Jordan Peterson's ideas on politis

[iNow]

8 minutes ago, koti said:

The constant strive towards cleaning the nations conscience for the past 50 or so years has accelerated in the last 10 years or so towards rodiculous incidents - a multi convicted fellon junkie strangled to death by a degenerate murderer cop being elevated to a saint like figure with statues of him being erected. I really wouldn’t be surprised if Netlix releases a remake of „The Sound of Music” with afroamerican cast this Christmas. <...> This collectivly screwed up conscience in the US is becoming grotesque to a point which surely will lead to some kind of a war

Thank you for the response. I see that you've now conflated our current discussion about gender pronouns with the BLM movement and subsequent protests.

I also see that you and I attribute these reactions in BLM last year to different things. You appear to think the social reaction to these events is a misguided attempt to atone for the historical sin of slavery. While that certainly plays a background role, IMO the passion in the responses is much more about people who are being paid by our tax dollars to protect and serve our neighborhoods and communities... people who are present where we live... with our families... in uniform and as authorized agents of the state (aka: police)... murdering people with dark skin without consequence at an alarming an unacceptable rate. 

But that's all off-topic, anyway. There's an existing George Floyd thread (a few, in fact) where you can share your dismissal and disregard for his life and diminish the pain felt from his loss by his surviving family and friends... how his is not an exception, but a common occurrence and where you can blatantly suggest that his life somehow lacked worth and deserved to be taken being taken by police because he had some minor background of drug use.

I don't know who needs to hear this, but cops aren't supposed to murder guilty people, either.

Edited October 15, 2021 by iNow

[koti]

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

 

...where you can share your dismissal and disregard for his life and diminish the pain felt from his loss by his surviving family and friends... how his is not an exception, but a common occurrence and where you can blatantly suggest that his life somehow lacked worth and deserved to be taken being taken by police because he had some minor background of drug use...

 

In my opinion, youre like a 2 dimentional ant living on a 2 dimentional plane incapable of seing the 3rd dimention which causes you to behave like a dick above. But thats ok, we can coexist that way. Just be sure to tread carefuly when using pronouns towards me, I can assure you they will change and I expect you to honor this. Afterall you have no means of measuring my sincerity so you will comply.

Edited October 15, 2021 by koti

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Yeah, someone is going to have to do a better job of explaining why that example does not apply.
Here is a man, with a 5th grade daughter ( not an adult ) who has certain ideas ( whether right or wrong ) about gender reassignment. This is happening to his minor daughter  ( son ) without his consent
He is voicing those opinions because his concerns, about his daughter ( or son ) are not being addressed, and is being muzzled, by the law ( OK, not Bill C-16, granted ) from voicing those opinions.
And you guys said it would never get to that !

The issue here is that the whole matter would be the same if there the minor had a different medical condition. I am not sure which laws specifically apply but I assume the court order was in place because a) a minor was involved and b) medical records were involved. 

What I found was this:

Quote

One of the most “egregious” breaches, the judge said, was the release of court documents to a U.S.-based website that included the child’s proposed medical treatment plan, an informed consent form containing the child’s personal information and names of the child’s health care providers.

So in other words for the most past it appeared there were breaches in privacy rights. Can you see that the issue leading to jail has virtually nothing to do with pronouns or even just voicing opinion? Or conversely, do you think that folks' medical records should be allowed to be released without consent? 

But regardless whether you think the court order was just or not, it is about publishing specific records, not about someone's opinion or that someone was offended (well, besides the judge maybe). As such it does not really solidify the assumption that indeed many folks have been impacted by the law over misuse of pronouns.

And again, if it is so hard to actually find actual examples, it may be time to re-thing the veracity of the assumption. Folks here are science-minded, and as such evidence-driven, aren't they? So why not apply the same skills to other topics?

