What is Justice?

[Peterkin]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:40 AM, TheVat said:

A lot of reform attempts are undermined simply due to the fact of being in prison,  a fairly corrupting and brutalizing ambience.  IMO,  more actual reform happens in community reentry programs,  halfway houses, etc where some kind of positive connections can take place and give some ex-felons a quasi-familial structure. 

Similarly, pretrial diversion programs,  which can get nonviolent persons (often first-time offenders) into a supportive community rather than prison,  make a difference and are documented successes.   They can help young people who made one bad choice not get locked into a crime lifestyle and not have a criminal record that severely harms job prospects.   They also save taxpayers a small fortune.  

Even more reform attempts, I think, are undermined by a thirst for revenge. You know the kind of attitude: Soft on crime. Coddling evildoers. Oh, sure, he invades your home and you send him to summer camp?  They don't deserve pity; they deserve hanging!

And that attitude quickly (not to say self-servingly) translates to underfunding of rehabilitation programs and privatizing prisons, so that saving money or making money take priority over rehabilitation.

Some programs do work - have always worked. https://web.connectnetwork.com/rehabilitation-for-inmates/

But nothing works if the program doesn't receive enough support.

There has to be a societal commitment, starting with government policy, including law enforcement, jurisprudence, a correctional facilities planned and structured around rehabilitation rather than punishment or mere containment, and community involvement.

Maybe some people are not fixable. I'd like to see an honest effort at trying to fix them before i came to that conclusion.

Even more, i would like to see an honest effort at not breaking them in the first place.

[dimreepr]

thid game

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

 

Maybe some people are not fixable. I'd like to see an honest effort at trying to fix them before i came to that conclusion.

Even more, i would like to see an honest effort at not breaking them in the first place.

Indeed.   Studies find measures of intelligence well below average in prison populations, which might point to early child development as a place to focus assistance and reduce breakage.   Better cognitive development through programs to stabilize home environment, improve nutrition, access early learning options,  not parking little ones in front of a tablet or TV, remediation of lead in plumbing and old paint surfaces,  better wages and benefits for single working parents so they don't have to work extra shifts and be absent from the home so much,  etc.   All that "ounce of prevention" stuff.     

[Intoscience]

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Maybe some people are not fixable. I'd like to see an honest effort at trying to fix them before i came to that conclusion.

Even more, i would like to see an honest effort at not breaking them in the first place.

I agree, that all attempts should be made to fix the person and even more importantly prevent the catalyst that contributed to them to commit atrocities in the first place. 

But here we have 2 separate problems, though possibly related in the vast majority of cases, they require 2 separate actions and approaches. 

You stop the leak first and foremost to prevent further damage. You then fix the leak where possible in the hope that its for the long term. You then look at ways to prevent the leak ever happening again. However you always remain prepared to deal with the next leak should it or another occur again. 

We can mostly agree that prevention is better than cure, but sometimes we haven't the knowhow or right tools to achieve this.  

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

Indeed.   Studies find measures of intelligence well below average in prison populations, which might point to early child development as a place to focus assistance and reduce breakage.   Better cognitive development through programs to stabilize home environment, improve nutrition, access early learning options,  not parking little ones in front of a tablet or TV, remediation of lead in plumbing and old paint surfaces,  better wages and benefits for single working parents so they don't have to work extra shifts and be absent from the home so much,  etc.   All that "ounce of prevention" stuff.     

+1

This is a step towards the prevention part, and should be the focus of the most investment. I'm sure we would see a reduction in violent crime and crime in general if this program was followed through, maintained and remain successful.  

But unfortunately it won't solve everything, there will always be a minority that just can't be fixed.  

Edited November 10, 2021 by Intoscience

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I am the madman that comes too early, and you are the athiest taking the piss; just because I'm a lone voice doesn't make me wrong.

Label all you like, and play the vicitm status as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that evil people exist, as I have illustrated many times.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

You've yet to explain, along with most of my questions, why a human can be evil but a dog can't. 

