What is Justice?

[beecee]

Another picture of justice being done, thankfully.......

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-18/qanon-shaman-jacob-chansley-jailed-over-us-capitol-riots/100629288

The so-called "Qanon Shaman" has been sentenced to almost three and a half years in prison for his role in the US Capitol riots on January 6.

The so-called "Qanon Shaman" has been sentenced to almost three and a half years in prison for his role in the US Capitol riots on January 6.

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

You will also, quite evidently keep dredging up this one horrific crime on which you seem to be fixated, and I will continue to address the issue, as

Certainly, as it occured in my own back yard.

2 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

rather than the case you keep quoting as if it were the only example.

That's the problem, it is far from an isolated example, and similar deplorable violence takes place everyday around the world...and some of those cases I have already mentioned throughout this thread.

4 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

If you wanted to discuss the theory and practice of parole as it relates to the dispensation of justice in general, I'm willing to do that. If you just want to keep citing this particular failure of the parole system, without addressing the principle,  purpose, board selection and statistical results of parole in various social contexts, go ahead; I have nothing to add to it.   

Again, you have danced around what I have been suggesting. Let me recap it for you...(1) Most justice systems all allow for possible rehabilitation and sympathy for the instigator of a crime/s. (2) Examples of those are house arrests, community services, parole, ankle bracelets, non custodial sentences, educational courses, counseling, etc, (3) On many of those occasions when reahbilitaion and/or sympathy is shown, it ( as in the case I present) is thrown back into the face of society.

In fact there are so many examples of that abusing and/or taking advantage of the system, that  there is now movement where I come from to tighten and make more difficult the many examples of rehabilitation processes that do exist in the justice system. Which of course makes it harder for the younger criminal and first timer, to receive any just sympathy or rehabilitation processes.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/high-reoffending-rates-cast-doubt-on-parole-system-20060218-gdmzt7.html

High reoffending rates cast doubt on parole system:

https://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Pages/bocsar_media_releases/2014/mr_cjb178.aspx

Parole Supervision and Re-offending

New research by the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research has found strong evidence that offenders released from prison on parole are less likely to re-offend than offenders released from prison without any supervision.

The Bureau identified 2,019 offenders released from prison under parole supervision, matched them with 2,019 very similar offenders released from prison without parole, and then followed them up to see which group was more likely to re-offend.

The Bureau found that, 12 months after release, 48.6 per cent of the unsupervised offenders had re-offended, compared with 43.6 per cent of the supervised offenders. At 36 months, the comparative rates of re-offending were 70.3 per cent for the unsupervised group and 65.7 per cent for the supervised group.

more at link....................

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On another point I will raise at this time  with reference to a bloke that escaped from prison in NSW 30 years ago [hewas serving 3 years and was in for growing  marijuana] In that time he has been a model citizen, flying below the radar and avoiding capture for those 30 years. Due to covid, he lost his job and was sleeping on the beach, so decided to give himself up.

the story here....https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/09/15/australian-prison-escapee-turns-himself-30-years-later-covid/8350204002/

CANBERRA, Australia – A 64-year-old fugitive walked into a Sydney police station to give himself up almost 30 years after he used a hacksaw blade and bolt cutters to escape from prison, police said on Wednesday.

Darko Desic decided to go back to prison because Sydney’s COVID-19 lockdown made him jobless and homeless, media reported.

Desic surrendered at Dee Why Police Station at Sydney’s fashionable northern beaches on Sunday morning and was denied bail when he appeared in a downtown court on Tuesday charged with escaping from lawful custody in 1992, a police statement said. The charge carries a potential seven-year prison sentence.

Sydney’s lockdown, which began in June, had cost Desic his cash-in-hand work as a laborer and handyman, unnamed police sources told Sydney’s The Daily Telegraph and Australian Broadcasting Corp.

“He slept on the beach on Saturday night and said: ‘Stuff it, I’ll go back to prison where there’s a roof over my head,’” a source told the newspaper.

more at link....

extract:

Born in the former Yugoslavia, Desic told police he escaped because he thought he would be deported once he had served his sentence, the newspaper reported. He feared he would be punished for failing to do his compulsory military service in his former country, which has since broken into several nations.

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He was so thought of in his local Northern beach community, that there is now a petition circulating that he be immdiatley released, and be granted full citizenship. I signed that petition.

Just an example of a worthwhile scenario where sympathy needs to be applied. He is yet to go to court, but I'm pretty sure that deserved leniency and sympathy will be applied.