[iNow]

15 minutes ago, koti said:

youre like a 2 dimentional ant living on a 2 dimentional plane incapable of seing the 3rd dimention which causes you to behave like a dick

Like to think I've been trying to see the situation in 4-dimensions, actually. My posts and replies to you, however, are being  intentionally simplified since we seem to be so far apart on this. It's generally better to seek and find alignment on the basics before moving to the deeper complexities, IMO. 

I'd love to know which of my specific comments lead you to hyperbolically assert I'm behaving "like a dick," but then I'd be inclined to counter with quotes of your own which very much suggest your own guilt under this charge, and that seems unproductive for everyone. 

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, koti said:

Please just stick to adressing me in the manner which I’m asking you to. I will let you know in the hours/days to come if anything has changed. 

Like I said previously, it is like we are debating with a child. You should have stuck with your decision to leave this thread.

[koti]

Just now, iNow said:

Like to think I've been trying to see the situation in 4-dimensions, actually. My posts and replies to you, however, are being  intentionally simplified since we seem to be so far apart on this. It's generally better to seek and find alignment on the basics before moving to the deeper complexities, IMO. 

I'd love to know which of my specific comments lead you to hyperbolically assert I'm behaving "like a dick," but then I'd be inclined to counter with quotes of your own which very much suggest your own guilt under this charge, and that seems unproductive for everyone. 

Please use „thou” instead of „you” when refering to me from now on. We’ll see how many posts it takes you to adress me in 16th century Shakesperaean language.

5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Like I said previously, it is like we are debating with a child. You should have stuck with your decision to leave this thread.

It’s „thou” from now on please. 

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, koti said:

The ideological agendas which ade being built in society as a remedy for prior humanity mistakes are both a joke and a recipie for disaster.

I've noticed that many folks are pushing back against what's already been built into our societies, which is usually a kind of binary relationship out of convenience and economy. In the US, people are shoehorned into too few categories, and it seems to be that way in many countries. If you're not a circle or a square, you end up getting flagged as different. And these flags, they're persistent and act as a drag on people's prosperity. It's like trying to compete in a race fairly but every flag on you weighs an extra twenty pounds you have to compensate for just to keep pace. 

Yet science (and especially you, David Attenborough!) tells us that diversity is the key to a vibrant ecosystem. It seems like a poor use of our intelligence to want such homogenization and lack of choices and potentials as are advocated by JP and the far right in this regard. In the modern era, our best accomplishments have involved more diverse use of resources and intellect, and embracing new ideas (especially to help fight the depression many are finally admitting to) to solve old problems is good science. 

In my society, I try to see from a more collective perspective when I'm dealing with others. The staff at restaurants and shops aren't there to serve me like a lord when I snap my masculine fingers. When I drive, I want all of us to get where we're going safely, not just me quickly. And it's in my best interest to address those I interact with in the way that makes them feel best (if I want to make it all about me). This seems like an easy way to help someone remove a flag that's been holding them back, and the ripple effect can help create more diversity for society to work with. 

[koti]

19 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I've noticed that many folks are pushing back against what's already been built into our societies, which is usually a kind of binary relationship out of convenience and economy. In the US, people are shoehorned into too few categories, and it seems to be that way in many countries. If you're not a circle or a square, you end up getting flagged as different. And these flags, they're persistent and act as a drag on people's prosperity. It's like trying to compete in a race fairly but every flag on you weighs an extra twenty pounds you have to compensate for just to keep pace. 

Yet science (and especially you, David Attenborough!) tells us that diversity is the key to a vibrant ecosystem. It seems like a poor use of our intelligence to want such homogenization and lack of choices and potentials as are advocated by JP and the far right in this regard. In the modern era, our best accomplishments have involved more diverse use of resources and intellect, and embracing new ideas (especially to help fight the depression many are finally admitting to) to solve old problems is good science. 

In my society, I try to see from a more collective perspective when I'm dealing with others. The staff at restaurants and shops aren't there to serve me like a lord when I snap my masculine fingers. When I drive, I want all of us to get where we're going safely, not just me quickly. And it's in my best interest to address those I interact with in the way that makes them feel best (if I want to make it all about me). This seems like an easy way to help someone remove a flag that's been holding them back, and the ripple effect can help create more diversity for society to work with. 