Stop telling porky pies. I have answered most of your questions, including about the dog. They just don't fit your weird life philosophy. 

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The video I posted "a world without prisons", a couple of time's, (which you ignored) was made by a criminologist, not some irrelevant philosophical "nut job"; at least listen to your own side.

One, two, or three criminologists do not a Summer make. While evil people, (many who have had their chance but throw it back into the face of justice) exist, so to should prisons.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

No one's denying that, but justice demand's that we're all given a chance.

You don't believe the arsehole in the example I gave was given a chance? He was out on payroll! Or have you forgotten? Here it is again....https://www.mygc.com.au/man-who-raped-7yo-girl-in-dance-studio-toilet-sentenced-to-life-in-prison/

Man who raped 7yo girl in dance studio toilet sentenced to life in prison:

 

A man who raped a seven-year-old girl in the bathroom of a Sydney dance studio will die in jail, after being sentenced to life behind bars over the horrific attack.

Convicted rapist Anthony Sampieri appeared in Downing Centre District Court on Wednesday, where he pleaded guilty to 10 charges including three counts of sexual intercourse with a child under 10.

The court heard the 56-year-old, who was out on parole at the time for raping an elderly woman, dragged the little girl into the men’s bathroom at the Kogarah dance studio in November, 2018.

Whilst in the locked cubicle, Acting Judge Paul Conlon said the man punched and bound the little girl before subjecting her to more than 40 minutes of terror, with some of it filmed on a mobile phone.

One of the parents, Nick Gilio, was slashed across the head and stabbed in the stomach after confronting the man. The court heard he is still recovering both physically and mentally following the incident.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

Now once and for all dimreeper, please explain to me why and how such a depraved monster should be given another chance, after he commited his ghastly crime while being given a chance. Please try and answer honestly. This of course as I have argued with you and your politics, is just one case that I am familiar with as it happened in Sydney. There are probably thousands, or tens of thousands similar  cases throughout the world. And while you are answering the question, try to imagine the life long effects on that poor little girl, and if that was your child. 

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

@beecee evil is a label (a blinker) an excuse to seek revenge, every human deserves to be given glasses before we label them blind.

No, not at all. beecee is simply facing reality, rather then sticking like glue to some  politically inspired religious nonsense and bleeding heart attitude with regards to an impossible santised world. 

And of course your usual misplaced accusation of "revenge"... I did not know this little girl, nor her family, nor anyone connected with the case. But after reading reports from reputable sections of the media, my sympathy kicked in for the little victim,  rather then some cult idealogy that feels for the evil perpetrator of this crime, that you seem to  hold dear to your heart.

 

Justice for all! particularly including justice for victims and criminal justice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

Justice, in its broadest sense, is the principle that people receive that which they deserve, with the interpretation of what then constitutes "deserving" being impacted upon by numerous fields, with many differing viewpoints and perspectives, including the concepts of moral correctness based on ethics, rationality, law, religion, equity and fairness.

4 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Even more reform attempts, I think, are undermined by a thirst for revenge. You know the kind of attitude: Soft on crime. Coddling evildoers. Oh, sure, he invades your home and you send him to summer camp?  They don't deserve pity; they deserve hanging!

Whoever said that? What they deserve is justice befitting the crime...was it the first time? Was violence commited against anyone? If for example it was their first brush with the law, and no violence was commited, then at least where I come from, he may be given home arrest for a period, some community servicing, or maybe a short prison sentence depending on circumstances. There would not be any hanging, I'm pretty sure! 😉

5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Some programs do work - have always worked. https://web.connectnetwork.com/rehabilitation-for-inmates/

But nothing works if the program doesn't receive enough support.

There has to be a societal commitment, starting with government policy, including law enforcement, jurisprudence, a correctional facilities planned and structured around rehabilitation rather than punishment or mere containment, and community involvement.

