dimreepr Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Intoscience said: Why is it that he only learns not to get caught stealing? I don't see how this is the inevitable outcome? Imagine LJ has never had a candy bar, and his family just gets by with a little petty theft; if you punish him by making him stand in the corner and after he served his sentence you give him the candy bar, he's far more likely to learn that stealing only achieved him the pain of being singled out (in his mind he probably thinks the rest of the class is laughing at him). What do you think he'll learn, if you also steal away his first ever chance eat a candy bar? Bearing in mind that his family has been teaching, theft is a necessary part of life; ergo he must get better at stealing... Every day is a lesson in life and every action has a consequence, we can never know now if it's going to be good or bad, that's why the past is best place learn about the present. It's far easier to damage society with punishment, if you don't understand the correct definition of punishment. And the odds are stacked against the majority of people getting the fact that most of them are wrong. Edited August 31, 2021 by dimreepr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 hours ago, beecee said: I'm describing a situation where the generous alternatives to a prison justice system, has been granted and failed miserably. And using that description as an excuse to justify your definition of punishment, I'm using it as a reason to try harder. Semantics are important, if you want to understand. “If you wish to strive for peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you wish to be a disciple of truth, then inquire.” — Friedrich Nietzsche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intoscience Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 hours ago, dimreepr said: Imagine LJ has never had a candy bar, and his family just gets by with a little petty theft; if you punish him by making him stand in the corner and after he served his sentence you give him the candy bar, he's far more likely to learn that stealing only achieved him the pain of being singled out (in his mind he probably thinks the rest of the class is laughing at him). What do you think he'll learn, if you also steal away his first ever chance eat a candy bar? Bearing in mind that his family has been teaching, theft is a necessary part of life; ergo he must get better at stealing... Every day is a lesson in life and every action has a consequence, we can never know now if it's going to be good or bad, that's why the past is best place learn about the present. It's far easier to damage society with punishment, if you don't understand the correct definition of punishment. And the odds are stacked against the majority of people getting the fact that most of them are wrong. A fair point and a nice perspective. I image, dimreeper, you are a caring and considerate person. I do think though that such a scenario you posted, is one that we would like to see or believe is the case every time, and one that most movie writers would use in their story line. However reality often isn't so dandy and there are many LJ's out there who have had decent upbringings (cared, loved and nurtured), wealthy, healthy and generally have no other excuse than they are just wired in such a way that they are inherently selfish. I have been witness to exactly this and have mentioned it earlier in previous posts. I think all of us on this thread really want the same outcome, but have either similar or very different views on how that outcome can be achieved. I think some of us want to shoot first and ask questions after, others somewhere in between and others who want to keep asking questions until they get shot themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 6 minutes ago, Intoscience said: A fair point and a nice perspective. I image, dimreeper, you are a caring and considerate person. No, like I've said before, I'm selfish... I can't steal your happiness/contentment (unless you let me), I have to find it myself; and if I can't, hopefully you'll let me share yours... 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intoscience Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 18 minutes ago, dimreepr said: No, like I've said before, I'm selfish... I can't steal your happiness/contentment (unless you let me), I have to find it myself; and if I can't, hopefully you'll let me share yours... 😉 I think everyone is selfish to a degree, it's which level of the vary degrees that determines a person's status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, Intoscience said: I think everyone is selfish to a degree, it's which level of the vary degrees that determines a person's status. I can't steal contentment from you, and make it my own. But I can steal contentment from you, because you denied me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 5 hours ago, dimreepr said: I can't steal contentment from you, and make it my own. But I can steal contentment from you, because you denied me... That may just be the answer to a large percentage of crime in our times. Property damage, malicious mischief, joyriding, reckless endangerment, vandalism, arson. Much of that kind of crime is retaliatory: people who are or feel deprived of something, feel unfairly treated, abused, cheated, betrayed. Discontented - and determined to share with their discontent with those who have wronged them, or who they have been told are responsible, or those who benefit from the wrong done to them, or even, unreasoningly, those who appear to be content when they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, dimreepr said: And using that description as an excuse to justify your definition of punishment, I'm using it as a reason to try harder. But it's not my definition of punishment. It's a definition of appropriate punsishment, in line with a reasonable westernised justice system and society. It's a philosophical stance by a justice system in any reasonable society, when anyone in that society crosses the line to indulge in violent, cruel inhuman behaviour, and that they deserve punishment befitting the crime, that they need to be separated from that society, for the protection of that society, and that all means available be implemeted to try and rehabilitate. You wanting and/or insistng to try harder in the rehabilitation phase is admirable and it would be ideal and great to see you succeed. But as sure as the Sun will rise tomorrow, that will never be 100% successful. 