Soothing and spot on as usual Phi. I like reading what you write, especially that you have a very light way of typing things in between the lines. Whats happening in this thread is not about what you wrote above though and you know it. It’s about people making other people on internet forums type in 16th century English for their sick fun and enabled by horribly formulated artificial rules which however childish and ridiculous will serve the clown because by definition, you have no means of measuring the clowns sincerity. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by koti

[iNow]

22 hours ago, koti said:

Whats under discussion is something completely different and you know it very well.

 

2 hours ago, koti said:

you know very well that…

 

10 minutes ago, koti said:

….and you know it.

I find your claims of telepathic and mind reading abilities quite remarkable. Have you considered using them for personal gain?

What else would you be willing to tell us and others about what we do and do not know? Am quite eager to learn more about just how deeply you’ve managed to penetrate the minds of others!

[koti]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

 

 

I find your claims of telepathic and mind reading abilities quite remarkable. Have you considered using them for personal gain?

What else would you be willing to tell us and others about what we do and do not know? Am quite eager to learn more about just how deeply you’ve managed to penetrate the minds of others!

Deeply enough to know that my personal mental health is in danger here, please adress me per „thou” instead of „you” 

Edited October 15, 2021 by koti

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, koti said:

Deeply enough to know that my personal mental health is in danger here, please adress me per „thou” instead of „you” 

Why doth thou feel comments about your own mental health are in any way relevant as a reply to my comment regarding thou’s claims of having insights into the minds of others? 

[Phi for All]

Just now, koti said:

Whats happening in this thread is not about what you wrote above and you know it.

You caught me. I was hoping to provide a good contrasting example to show everyone that masculine insults, peacock showboating, and aggressive dismissal diminish a conversation in much the same way they diminish the esteem of everyone within earshot. I don't have to respond to ALL posts in the thread, just the ones I think warrant it.

It occurs to me that many might view calling someone by a different pronoun the same way they'd view being asked to wear something silly. They're the one who have to speak the word, and if they think it has no point then they object that it's "ridiculous". In that POV, it's like asking Arnold (every man's image of themselves, right?) to wear a tutu.

And of course, that's not the case at all. I prefer to think of it as a friend who is asking me for a favor that costs me nothing (I'm not wearing a tutu after all, I'm using a pronoun the person I'm talking to prefers). I have to use a pronoun anyway, so it will just take me a bit to adjust and make someone feel better about themselves (and I don't have to understand why they don't like the ones that I've always used before).

[Peterkin]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Yeah, someone is going to have to do a better job of explaining why that example does not apply.

That will be difficult. For one thing, you don't want to know. For another, it's messy, and very badly reported, because the 'concerned father' publicized his child's situation to just the kind of outlets who distort stories to push their own agenda. 

 

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Here is a man, with a 5th grade daughter ( not an adult ) who has certain ideas ( whether right or wrong ) about gender reassignment. This is happening to his minor daughter  ( son ) without his consent

He's not a single parent; there is a perfectly functional mother in the picture, and the boy is in Grade 9. He doesn't just have "certain ideas"; he has been convinced of his incorrect gender assignment since 5th grade and that is why he sought help. Typically, gender dysphoria presents before age 10, before the the mis-assigned child has heard any 'ideas' on the subject or been exposed to any "ideology". 

Quote

By early grade school, children may be able to express that their internal gender is different than the one they were assigned at birth.

The father seemed entirely unconcerned with the child's emotional distress. So unconcerned as to refuse the mother's repeated pleas to meet with the health team; instead he went to court against his child. The child won. The unconcerned father was so distraught by this defeat that he set his child up as a target for hate-mongers.

Quote

Even though the father kept his child’s identity anonymous in his public comments, his conduct still put the child at high risk of exposure, violence, bullying and harassment, the judge found.