Agreed. We have those social commitments in Australia and I would think most westernised countries. Could they be improved? Certainly.

5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Maybe some people are not fixable. I'd like to see an honest effort at trying to fix them before i came to that conclusion.

Even more, i would like to see an honest effort at not breaking them in the first place.

While understanding and accepting your first sentence, yes agreed totally, and would certainly vote for anyone furthering and bettering such programs.

In saying that, yes, many of us are fortunate enough to have a reasonable upbringing with decent parents and not really "wanting" for too much. Yet we also understand that even in such idealistic fortunate upbringings, nothing is certain, and the result can still be a violent, troubled and evil person. By the same token those raised in poverty, broken families, violence etc, can also still turn out to be model, successful citizens. Others of course, the exact opposite. Yet all need to be given a chance to redeem themselves if offending against society. No one has ever argued against that.

[mistermack]

There's a program on TV tonight, called "released to kill" in the UK. In the trailer, they offered the statistic that one in five murders in the UK are carried out by people recently released from prison. They didn't offer a figure for the number carried out by people recently on probation, or people recently on another kind of non-custodial sentence like community service. But you can bet that it's of a similar nature. 

I know quite a few criminals, one lifelong friend who died recently was one of the biggest dealers in stolen goods in the area. He never did any prison time, even though he took part in the theft of an artic trailer full of expensive TVs, and was caught selling a very valuable stolen painting. 

He did his "community service" happily, he enjoyed it, he was the sociable type. And he never stopped dealing stolen goods for a second. He was addicted to it. And he was a very rich man when he died. 

Most of the other criminals just accept punishment when they get caught, and don't really fear it. They just laugh at the attempts at reforming them. They just tell the people in authority what they want to hear, and they are very good at doing that. 

My friend would have been chalked up as a success. He never got caught again. But he never stopped his criminal activities till he got too sick, at the very end. 

What stops me from being a criminal? Fear of getting caught. People like me wouldn't need the attempts to reform them. Just getting caught once would be once too much. Others just really don't give a toss. 

On TV last night, was an edition of "murder by the sea", which examined the case of Philip Manning. He was a vicious wife abuser, who got only four years for a truly vicious attempt to murder his wife. He only served just over two years, and when he got out, within a couple of months, he went to her house on Christmas eve, stabbed her new parner, and killed the ex-wife with a sawn-off shotgun. The only reason he waited two months was that it took him that long to get his hands on a gun. 

He must have convinced the parole board that he was truly reformed, otherwise why would they let out an attempted murderer out after only half of the paltry four year sentence? 

But of course, the parole boards can pass the buck, they act on the advice of the psychologist or psychiatrist, and they in turn are untouchable. 

If he had done the desultry four years he was given, his ex-wife would have had at least two more years of life. Maybe more, if the scumbag had died in jail.

Edited November 10, 2021 by mistermack
atroshus spellin

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

They didn't offer a figure for the number carried out by people recently on probation, or people recently on another kind of non-custodial sentence like community service. But you can bet that it's of a similar nature. 

I wouldn't bet. Certainly not without more factual information regarding what happens to people 1.  in prison 2.upon release from prison 3. on probation and 4. on community service. Especially in the case of non-custodial sentences, one must presume the offense was not violent and didn't pose a threat to anyone's safety and it seems unlikely that someone finishing that kind of sentence would suddenly turn homicidal.

 

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

He did his "community service" happily, he enjoyed it, he was the sociable type. And he never stopped dealing stolen goods for a second. He was addicted to it. And he was a very rich man when he died. 

Did he murder anyone?

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

Most of the other criminals just accept punishment when they get caught, and don't really fear it. They just laugh at the attempts at reforming them. They just tell the people in authority what they want to hear, and they are very good at doing that. 

That's a more interesting comment on the society than on the character of "criminals". It's always worth checking what kinds of crime are committed in what situations, as well as what normal behaviours are classed as criminal and what crimes are classed as business acumen.  