Would you like anymore cases that illustrate where and when rehabilitiative processes have been abused and taken advantage of, or alternatively, where leniency should and most likely will be applied?

Or perhaps you would like to give your own examples and links, to support your own philosophy and where that has ever worked exclusively?

[StringJunky]

58 minutes ago, beecee said:

Another picture of justice being done, thankfully.......

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-18/qanon-shaman-jacob-chansley-jailed-over-us-capitol-riots/100629288

The so-called "Qanon Shaman" has been sentenced to almost three and a half years in prison for his role in the US Capitol riots on January 6.

The so-called "Qanon Shaman" has been sentenced to almost three and a half years in prison for his role in the US Capitol riots on January 6.

 

At least he dressed up for the part. 

[beecee]

45 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

At least he dressed up for the part. 

It's really hard to imagine that anything like him/it could actually be allowed to run wild!

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Again, you have danced around what I have been suggesting.

I believe I addressed some of your suggestions on or about Page 1, and I dislike repetition.

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Let me recap it for you...(1) Most justice systems all allow for possible rehabilitation and sympathy for the instigator of a crime/s. (2) Examples of those are house arrests, community services, parole, ankle bracelets, non custodial sentences, educational courses, counseling, etc, (3) On many of those occasions when reahbilitaion and/or sympathy is shown, it ( as in the case I present) is thrown back into the face of society.

Okay, that's an issue, rather than an anecdote. You have a problem with the criminal justice system. So do I, particularly parole boards, and for a number or reasons. I'm also aware of some of the difficulties in the way of reform. 

1. Sympathy is not essential to rehabilitation: counselling, job-training, supervision and gradual reintegration are. If done well, even with limited resources, it is successful to some degree. Not trying is 100% guaranteed to fail.

2. I can't see a net gain in treating all violators of every law harshly. That's how we got people clogging up the prisons for 5 or 10 years, because they were caught with a baggie of marijuana (or had it planted on them by police, which is not unheard-of) or resisted having their heads busted by police in a protest. This caused a severe strain on the prison system, and various half-assed efforts to abbreviate sentences for property crime, or make alternative to custodial arrangements for non-violent first offenders, etc. Some of those efforts were successful; some failed; a few backfired. Several factors must be considered when investigating the reason. One reason for different outcomes was the way sentencing was mandated and the protocol whereby decisions were made, and even, I'm sorry to say, magistrates' prejudices and self-interest. Another factor is the community's reaction to having a delinquent in its midst. A good deal of the difference in outcomes is uneven resource distribution. At the center of every situation are two major factors: social attitude and money. 

3. By thrown back into the face, you mean a criminal goes on being criminal despite efforts to rehabilitate him or her. Fair enough; recidivism is a fact. So is a percent of intractable psychopathy and sociopathy, that goes unrecognized. This is true of prison populations as well as the population at large.

You have, several times, advocated "lock them up and throw away the key." The problem with that 'solution' is you can't just throw away the key, unless it's to a crypt. In a prison, the key is entrusted to human beings, who are tasked with protecting society from the inmates, the inmates from another, the inmates from society, themselves and their families from the inmates, and their friends and families. They spend their working shifts inside a prison, in the same atmosphere as their charges. What’s the psychological cost of that work? What toll does it take on the custodians’ home and social life? They’re fallible human beings, capable of forming personal attachments, falling under influences, losing control of their tempers, enacting private agendas and exercising favouritism, being tempted by bribes or intimidated by threats. It’s a fragile system, at best; the more complicated, the more subject to unforeseen stress and error. Enlarging it is fraught with hazard. Privatization is courting disaster. As things stand, a large percentage of American citizens are already living the half-life of ex convicts – never fully a citizen again – which is one major factor in recidivism and disaffection. To me, it seems the wrong direction.

Whatever reforms of the penal system might yield better results than past or current practice, the penal mentality seems as incorrigible as hardened career felons. If prevention is not a made priority and given the forethought, social organization, early intervention and resources it requires, then reform is the best you can hope for. Toughening, relaxing, amending, tweaking, plugging – not entirely useless, but not very effective, either.  

If you want a 100% reassurance that a lawbreaker will never re-offend, bring back hanging for petty theft from age 8 up - kill 'em before they can do any real harm. If you want a better justice system, keep trying one idea after another, developing and refining methods that work, dropping the ones that fail and trying something else. Harping endlessly on failure does nobody any good – it certainly does not help past victims or protect potential future victims.       

