Jordan Peterson's ideas on politis

[MigL]

30 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That's from a conservative new York-based magazine.

Horseshit ! 
( as INow would say )

I was asked for an instance where a person has been prosecuted under canadian law, for his/her views on gender transitioning.
I provided one .
Does any media outlet, conservative or liberal, deny that he is being prosecuted, and jailed ?

 Let's try to keep the goalposts in one place, gentlemen.

[zapatos]

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

I was asked for an instance where a person has been prosecuted under canadian law, for his/her views on gender transitioning.
I provided one .

Not according to the link you provided.

[CharonY]

14 minutes ago, MigL said:

Horseshit ! 
( as INow would say )

I was asked for an instance where a person has been prosecuted under canadian law, for his/her views on gender transitioning.
I provided one .
Does any media outlet, conservative or liberal, deny that he is being prosecuted, and jailed ?

 Let's try to keep the goalposts in one place, gentlemen.

Actually no, I asked you to provide evidence there is ample evidence of folks being prosecuted based on Bil C-16 or because of pronouns. So let's the question again before we claim moving the goalpost, shall we?

  

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

So since you consider it such a big deal, kindly let me know the rough number of folks charged under C-16 then? If failing that, how many folks were let go because of pronouns alone (i.e. without any further acts of discrimination).

And that was prompted by 

Quote

Not about being offensive ???
How many people have lost their jobs, been severely financially impacted, or had to defend themselves against charges that someone brought up because they were offended that they did not use their preferred pronoun ?
 

So after all this outrage all you can come up with is one, and as the links indicated not because of pronouns or offending someone, but because contempt of the court? I mean, if that was such a big deal one would expect to come up with at least a couple of cases where someone was "charged" because someone did not "use their preferred pronoun?"

If someone has stretch so much to find one case that is at best tangentially related, why spend so much energy on being offended by the situation? In contrast to clearly documented violence and discrimination against transgender folks this seems rather excessive.

[Peterkin]

50 minutes ago, MigL said:

I was asked for an instance where a person has been prosecuted under canadian law, for his/her views on gender transitioning.

Except he wasn't prosecuted for his views; he was prosecuted for flouting a gag order and blabbing very private matters to the media, and for harassing the poor kid whom he wanted to be his little girl but who experienced himself as a boy. 

54 minutes ago, MigL said:

Does any media outlet, conservative or liberal, deny that he is being prosecuted, and jailed ?

No, the issue on which they disagree is what for. There is a fair amount of other bias in that article, as well.

[koti]

5 hours ago, iNow said:

Horseshit. All I did was call HIM out for running away and ceasing participation after ignoring at least 4 direct requests for an answer. HE obviously couldn’t answer so took HIS ball and went home like a snot nosed child after realizing HE had picked a fight HE couldn’t win. 

I’ve changed my mind since yesterday, you will adress me as „Ze” from now on, „He” is insulting and unacceptable for me, please adhere to my wish as my mental well being is at stake here.

[Intoscience]

19 hours ago, iNow said:

I think you need to be a bit more PC by recognizing that you're not the sole arbiter of what is "ridiculous." 

And I think I don't "need" to be a bit more anything, this could be your opinion and as you stated "opinions are like buttholes..." I think in the cases I'm considering the vast majority of people (other than the extremists) would also consider the behaviour to be ridiculous. But, times are changing and I accept that moral standards and what is deemed acceptable changes with it, however -

My personal stance is, I try to be courteous and considerate as and when possible, but if I get called out for something that in my "opinion" is ridiculous then I'm not going to back down just to be more "PC". I won't repeatedly intend to continue to offend someone, I will accept that we share different opinions and feelings so respectfully decline from further communication or discussions on the subject. But I won't accept that I should change my view to fit in or be accepted by someone just because the risk of offending them.

All I'm saying is, where does it all end? When does it get to the stage where people are in fear of making any comment at risk of being branded offensive or a bigot?  

 

21 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed it does and like a pyramid it starts from the ground up, if everyone is just a little bit more sensitive; the world is just a little bit better. 

Ignoring the base/problem is a recipe for disaster... 

But life is unfair and tough, over sensitivity can breed weakness in people. A weakness to face up to hardships, facts and deal with issues, instead burying their heads in the sand then complaining that someone else should fix it.

Like all good things moderation and balance is required. Tough love is often as productive as soft love (for want of a better term) The right balance between them is the key to success.  

18 hours ago, zapatos said:

Serious question. Who are these people you are referring to? And what I'm asking for is their names or other identifying information.

I don't have names that you would be familiar with, my point was drawn from my own experience interacting with people within my community. 

I can give you an example. 

The company I work for produce a particular product, the product is designed to appeal to gender, age, genre... we had a large group of visitors come and as a gesture the company decided to have one product made for each member of the group. Our sales director ordered a quantity of pink hearts design and a quantity of blue star design. This in his mind was to satisfy the ladies and the men . He was called out on this for discrimination, and described as a sexist bigot by some colleagues. He re-considered his actions and decide that the easiest solution was to just offer the neutral design which is non gender specific.

Now you may ask, why weren't the people offered the choice, I asked this, and at the time the gesture was meant to be a surprise gift, so asking them to choose was not an option. He realised that in the modern PC world sending the neutral design was the most appropriate thing to do. He had made an honest and reasonable mistake with a considerate original intention. Yet he is now labelled as a sexist bigot.   

17 hours ago, TheVat said:

My impression which is (full disclosure) based on random observations over many decades is that "oversensitive" is often what white,  straight,  middle-class, Christian, normally-abled people call people whose life difficulties they've never remotely experienced.  In other words, it's often used in ignorance and applied to a group of people they don't know and whose forms of discrimination they're never going to experience.    