As for the wife-killer, that's a class by itself. Intense personal hatred is a thing apart from ordinary criminality for fun and profit or as a fall-back occupation for the unemployed. No institution can fix that in an isolated individual - it has to be resolved, if it can be resolved, between the two antagonists.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Peterkin

[mistermack]

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I wouldn't bet. Certainly not without more factual information regarding what happens to people

And yet you make all sorts of claims about the effectiveness of reform programs, without posting a scrap of evidence. Which is repeated by other do-gooders all the time. Always without evidence, except anecdotes that are highly suspect. My own anecdotes from my own life on the other hand, can be dismissed. 

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Did he murder anyone?

He wouldn't tell me if he did. But I wouldn't put it past him. I do know that he had somebody badly beaten and put in hospital, as revenge for himself being beaten up and robbed in a home invasion. A nice crowd. 

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Especially in the case of non-custodial sentences, one must presume the offense was not violent and didn't pose a threat to anyone's safety and it seems unlikely that someone finishing that kind of sentence would suddenly turn homicidal.

You are making the ludicrous assumption that the offence that they were convicted of is the only one they committed. In real life, convictions only represent a tiny proportion of an offenders crimes. If someone gets convicted it indicates that they regard the law as nothing more than an inconvenience.  Or that they have a serious drug habit that needs to be financed. Or both. And either way, they are FAR more likely to turn homicidal than the rest of us. 

Here's an interesting pdf : https://civitas.org.uk/content/files/whogoestoprison.pdf 

and it contains this paragraph : " Prolific criminals dominate the prison population 70% of custodial sentences are imposed on those with at least seven previous convictions or cautions, and 50% are imposed on those with at least 15 previous convictions or cautions. Any large reductions in the prison population would therefore mean far fewer prolific criminals going to prison." 

These are people who have been "rehabilitated" and "reformed" over and over again, and have a fortune spent on the process. I think that money would be better spent on hospitals and education, where we know that it does actually do some good.

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, beecee said:

Label all you like, and play the vicitm status as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that evil people exist, as I have illustrated many times.

I'm a sociopath and if I caught your rapist in the act I'd probably kill him just to make him stop, does that make me evil or a hero?

He's a very sick person, it would probably be kinder.

[dimreepr]

With my illness I could be taught to do anything you want, am I evil now?

[dimreepr]

If someone says you shouldn't question this, you've got to question it...

 

[Peterkin]

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

And yet you make all sorts of claims about the effectiveness of reform programs, without posting a scrap of evidence.

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=Effective+criminal+rehabilitation&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=young+offender+rehabilitation&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

https://www.trendwyoming.org/articles/proven-ways-to-reduce-recidivism/

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

Always without evidence, except anecdotes that are highly suspect.

Like this?

18 hours ago, mistermack said:

They didn't offer a figure for the number carried out by people recently on probation, or people recently on another kind of non-custodial sentence like community service. But you can bet that it's of a similar nature. 

 

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

You are making the ludicrous assumption that the offence that they were convicted of is the only one they committed.

Should I make the assumption instead that everyone convicted of a misdemeanour is also guilty of serious crime that wasn't prosecuted? Or maybe that there are no innocent people - only criminals who haven't been caught?

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

If someone gets convicted it indicates that they regard the law as nothing more than an inconvenience.

Or maybe that they were the wrong colour, walking down the wrong street. Or had the same name as somebody the police were looking for. Or it seemed like their least bad option. Or lots of reasons --- The Law is not infallible.

https://www.law.ac.uk/about/press-releases/wrongful-convictions/

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

Or that they have a serious drug habit that needs to be financed.

Sounds like a good opportunity for rehabilitation.

https://www.apa.org/research/action/aftercare

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

I think that money would be better spent on hospitals and education, where we know that it does actually do some good.

that' of course is what The Vat and I have been about in crime prevention. Improve social services at the lowest economic strata, and there won't be so many criminals.