 

 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

At least he dressed up for the part. 

This is a case where US justice is more performative than anything else.   There is abundant evidence that he is mentally ill and his condition allowed others to use him as a tool for their ends.  Interesting that the Far Right plotters would make a mentally ill man their standard bearer.  He would be better off in treatment rather than a cage,  but that doesn't satisfy the felt need to make prominent examples.   

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, TheVat said:

This is a case where US justice is more performative than anything else.   There is abundant evidence that he is mentally ill and his condition allowed others to use him as a tool for their ends.  Interesting that the Far Right plotters would make a mentally ill man their standard bearer.  He would be better off in treatment rather than a cage,  but that doesn't satisfy the felt need to make prominent examples.   

In the case of this chap, I agree. Also, his contrition seems genuine and the judge said as much. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

15 hours ago, beecee said:

Yeah, I'll stick with obtuseness.

I'm sensing a patern...

Why are you so determined to be correct; that every question you can't answer must mean, the questioner is stupid?

[beecee]

19 hours ago, Peterkin said:

If you want a 100% reassurance that a lawbreaker will never re-offend, bring back hanging for petty theft from age 8 up - kill 'em before they can do any real harm.

A great example of going from the sublime to the ridiculious.

19 hours ago, Peterkin said:

If you want a better justice system, keep trying one idea after another, developing and refining methods that work, dropping the ones that fail and trying something else. Harping endlessly on failure does nobody any good – it certainly does not help past victims or protect potential future victims. 

 

The failure in the main is intractible criminals re-offending when shown leniency and attempts at rehabilitation.

 https://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Pages/bocsar_media_releases/2014/mr_cjb178.aspx

http://www.paroleauthority.nsw.gov.au/Documents/CJB178.pdf

 

You go on about attempts at improving what we have.  Most justice systems all allow for possible rehabilitation and sympathy for the instigator of a crime/s. (2) Examples of those are house arrests, community services, parole, ankle bracelets, non custodial sentences, educational courses, counseling, etc, (3) On many of those occasions when reahbilitaion and/or sympathy is shown, it ( as in the case I present) is thrown back into the face of society.

In fact there are so many examples of that abusing and/or taking advantage of the system, that  there is now movement where I come from to tighten and make more difficult the many examples of rehabilitation processes that do exist in the justice system. Which of course makes it harder for the younger criminal and first timer, to receive any just sympathy or rehabilitation processes.

19 hours ago, TheVat said:

 There is abundant evidence that he is mentally ill and his condition allowed others to use him as a tool for their ends.  Interesting that the Far Right plotters would make a mentally ill man their standard bearer. 

Yes, obviously he is/was being used. And I would also suggest he will/should be receiving treatment while in prison. That photo btw, was sent to me and is obviously something from your Democratic party.

 

 

[beecee]

John F. Kennedy once said, “Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.” But change for change's sake can be more damaging to your efforts towards creating an engaged and inspired workforce than no change at all.

Our system of justice is not perfect, and as I have shown on other issues, if evidence is forthcoming, that I am wrong in my view of what justice should entail, I will consider and accomadate that view/philosophy. That has been far from the case though in this thread, or those of a similar vane. The first consideration when implementing justice is without question the vicitm and society. The second is to re-enforce the fact that in that society it is wrong and appropriate punishment to attempt to deter from any re- offending. The third is attempts at rehabilitation, particularly and irrefutably desirable with your first timer offenders. That is what the vast greater majority see as justice, and just as obvious as why mainstream science, is mainstream science.

There are evil criminals in society that will always take advantage of attempts at rehabilitation and leniency. That is another irrefutable fact. These are the ones where locking them up and throwing away the key is entirely appropriate. What about if they are mentally ill, I hear someone ask? How do we tell a mentally ill person from an evil person is my reply. What physiological and/or psychological opinions can honestly and reasonably answer this?

Military orginizations, police forces, and such are sadly, 100% necessary because of the diversity in society of the good, the evil...Many people that have had ideal upbringings can also be evil....many people with troubled, dysfunctional upbringings turn out as model citizens. 

 I try and always see things with reality in mind, and with compassion ready to give if required and irrespective of what being left or right of the political spectrum, says I should be. A reason why I reject the labeling of Atheist, when essentially, imo anyway, I try and follow that which makes the most sense. I prefer practical evidenced based reasoning and examples over philosophical jargon. I certainly at this time see no reason to change that view, either here, or in the atheist thread, despite a couple of downvotes.