Quote

In multiple interviews before and after Bowden’s decision with The Federalist, an American conservative online magazine, and Culture Guard, a B.C.-based conservative activist group, the father continually referred to his child as female, discussed his child’s personal information in detail and stated his opposition to hormone therapy. At one point, the father expressed his hope that Fox News and Breitbart, a conservative website known for publishing far-right conspiracy theories, would cover the story.

His precious right to his precious opinion outweighs his child's welfare? The court disagreed.

[Arete]

3 hours ago, koti said:

Deeply enough to know that my personal mental health is in danger here, please adress me per „thou” instead of „you” 

And this is why we can't have nice things. 

Despite the fact it has clearly been outlined, explained and evidenced ad nauseum that this is an issue in the trans community - to the point where trans people whose pronouns are respected are half as likely to kill themselves than those whose aren't, the response is to mock and trivialize the issue. 

Thus aptly demonstrating why we can't rely on common courtesy and goodwill towards others to prevent discrimination, and need laws. 

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, koti said:

Deeply enough to know that my personal mental health is in danger here, please adress me per „thou” instead of „you” 

Most people have trouble getting the corresponding verb tenses right, and those who are comfortable with Elizabethan English, methinks are but faint inclined to exchange pleasantries with the likes of thee. 

[koti]

2 hours ago, Arete said:

...explained and evidenced ad nauseum...

Horseshit.

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Yeah, someone is going to have to do a better job of explaining why that example does not apply.
Here is a man, with a 5th grade daughter ( not an adult ) who has certain ideas ( whether right or wrong ) about gender reassignment. This is happening to his minor daughter  ( son ) without his consent
He is voicing those opinions because his concerns, about his daughter ( or son ) are not being addressed, and is being muzzled, by the law ( OK, not Bill C-16, granted ) from voicing those opinions.
And you guys said it would never get to that !

Also Arete, @hypervalent_iodine - SFN is becoming unbearable due to increased amounts of adds. Literally half of my iphone is flooded with google adds crap when I launch SFN on my phone. It's either go back to Science or bye bye for this politically and ideology driven site.

[nec209]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:50 AM, Hans de Vries said:

What do you think about the ideas of Jordan Peterson? More precisely the idea that history of human society is that of dialogue between conservatives and liberals and that if conservatives and liberals can agree on something, then it's likely a good thing to do. In other words too much conservatism is bad and too much liberalism is also bad

Jordan Peterson like many others will say over and over that men and Western culture are under siege by the left and feminism but will not elaborate.

Part of that could be that many feminism argue with other feminism over views what does feminism ever mean. Like say the take on violence or sexuality or getting jobs or going to school.

The liberals have different view on history than conservatives and that may be where Jordan Peterson is getting some of his views. And when it cones to the men and western culture are under siege he is making reference to.

[iNow]

2 hours ago, koti said:

Horseshit

I know that I often lead by example, but you missed the key part. I explained in my own post where I used this word why I did. You, however, used it in isolation and moved on as if it alone was somehow sufficient. 

2 hours ago, koti said:

It's either go back to Science or bye bye

It will surely be a loss for everyone if you take your ball and go home, what with your calm, well reasoned, dispassionate and inclusive approach to hot button topics.

No. Stop. Please. You’re like a lighthouse in the storm and we’ll all simply be lost at sea. Without your clear inclusive leadership, our boats will be battered upon the cliffs. Our chances of survival will fall to nearly zero if you should follow through on this dying swan threat and should you choose to extinguish your bright illuminating bulb and collaborative posting style. No. Stop. Please.  🙄

Edited October 16, 2021 by iNow

[nec209]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:13 AM, Phi for All said:I dislike many of them, especially when he blames the rise of toxic masculinity on feminists trying to "feminize" men. It's a LOT like the argument that men can't help themselves when it comes to "being men" and having to control themselves around women. Men like Peterson seem to argue that people are just animals while also profiting from his intellectual pursuits. He has the cake, he eats the cake, and women everywhere suffer for his POV. He doesn't even believe women merit equal pay for equal work. 