  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047235220300623

More 'claims', more scraps of evidence. No TV shows, I'm afraid. 

[TheVat]

The example of extreme sexual predators often comes up,  since it is the most extreme test of any rehabilitative philosophy.   My impression is that such persons cannot be cured,  and some are so sick that a reasonable case for euthanasia could be made.   While I object to the death penalty for several reasons,  I would see someone raping a seven year old - as in @beecee example - as a candidate for euthanasia.   As for the parents,  I cannot imagine being them and not wanting the sick creature removed from the planet promptly.   We cannot argue moral principles of justice solely from the wishes of angry and traumatized parents,  but we can argue from the principle of mercy, both towards the perpetrator and the victims. 

[Peterkin]

It might also be of some value to note the incidence of particular kinds of extreme behaviour in relation to their socio-economic/cultural context. Such statistics might shed light on general root causes, which might be more fruitful to address than devising a final solution to individual instances.  

Bold to indicate that I'm not making unsubstantiated claims; just speculating.

I am, however, sniffing a similarity  to rat behaviour. (PDF)

[beecee]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I'm a sociopath and if I caught your rapist in the act I'd probably kill him just to make him stop, does that make me evil or a hero?

Why do you chose to be a sociopath to protect a little girl? Any decent citizen would do that instinctively...in fact with the case in question, one poor bloke got stabbed for trying to stop this animal.

.

On 11/11/2021 at 2:15 AM, Peterkin said:

Maybe some people are not fixable. I'd like to see an honest effort at trying to fix them before i came to that conclusion.

Even more, i would like to see an honest effort at not breaking them in the first place.

Agreed, but sadly.....

On 11/11/2021 at 6:09 AM, Intoscience said:

 But unfortunately it won't solve everything, there will always be a minority that just can't be fixed.  

 

[dimreepr]

17 hours ago, beecee said:

Why do you chose to be a sociopath to protect a little girl? Any decent citizen would do that instinctively...in fact with the case in question, one poor bloke got stabbed for trying to stop this animal.

Because I can't be sure which way my fight or flight switch will go, when faced with such a trauma and a very sick human holding a knife; and I consider myself a decent citizen, imagine how much I'd suffer if I ran away.

A sociopath doesn't have that switch.

Nor would he think he's evil, just a human/animal (he can't understand the difference) doing something very bad and should be stopped.

And he'd be equally happy to kill a pregnant mother or a small children if he was taught how bad they are.

Edited November 12, 2021 by dimreepr

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, TheVat said:

The example of extreme sexual predators often comes up,  since it is the most extreme test of any rehabilitative philosophy.   My impression is that such persons cannot be cured,  and some are so sick that a reasonable case for euthanasia could be made.   While I object to the death penalty for several reasons,  I would see someone raping a seven year old - as in @beecee example - as a candidate for euthanasia.   As for the parents,  I cannot imagine being them and not wanting the sick creature removed from the planet promptly.   We cannot argue moral principles of justice solely from the wishes of angry and traumatized parents,  but we can argue from the principle of mercy, both towards the perpetrator and the victims. 

+1 A very neat synopsis.

[mistermack]

21 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Sounds like a good opportunity for rehabilitation.

Maybe you are blind to it, but there IS a huge rehab industry in the UK. But it doesn't work. Some poeple, like myself, use drugs when they are young and just grow out of it. I've never been rehabbed but I never use drugs and hardly ever use alcohol. But i was a big drinker and regular user in my youth. 

I believe that most of the successes claimed by the rehab industry are people just like me, who just grow away from over use. 

As far as your "evidence" goes, posting a load of links is not posting evidence. And most of it is links to papers by psychologists etc. People hugely biased pushing their own agenda. Who on the lucrative rehab industry is going to admit that it's all a waste of time and money? When their clients are constantly telling them how well they are doing just to advance their own parole chances.