In saying all that, I will leave this philosophical thread and concentrate on the sciences, or at least those that are within my capabilities. Best of luck to those trying to santise society.

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, beecee said:

You go on about attempts at improving what we have. 

Only because I see little hope of changing what we have for what we ought to have.

[beecee]

2 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Only because I see little hope of changing what we have for what we ought to have.

Have you ever considered you maybe wrong? Wrong in what we ought to have, for the reasons given.

Apologies, damn, I was going to leave this.

[Peterkin]

14 minutes ago, beecee said:

Have you ever considered you maybe wrong?

Yes.

[beecee]

"Justice is the constant and perpetual will to allot to every man his due." Ulpian.

 

 "At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."

-Aristotle.

 

"Peace and justice are two sides of the same coin."

- Dwight D. Eisenhower.

[dimreepr]

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-politics/

Socrates attests that akrasia does not exist, claiming "No one goes willingly toward the bad"

[dimreepr]

"I am justified. For I chose wisdom and the knowledge of good and evil; and now there is no evil; and wisdom and good are one. It is enough.“ —  George Bernard Shaw

 

[beecee]

On 11/19/2021 at 6:59 AM, beecee said:

In fact there are so many examples of that abusing and/or taking advantage of the system, that  there is now movement where I come from to tighten and make more difficult the many examples of rehabilitation processes that do exist in the justice system. Which of course makes it harder for the younger criminal and first timer, to receive any just sympathy or rehabilitation processes.

Example of that in tonight's news with regards to further tightening and upgrading Australia's toughest maximum security prison, for the incorridgibles and worst crimes......

.....https://www.fairfieldchampion.com.au/story/7520608/goulburns-supermax-nsw-jail-expanded/

Australia's most secure prison has been given a multi-million dollar high-tech upgrade to keep NSW's most dangerous prisoners secure and isolated from other inmates.

NSW Counter Terrorism and Corrections Minister Anthony Roberts said Goulburn's Supermax prison expansion was a $47 million investment in countering terrorism and violent extremism.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/first-look-inside-new-goulburn-supermax-prison-upgrades-new-south-wales/4796326a-bee4-4ff3-9e45-84cdcd53835d

The exercise yards are enclosed with mesh.  to prevent drone drops.

The upgrade includes a new walk through metal sector and other security management systems.

Each prisoner is monitored by three guards and each cell has a private exercise yard to prevent interaction between inmates.

more at link..................

 

 

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, beecee said:

Example of that in tonight's news with regards to further tightening and upgrading Australia's toughest maximum security prison, for the incorridgibles and worst crimes......

.....https://www.fairfieldchampion.com.au/story/7520608/goulburns-supermax-nsw-jail-expanded/

Australia's most secure prison has been given a multi-million dollar high-tech upgrade to keep NSW's most dangerous prisoners secure and isolated from other inmates.

NSW Counter Terrorism and Corrections Minister Anthony Roberts said Goulburn's Supermax prison expansion was a $47 million investment in countering terrorism and violent extremism.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/first-look-inside-new-goulburn-supermax-prison-upgrades-new-south-wales/4796326a-bee4-4ff3-9e45-84cdcd53835d

The exercise yards are enclosed with mesh.  to prevent drone drops.

The upgrade includes a new walk through metal sector and other security management systems.

Each prisoner is monitored by three guards and each cell has a private exercise yard to prevent interaction between inmates.

more at link..................

 

 

An example of outlier's that can't be taught or corrected, is an excuse to brush every criminal/them under the carpet, and a reason for Hitler to kill so many people.

Justice is about how you'd want to be treated; if you accidentally become a criminal.

[Intoscience]

So, what justice should be served for the atrocity recently committed by Darrel Brooks in the Wisconsin parade killings?

This criminal allegedly had a long list of previous aggressive and violent crimes and was facing further charges while being released from jail 2 days earlier on bond. 

This is the sort of despicable monster that myself, Beecee and others are talking about. While others want us to feel sorry for such an animal, give him chances over and over for "rehabilitation". 

Yeah, well that worked out well didn't it? Many innocent people killed and injured. How many more incidents like this does it take before we wise up and realise that rehabilitation for everyone just doesn't work. 

Some people are just unfixable!!!

 

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

Yeah, well that worked out well didn't it? Many innocent people killed and injured. How many more incidents like this does it take before we wise up and realise that rehabilitation for everyone just doesn't work. 