So he thinks it okay for violence in movies and TV shows that it is okay for guys to be violent and if guys get too soft and feminize that society will collapse.

That he believes liberals and feminists are trying to make guys to soft and feminize and this will lead to society collapse? 

[MigL]

Excuse the absence; was busy all day.

7 hours ago, Peterkin said:

because the 'concerned father' publicized his child's situation to just the kind of outlets who distort stories to push their own agenda. 

How else would you protest what you believe to be unjust treatment of your sdaughter ( son ) ? I can point you to plenty of threads where members of this forum have advocated breaking the law to protest unjust treatment.
And you only think those news outlets distort  stories because they have a different agenda than yours.

7 hours ago, Peterkin said:

So unconcerned as to refuse the mother's repeated pleas to meet with the health team; 

Was this team composed of one or more clinical psychologists ?
Tell me again ... What is Jordan Peterson ?
Is he not a clinical psychologist and a Psychology professor at one of Canada's most prestigious shools ?
Or is he 'out of his area of expertise' simply because you don't agree with his views ( but you agree with the school psychologist, and others, who recommended the girl's gender transition ) ?

I have one final question for everyone...

Everyone has claimed that it's a courtesy to use someone's preferred pronoun.
So, if I don't address Koti as 'thou', am I simply discourtious, or am I a bigot ?
( bigotry carries a lot more baggage, and consequences, than being rude )

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

So, if I don't address Koti as 'thou', am I simply discourtious, or am I a bigot ?

You’re neither, because koti was just acting childishly, arguing in bad faith, and doesn’t actually identify as “thou.”

[MigL]

I'm fully aware of Koty's motives ( to prove a point ), but I would still like an answer.

[iNow]

If someone tells you they identify as a man and request you refer to them as such, yet you then refuse to accept this and persist in referring them as a woman, then it seems highly likely to me that you’re acting in a manner which is best described as BOTH discourteous and bigoted… especially if that individual has asked you repeatedly and you repeatedly disregarded their perfectly valid request. 

That is my answer, whether you like it not. 

[Peterkin]

48 minutes ago, MigL said:

8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

because the 'concerned father' publicized his child's situation to just the kind of outlets who distort stories to push their own agenda. 

How else would you protest what you believe to be unjust treatment of your sdaughter ( son ) ?

Daughter. He doesn't acknowledge the child's right to be a boy. The "unjust treatment" is to give him what he asked for and the mother approved. How else [other than blabbing the child's private problem to the tabloids, which helped nobody] you might protest a medical procedure of which you disapprove is to talk to the patient's doctor(s).

48 minutes ago, MigL said:

Was this team composed of one or more clinical psychologists ?

One clinical child psychologist, afaik, and presumably some medical practitioners. With whom the father did not speak.

48 minutes ago, MigL said:

Tell me again ... What is Jordan Peterson ?

 I thought you knew. He used to be a university professor, a researcher in some whole other field of psychology, a writer of self-help books and is more recently an overpriced inspirational speaker at right-wing rallies. I'm reasonably sure the ex-wife of a mailman couldn't afford to consult him, even if she'd wanted to.  Why did you think this was relevant?To what do you think this is relevant?

48 minutes ago, MigL said:

Everyone has claimed that it's a courtesy to use someone's preferred pronoun.
So, if I don't address Koti as 'thou', am I simply discourtious, or am I a bigot ?

Who gives a ...... ....?

Edited October 16, 2021 by Peterkin

[Phi for All]

44 minutes ago, MigL said:

I'm fully aware of Koty's motives ( to prove a point ), but I would still like an answer.

If koti points out the proper spelling of his name to you, yet you insist on capitalizing it and using a y at the end instead of an i for reasons of your own, and continue to do so in spite of his pleas to get it right, I think you're not only being discourteous, you might have some bigoted reason for not using his preferred spelling. After a while, it might seem like you were being purposely disrespectful and had some insulting reason for doing it.