facts, that you are ignoring.

I'm ignoring you, not your anecdotes, when you present actual evidence of evil 'people', I will listen very carefully.

13 hours ago, beecee said:

Yes, and many others have been in the same "victim"circumstances, and rise above it.

That assumes that the playing field is level, he can rise above it why can't you.

You're taking free will, way to literally, even your diet affects the range of freedom you have to make a decision.

I study I heard on the radio said "the gut biome of an anxious rat, was given to a brave rat and it became anxious."

I think you'll find you have a much tighter range of freedom than you think you have. 

14 hours ago, beecee said:

Perhaps we need to agree to disagree. I'll stick with my factual situations [and there are thousands of examples if I chose to list] and you stick to your philosophy.

I'm just asking you for a little more rigor in your thinking about what a fact is.

Why is a Lion, "not evil" for brutally murdering and devouring children, but a Human is evil?