It's not like the rehab industry comes free. Every penny spent on parole officers, psychiatrists and psychologists and lawyers could be spent instead on the health service, helping people who genuinely benefit from that spending.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, mistermack said:

It's not like the rehab industry comes free. Every penny spent on parole officers, psychiatrists and psychologists and lawyers could be spent instead on the health service, helping people who genuinely benefit from that spending.

Or it could be spent on prevention, like the poor; less poor = less crime and less sick people.

[mistermack]

20 hours ago, TheVat said:

some are so sick that a reasonable case for euthanasia could be made.   While I object to the death penalty for several reasons,  I would see someone raping a seven year old - as in @beecee example - as a candidate for euthanasia.

Are you joking? What's the difference between the death penalty and compulsory euthanasia? In any case, the biggest objection to the death penalty for me is the chance of killing an innocent person, and that chance grows enormously, when sexual offences are included. Since so many convictions involve consent, which is notoriously hard to prove, and so easy for a jury to get wrong, because a good liar is often much more convincing than a nervous shifty looking truth-teller. 

[studiot]

35 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Or it could be spent on prevention, like the poor; less poor = less crime and less sick people.

I get the impression from the News that the biggest crimes are committed by some of the most influential/richest/important people.

So it is neither true nor fair to conflate being poor and being a criminal.

[dimreepr]

23 minutes ago, studiot said:

I get the impression from the News that the biggest crimes are committed by some of the most influential/richest/important people.

So it is neither true nor fair to conflate being poor and being a criminal.

But it is more likely...

[mistermack]

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Or it could be spent on prevention, like the poor; less poor = less crime and less sick people.

I have nothing against helping the poor. I do doubt if it would have much effect on crime statistics in this country in the short or medium term. I would help the poor by providing them with a better health service, and higher wages and free travel to work and massively better education in the poorest areas.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

As far as your "evidence" goes, posting a load of links is not posting evidence. And most of it is links to papers by psychologists etc. People hugely biased pushing their own agenda. Who on the lucrative rehab industry is going to admit that it's all a waste of time and money? When their clients are constantly telling them how well they are doing just to advance their own parole chances.

You followed up all those links and determined that every scholar, legal council, law-enforcement agency, advocacy and support group and addiction research institution that compiled all those data is biased and unreliable.

In that case, you're right. There is not a scrap of evidence for anything.

1 hour ago, studiot said:

I get the impression from the News that the biggest crimes are committed by some of the most influential/richest/important people.

 

Because when one of the rich and influential finally get arrested after many decades of criminal activity on a huge scale, it's such a rare, special event that it fills up the news cycle. When a hundred petty thieves from the wrong side of town are rounded up routinely, it's not worth mentioning. But there is a connection between the two levels of crime.

Of course, I have no evidence for that, either.

Quote

So it is neither true nor fair to conflate being poor and being a criminal.

He wasn't, BTW. He was suggesting that if we alleviate some of the conditions that drive people to law-breaking, there would be less law-breaking. That would also apply at the rich/important/influential level, only eliminating the crime-generation there requires a different approach: regulation, oversight and enforcement.

In fact, let's try reversing the strategies for a while: better services for the poor; more policing of the rich, and see what effect that has on criminality. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Peterkin
incorrect attribution

[mistermack]

28 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

You followed up all those links and determined that every scholar, legal council, law-enforcement agency, advocacy and support group and addiction research institution that compiled all those data is biased and unreliable.

No, I treated your list of links with the disdain it deserves. If you want to make a point, quote from what you are citing, and give the link at the end. Don't expect me to do your spadework by just linking a load of psychologists claiming how good they are. 

The proof is on the ground. People re-offend, after all of the rehab treatment paid for at massive expense. And not just once, but five, ten, fifteen times, as in my actual quote, above, accompanied by it's link. And that matches exactly with the people I know, and have known down the years. Criminals are laughing at the system, behind their backs, and I know that from what they say, not what psychologists write. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by mistermack
the usyual