Some people are just unfixable!!!

That's what's so puzzling with a couple here ( not all) no one is denying that a reasonable justice system should also focus on rehabilitation, and some compassion, particularly with young first timers...but when attempts of compassion and rehabilitation is thrown back in your face, or when horrific violent crimes are commited,  then its time to lock em up and throw away the key. Instead, we get political/philosophical driven crap about the victim and how its society's fault. 

[Intoscience]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

That's what's so puzzling with a couple here ( not all) no one is denying that a reasonable justice system should also focus on rehabilitation, and some compassion, particularly with young first timers...but when attempts of compassion and rehabilitation is thrown back in your face, or when horrific violent crimes are commited,  then its time to lock em up and throw away the key. Instead, we get political/philosophical driven crap about the victim and how its society's fault. 

+1

There seems to be this ongoing insistence on focusing on the rehabilitation and helping of the perpetrator, over the loss and suffering of the victims. Like you say now and previously, and I've mentioned many times over the course of this thread, no one is denying that rehabilitation should not be implemented/attempted (in the appropriate manner)!

However the priority should be and always should be (at the very least in the first instance) - protect the public - Unfortunately some of the criminals are going to fall victim to this, in that they may well have to incur incarceration for longer or worse. I have some sympathy for those that have made a mistake, or caught up in a situation that got them on a road to crime etc... These are the types that are most likely to be successfully rehabilitated. But, people like Darrel in the recent example of what I can only define as evil atrocity (no regard for innocent human life), should be at the very least locked away never to be released.

In my honest opinion, though I'm not a fan of the death penalty, in this example the death penalty would seem appropriate justice. Though I'm quite sure the families of the victims would rather see him suffer for the rest of his life, like they will now have no choice but to suffer their loss and pain for the rest of their lives!    

Edited November 23, 2021 by Intoscience

[dimreepr]

On 11/17/2021 at 1:47 PM, dimreepr said:

Absolutely, that's the priority...

And when he's behind bars, the priority shift's too, understanding why he did what he did.

We do that be removing the emotive language from the conversation and consider ourselves from his perspective...

Only when that conversation is understood, is justice done...

You must have missed this post.

Along with most of my other post's, including this my last...

22 hours ago, dimreepr said:

An example of outlier's that can't be taught or corrected, is an excuse to brush every criminal/them under the carpet, and a reason for Hitler to kill so many people.

Justice is about how you'd want to be treated; if you accidentally become a criminal.

 

[Intoscience]

38 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You must have missed this post.

Along with most of my other post's, including this my last...

 

Nope, I agree with you on this, though edited a bit (my italics)-

38 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Absolutely, that's the priority...

And when he's behind bars, the priority focus shift's too, understanding why he did what he did.

We do that be removing the emotive language from the conversation and consider ourselves from his perspective... 

Only when that conversation is understood, is justice can be done..

38 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

An example of outlier's that can't be taught or corrected, is an excuse to brush every criminal/them under the carpet, and a reason for Hitler to kill so many people.

Justice is about how you'd want to be treated; if you accidentally become a criminal, and how you should expect to be treated if you have/show no regard to human life and/or your victims.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Intoscience

[dimreepr]

32 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Nope, I agree with you on this, though edited a bit (my italics)-

 

 

Potatoes, potatoes... 😉

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

There seems to be this ongoing insistence on focusing on the rehabilitation and helping of the perpetrator, over the loss and suffering of the victims.

It's not either/or. It's both and. 

Some of us would prefer focusing on healing and improved health... address root causes instead of symptoms. It won't work in every case, but surely it will work in far more than we're trying today by simply locking people up.

For me, it's also a fiscal argument. If we're going to spend money, let's spend it on making people better, not on giving them free room and board and food for the rest of their lives. 

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

the priority should be and always should be (at the very least in the first instance) - protect the public -

Interestingly, rehabilitation does this, too. Much more so than punishment, IMO. Punishment comes AFTER the public has already been harmed by this individual, and tends often to let that individual continue harming the public after release. Rehab surely isn't perfect, but does absolutely reduce the chance of repeating the very public harm you and I both agree should be minimized. 

[dimreepr]

15 minutes ago, iNow said:

For me, it's also a fiscal argument. If we're going to spend money, let's spend it on making people better, not on giving them free room and board and food for the rest of their lives. 

It doesn't stop there, why not both?