Our sense of identity

[geordief]

Is our sense of who or what we are more based on our internal processes  or is it more function of how  the outside worldviews us?

 

Or is it some indefinable feedback mechanism where these two processes feed off  and on each other ?

 

In short ,perhaps are we who we think we are or who others think we are?

[iNow]

Internal. You’d still have a self-identity even if you’d never met another being in your entire life. 

Also, you don’t know what other people think of you. You only have your own filtered version of what you think they think about you. 

Keep in mind self identities evolve. How we see ourselves changes with experience and we have incredible power to author who we wish to be… at least to ourselves. 

[geordief]

15 minutes ago, iNow said:

Internal. You’d still have a self-identity even if you’d never met another being in your entire life. 

That has never been observed has it?Even in the womb we may be aware  of our mother(even her feelings,perhaps-at least as we interpret them)

Actually this seems an ideal scenario.Does the child in the womb  have an entirely  separate sense of identity or is it mostly fused with what it perceives as that of its mother?

 

Is there any way that could conceivably be measured?

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by geordief

[TheVat]

Sense of identity,  of a self,  seems intimately tied to our environment and experiences of others.   Without developing a sense of other,  and the boundaries between self and world,  seems unlikely that a conscious awareness of identity would emerge.   IIRC,  studies in child psychology show there is no sense of being a separate being until a couple of years pass.   Will try to catch up with this later... 

[iNow]

You can’t separate the two. You’re asking for an answer to a question within no basis in reality. 

The baby in a womb is too young for sense of self. They just “are.” They don’t even have object permanence until sometime during the first year after birth (it doesn’t exist if they can’t currently see it)

[Gees]

15 hours ago, geordief said:

Is our sense of who or what we are more based on our internal processes  or is it more function of how  the outside worldviews us?

Or is it some indefinable feedback mechanism where these two processes feed off  and on each other ?

In short ,perhaps are we who we think we are or who others think we are?

You ask some difficult questions, and I think the answers are that both influence our ideas of who we are. Identity is a difficult concept because it requires an understanding of "self", which is very complex because "self" is a simple thing, but not a singular thing.

I don't know everything about "self" and identity, but I can share some information. Since it has already been brought up, I should clarify the idea of identity as to birth. When a person is born, they are physically separated from their mother, but retain the emotional bond and identity for a period of time. We know this because infants, who do not retain a bond (or quickly develop a bond) die of SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome). These babies do not possess the instincts that are necessary for life, like the ability to suckle and the need to breath. These instincts and the bonding both work through the unconscious aspect of mind and are part of Jung's collective unconscious, which could be called the larger "self" and causes us to identify with other humans. This human identity is a chemical or DNA internal concept; the bond with the mother is also internal and originated through the shared body.

At about 8 months old, the infant has discovered his fingers, toes, and the extend of his physical body; it is at this time that babies start to cry whenever mom leaves the room because they now realize that she is not connected and could leave them! So prior to this time, babies have no idea that mom and baby are separate things, which leads me to believe that baby sees his identity as the same as his mom's identity. This is a good time to start playing peek-a-boo with them so they can learn that out of sight does not mean gone.

At about 2 years old, the baby finally has enough of it's own identity that it can survive a break in the bond with it's mother/caregiver, which is why SIDS is no longer a threat. It is about this time that baby realizes that mom has her own mind and could possibly disagree with baby, which causes a lot of stress, so baby tests this idea in the form of the "terrible two's", where baby disagrees with everything. This is when we get signs of an individual mental self.

Then around 5 years, the child realizes that other people have their own minds and points of view. At 7 years the child has a fully developed rational aspect of mind. Although more changes will happen for years to come, this is the age when the child is considered to have the ability to choose rationally and to have identity. Most people consider the rational aspect of mind to be their "self" or identity. So far we have talked about the parts of identity that come with the body.

Then there is identity that is acquired by living: the school you went to, your hobbies, sports, religion, culture, family, friends, social status, race, college, work, city, country, home, or anything that you put the word "my" in front of adds to your identity. So identity comes from a lot of different sources, and "self" is like a drop that lands in still water causing an infinite number of ripples of "self". Does this part of identity affect your image of your "self"? Of course.

Gee