Two objects going [near] the speed at light(Relativity)

[fredreload]

Two object, yellow and red, is traveling close to the speed of light 3*10^8m/s, and the black circle is the space time that they perceive around them.

1st question. Are the two space time perceive by yellow and red two distinct space times?

2nd question. If they pass through each other(as the arrow shown), does the space time maintain their original identity after they pass through each other?

[swansont]

They are in different reference frames owing to their relative motion. Each will perceive length and time differently from the other. Assuming you haven't omitted other details, this is unchanged by "passing through" the other.

[fredreload]

If they are moving in the same direction of motion, would the reference frame stack though? It seems to me that the perceived reference frame has its own distinct identity.

[beecee]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

They are in different reference frames owing to their relative motion. Each will perceive length and time differently from the other. Assuming you haven't omitted other details, this is unchanged by "passing through" the other.

Hi swansont....If I understand the OP problem correctly, both probes are travelling at relativistic speeds towards one another? So I understand that each's own FoR sees time and space differently...each sees the other 's time as slower, correct? Now with the classical supposed "twin paradox" we are generally familair with,  the paradox is removed by the travelling twin actions [acceleration/de-acceleration]  correct? So he returns to Earth, younger then his stay at home twin. So how does this play out with the case of the OP, with both red and yellow travelling? Does/would the Doppler efect also be brought into play?

Sorry if I have complicated the issue any, just a observation that struck me.

Edited August 17, 2021 by beecee

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, beecee said:

Hi swansont....If I understand the OP problem correctly, both probes are travelling at relativistic speeds towards one another? So I understand that each's own FoR sees time and space differently...each sees the other 's time as slower, correct? Now with the classical supposed "twin paradox" we are generally familair with,  the paradox is removed by the travelling twin actions [acceleration/de-acceleration]  correct? So he returns to Earth, younger then his stay at home twin. So how does this play out with the case of the OP, with both red and yellow travelling? Does/would the Doppler efect also be brought into play?

Sorry if I have complicated the issue any, just a observation that struck me.

Yes, that's correct for the twins paradox but this problem as stated is not the twins paradox, and therefore the twins paradox should not be under discussion.

i.e. I answered the question that was asked, not some other question that was not asked.

52 minutes ago, fredreload said:

If they are moving in the same direction of motion, would the reference frame stack though? It seems to me that the perceived reference frame has its own distinct identity.

If they are moving at the same speed, they are at rest with respect to each other and therefore in the same frame. If they are not, then there is relative motion and they will not see length and time as being the same.

I don't know what you mean by "stack" or "perceived reference frame"

 

[fredreload]

22 minutes ago, swansont said:

I don't know what you mean by "stack" or "perceived reference frame"

O I get it, thanks for your reference sir, respect

[beecee]

8 hours ago, swansont said:

i.e. I answered the question that was asked, not some other question that was not asked.

If they are moving at the same speed, they are at rest with respect to each other and therefore in the same frame. If they are not, then there is relative motion and they will not see length and time as being the same.

Vinaka, that's what I was thinking.

[Sensei]

Moreover, you should use special relativity velocity addition formula instead of classical, if velocities are close to the speed of light:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity-addition_formula

[fredreload]

Alright, so you got an object going near the speed of light and he perceives the universe with a length close to zero like a contour around the object, but what is outside of this contour? What lies beyond this universe that is being rigored and everted? The future block universe? And once this future block universe gets everted by your perceived reference frame, what happens when you attempt to enter this everted universe? Will you get spits back out?

[swansont]

There is nothing we can interact with outside of the universe. It is inaccessible to us.

[fredreload]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

There is nothing we can interact with outside of the universe. It is inaccessible to us.

Ya, I have a flesh wound on the inside . Perhaps select a telescope? If we are not getting out then how long are we staying in this loop @@?

Edited August 26, 2021 by fredreload

[swansont]

36 minutes ago, fredreload said:

Ya, I have a flesh wound on the inside . Perhaps a telescope? If we are not getting out then how long are we staying in this loop @@?

Light doesn't leave or enter the universe. We are inside forever.

[fredreload]

44 minutes ago, swansont said:

Light doesn't leave or enter the universe. We are inside forever.

That is why we need science?

[swansont]

1 hour ago, fredreload said:

That is why we need science?

To distinguish between how nature behaves and fantasy? Yes, that's one reason.

[SergUpstart]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Light doesn't leave or enter the universe. We are inside forever.

Are we living inside a black hole???

Edited August 26, 2021 by SergUpstart

[TheVat]

If the two ships are moving together (passing our Earth observatory as they pass by) in a shared FoR,  and one shoots a coherent light beam at the other,  then each "sees" the light beam as a straight line that is the length of their distance apart,  right?   If they are a light-minute apart (about 11.5 million miles), then a "ping" can be sent and replied to in 2 minutes.   However,  from Earth,  we see (humor me here,  or imagine dust in space that makes the laser beam visible) a beam that crosses a longer apparent distance,  because the ships have moved some distance in space between emission of beam and reception.   So,  from Earth FoR,  the ping and its reply (given c as constant) must take longer.   The ships are moving a large fraction of c,  so maybe the ping/reply interval will be three minutes.   But that can't be,  can it?   Can I resolve this with the Lorentz contraction that I,  the Earth observer,  see in the ships?  Is everything in the two ships' shared FoR foreshortened from my perspective?   

[swansont]

2 hours ago, SergUpstart said:

Are we living inside a black hole???

I know that’s an idea that’s been kicked around by some. I don’t know how to evaluate it.

[beecee]

2 hours ago, SergUpstart said:

Are we living inside a black hole???

 

9 minutes ago, swansont said:

I know that’s an idea that’s been kicked around by some. I don’t know how to evaluate it.

Perhaps we are living inside a universe inside a BH, inside a universe, inside a BH, inside......forget about the turtles, perhaps its BH's all the way down. 😉

[fredreload]

Let us see. You said you cannot evert the object by itself, but if you use the rigor method you will be left with an umbilical cord and therefore unable to connect to the future space time. The only way is if you rigor the future block space time as a separate non-connected instance to the present block of space time. If you attempt to sever the umbilical cord(An analogy of the lingering space time after sphere eversion.), then you could just cut through the present space time without sphere eversion(Which is still an unknown method.).

[swansont]

2 hours ago, fredreload said:

Let us see. You said you cannot evert the object by itself, but if you use the rigor method you will be left with an umbilical cord and therefore unable to connect to the future space time. The only way is if you rigor the future block space time as a separate non-connected instance to the present block of space time. If you attempt to sever the umbilical cord(An analogy of the lingering space time after sphere eversion.), then you could just cut through the present space time without sphere eversion(Which is still an unknown method.).

!

Moderator Note

I said none of that.

Eversion was a topic of another thread, which was closed. You don’t get to bring it up here. By making this connection, this becomes an argument in bad faith.