2 hours ago, Peterkin said: That may just be the answer to a large percentage of crime in our times. Property damage, malicious mischief, joyriding, reckless endangerment, vandalism, arson. Much of that kind of crime is retaliatory: people who are or feel deprived of something, feel unfairly treated, abused, cheated, betrayed. Discontented - and determined to share with their discontent with those who have wronged them, or who they have been told are responsible, or those who benefit from the wrong done to them, or even, unreasoningly, those who appear to be content when they are not. Yes that's rather sad to see in any society, and a shame we cannot all start from the same scratch mark in our lives and what we do with that life. And again, many people, are faced with situations, where they have been wronged by society and unfairly treated, but still rise above it. Your's and Dimreeper's hearts are probably in the right place, and no one has really argued against the system you both would like established, but it just isn't feasible or possible with the variables in human society. Edited August 31, 2021 by beecee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 hours ago, beecee said: Your's and Dimreeper's hearts are probably in the right place, and no one has really argued against the system you both would like established, but it just isn't feasible or possible with the variables in human society. Interesting judgment on something you presume that I "would like established". Can you describe the system I would like established? I know I haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 52 minutes ago, Peterkin said: Interesting judgment on something you presume that I "would like established". Can you describe the system I would like established? I know I haven't. Why don't you sum it up for me. I'm probably wrong anyway, but one can only go on what has been said previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 26 minutes ago, beecee said: Why don't you sum it up for me Because I haven't proposed a system. I proposed social, economic and administrative reforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 1 hour ago, beecee said: Why don't you sum it up for me. I'm probably wrong anyway, but one can only go on what has been said previously. I stand corrected. 🙄 All you have done is propose a new social, economic and administrative reforms. best of luck with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 2 hours ago, beecee said: All you have done is propose a new social, economic and administrative reforms. best of luck with that! Not a new reform; the same ones progressives have been proposing since the beginning of civilization. The same ones that, to the degree and extent they've been implemented, some nations became more reasonable, equitable and enjoyable than others. If you say we have reached the limit of improvement, you're probably right. After all, it was mere philosophizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Peterkin said: After all, it was mere philosophizing. Maybe for you… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted September 1, 2021 Author Share Posted September 1, 2021 14 hours ago, beecee said: Your's and Dimreeper's hearts are probably in the right place, and no one has really argued against the system you both would like established, but it just isn't feasible or possible with the variables in human society. I don't see why not; we've managed to stop dunking witches in pond's. Besides there's plenty of historical examples of society radically changing for the better; the founding father's had a good stab at it, it's not their fault their blueprint has been cynically manipulated to make criminality a commodity; I suggest we start there at least in the UK/USA. I've no idea about Australia, but at least they've stopped victimising Aboriginal's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, dimreepr said: I don't see why not; we've managed to stop dunking witches in pond's. Besides there's plenty of historical examples of society radically changing for the better; the founding father's had a good stab at it, it's not their fault their blueprint has been cynically manipulated to make criminality a commodity; I suggest we start there at least in the UK/USA. I never said we can never improve, only that you there will always be the need for prison and punishment, protection of victim and society and rehabilitation. 7 minutes ago, dimreepr said: I've no idea about Australia, but at least they've stopped victimising Aboriginal's. No not completely, improvent in that area also necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted September 1, 2021 Author Share Posted September 1, 2021 14 hours ago, beecee said: But it's not my definition of punishment. It's a definition of appropriate punsishment, in line with a reasonable westernised justice system and society. How is that, not your definition of punishment? The difference is the inclusion of punishment in your three point plan; mine means [1]punishment is not needed in a just society. As I've tried to explain throughout this thread, and you've yet to explain why I'm wrong. 14 hours ago, beecee said: when anyone in that society crosses the line to indulge in violent, [*cruel inhuman] behaviour, [and that they deserve punishment befitting the crime], that they need to be separated from that society, for the protection of that society, and that all means available be implemeted to try and rehabilitate. I've seem to have lost the strike-through feature, so I've used [] to indicated correction's in your statement; FTFY * how can they be inhumane, if the perp is human? 16 hours ago, Peterkin said: or even, unreasoningly, those who appear to be content when they are not. I'm not entirely sure I get your meaning, please elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intoscience Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 50 minutes ago, dimreepr said: How is that, not your definition of punishment? The difference is the inclusion of punishment in your three point plan; mine means [1]punishment is not needed in a just society. I don't see how a system would work without some form of "punishment", however the definition of punishment would require addressing, to be clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted September 1, 2021 Author Share Posted September 1, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Intoscience said: I don't see how a system would work without some form of "punishment", however the definition of punishment would require addressing, to be clear. Didn't I already address that? "the correct definition of punishment"... Edited September 1, 2021 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: 17 hours ago, Peterkin said: or even, unreasoningly, those who appear to be content when they are not. I'm not entirely sure I get your meaning, please elaborate. Human bahaviour is far more emotion-driven than we like to pretend. We very often (and some psychologists contend, always) act on a feeling and rationalize it later. The particular feeling I was referring to there is a mix of envy, frustration and resentment, which is rolled into a long, smouldering, generalized sense of grievance. Sometimes that feeling just boils over into action. The action is an impulsive lashing out. The rationale is: If I can't own the nice things those happy people have, at least I can spoil their enjoyment by breaking or defacing the nice things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted September 1, 2021 Author Share Posted September 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Peterkin said: Human bahaviour is far more emotion-driven than we like to pretend. We very often (and some psychologists contend, always) act on a feeling and rationalize it later. The particular feeling I was referring to there is a mix of envy, frustration and resentment, which is rolled into a long, smouldering, generalized sense of grievance. Sometimes that feeling just boils over into action. The action is an impulsive lashing out. The rationale is: If I can't own the nice things those happy people have, at least I can spoil their enjoyment by breaking or defacing the nice things. My point is, contentment can't be stolen but it can be shared; envy, frustration and resentment only steals from you, it doesn't effect me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intoscience Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: Didn't I already address that? "the correct definition of punishment"... Sorry I must have missed it, the link doesn't work for me sorry. I would be interested in reading it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 2 hours ago, dimreepr said: My point is, contentment can't be stolen but it can be shared; envy, frustration and resentment only steals from you, it doesn't effect me... Does if I smash your car! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, dimreepr said: How is that, not your definition of punishment? Because it's society's definition of punishment, [as part and parcel of a reasonable justice system] at least in any reasonable westernised society. 9 hours ago, dimreepr said: how can they be inhumane, if the perp is human?. This is actualy the second time I've asked this with regards to one of your questions/answers: Are you serious? I have given you in this and the torture thread, more then one example of inhumane or if you like inhuman actions. The most obvious one of course, and one which the overwhelmingly majority would agree with as being inhumane is Hitler. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/inhumane inhumane: cruel and causing suffering to people or animals: cruel to people or animals in not caring about their suffering or about the conditions under which they live: We have a responsibility to protect animals from inhumane treatment. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: or if you like...... https://www.google.com/search?q=inhuman&rlz=1C1RXQR_en-GBAU952AU952&sxsrf=AOaemvIaLT-WdQ78NJhofVlMS76weC-ztQ%3A1630529900201&ei=bOkvYdPUC-HWz7sP7tGAqA4&oq=inhuman&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBAgjECcyCgguELEDEIMBEEMyCggAELEDEIMBEEMyBAgAEEMyCggAELEDEIMBEEMyCwguEIAEELEDEIMBMgYIABAKEEMyBAgAEEMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDoHCCMQsAMQJzoHCAAQRxCwAzoHCC4QsAMQQ0oECEEYAFDLGljLGmC_H2gBcAJ4AIABoAGIAaABkgEDMC4xmAEAoAEByAEKwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjTuvyb1d7yAhVh63MBHe4oAOUQ4dUDCA8&uact=5 inhuman: lacking human qualities of compassion and mercy; cruel and barbaric. "the inhuman treatment meted out to political prisoners" 9 hours ago, dimreepr said: I've seem to have lost the strike-through feature, so I've used [] to indicated correction's in your statement; FTFY I'll repeat again as it should be and in its entirety.... But it's not my definition of punishment. It's a definition of appropriate punsishment, in line with a reasonable westernised justice system and society. It's a philosophical stance by a justice system in any reasonable society, when anyone in that society crosses the line to indulge in violent, cruel inhuman behaviour, and that they deserve punishment befitting the crime, that they need to be separated from that society, for the protection of that society, and that all means available be implemeted to try and rehabilitate. 10 hours ago, dimreepr said: I don't see why not; we've managed to stop dunking witches in pond's. Wasn't that a period in human society, where the church was the accuser, the judge, and the executioner? I reject the supernatural. You? Edited September 1, 2021 by beecee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 3 hours ago, beecee said: Wasn't that a period in human society, where the church was the accuser, the judge, and the executioner? At the time, it was also the standard reasonable western society. The word 'reasonable' does not have the self-same definition for every person, nation, culture and historical period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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