These responses remind of that classic Onion headline:  Racism Over,  White People Declare!   

  

 

That's just not true, 

On the contrary, in my experience it tends to be the middle class, white, normally abled, often privileged people who get "oversensitive" sometimes on matters that don't even concern them or affect them directly. I have a couple of friends who are from an Asian ethnic poor minority, living in a white majority area, who do experience racism and deal with it admirably without getting oversensitive.     

Edited October 15, 2021 by Intoscience
spelling

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

But life is unfair and tough, over sensitivity can breed weakness in people. A weakness to face up to hardships, facts and deal with issues, instead burying their heads in the sand then complaining that someone else should fix it.

Like all good things moderation and balance is required. Tough love is often as productive as soft love (for want of a better term) The right balance between them is the key to success.  

If we're a little bit kinder, life is a little less unfair; being tough is a weakness too, being sensitive to that is a strength.

For good balance we need a good base.

 

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

19 hours ago, TheVat said:

My impression which is (full disclosure) based on random observations over many decades is that "oversensitive" is often what white,  straight,  middle-class, Christian, normally-abled people call people whose life difficulties they've never remotely experienced.  In other words, it's often used in ignorance and applied to a group of people they don't know and whose forms of discrimination they're never going to experience.    

These responses remind of that classic Onion headline:  Racism Over,  White People Declare!   

  

 

Expand  

That's just not true

Really? Have you ever been a slave?

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, koti said:

I’ve changed my mind since yesterday, you will adress me as „Ze” from now on, „He” is insulting and unacceptable for me, please adhere to my wish as my mental well being is at stake here.

It may take us a while to change since it's "old normal" to address someone who looks like a man as "he", but if you're sincere I have no problems with it. Since I'm going to be addressing Ze as a pronoun at some point, it might as well be something Ze appreciate.

9 hours ago, MigL said:

I was asked for an instance where a person has been prosecuted under canadian law, for his/her views on gender transitioning.
I provided one .
Does any media outlet, conservative or liberal, deny that he is being prosecuted, and jailed ?

 Let's try to keep the goalposts in one place, gentlemen.

Oh man, that's pretty sneaky! You move the goalposts while demanding they now stay in place. Hoogland's case involves him going public about a 15 year old girl's private biology. The way the stories read, he's being held in contempt on another charge and NOT this new law, because Canadian law is very twitchy about using the names of minors in news stories.

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, studiot said:

No it just demonstrates my point which was that the posting a picture on social media can actually work, but this was a practice you condemned

It's the difference between actual reason's to be offended and righteous indignation. 

For instance, once your example is published and accepted there's no reason to post another picture, we understand the problem; but if you don't pick it up, you're just part of the problem...

[koti]

21 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It may take us a while to change since it's "old normal" to address someone who looks like a man as "he", but if you're sincere I have no problems with it. Since I'm going to be addressing Ze as a pronoun at some point, it might as well be something Ze appreciate.

Thank you Phi, I appreciate your quick adherence to my wishes. Lets just hope @iNow will do the same in the next posts he directs at me as I wouldn't want to leap into depression. Lets keep our fingers crossed. 

[iNow]

5 hours ago, koti said:

I’ve changed my mind since yesterday, you will adress me as „Ze” from now on

Okay, fine with that, Ze.

Should I accidently forget to use this new pronoun after you eventually stop posting then return a year later after absence, I preemptively request that you please remind me politely of your preffered pronoun and desire not to be referred to as He/Him. I assure you that once you do I will gladly correct myself if by accident I apply the wrong pronoun... the one you JUST YESTERDAY demanded be applied, but which TODAY you suddenly feel is insulting and unacceptable.

It's a damned shame you can't bring yourself to stop belittling the very real experience of millions of your peers in society, and also that you're clearly not here to argue in good faith nor have anything even remotely resembling a mature discussion.  

6 minutes ago, koti said:

Thank you Phi, I appreciate your quick adherence to my wishes. Lets just hope @iNow will do the same in the next posts he directs at me as I wouldn't want to leap into depression. Lets keep our fingers crossed. 

Again, bad faith. Thanks for consistently reinforcing why your views are to be taken with a grain of salt (especially after repeatedly failing to properly represent what is happening with the law and in the articles cited)... even after being repeatedly corrected by other members. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by iNow

[koti]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

Okay, fine with that, Ze.

Should I accidently forget to use this new pronoun after you eventually stop posting then return a year later after absence, I preemptively request that you please remind me politely of your preffered pronoun and desire not to be referred to as He/Him. I assure you that once you do I will gladly correct myself if by accident I apply the wrong pronoun... the one you JUST YESTERDAY demanded be applied, but which TODAY you suddenly feel is insulting and unacceptable.

It's a damned shame you can't bring yourself to stop belittling the very real experience of millions of your peers in society, and also that you're clearly not here to argue in good faith nor have anything even remotely resembling a mature discussion.  

Again, bad faith. Thanks for consistently reinforcing why your views are to be taken with a grain of salt (especially after repeatedly failing to properly represent what is happening with the law and in the articles cited)... even after being repeatedly corrected by other members. 

Please just stick to adressing me in the manner which I’m asking you to. I will let you know in the hours/days to come if anything has changed. 

[Phi for All]

9 minutes ago, koti said:

Thank you Phi, I appreciate your quick adherence to my wishes.

It's not a problem. Depression is like cancer, one often doesn't realize one has it until it's suddenly affecting everything in one's life. Respecting how a person wants to be addressed by peers may seem like a little thing, but it can have an enormous effect on self-esteem. 

And ultimately, if I get a happier, more confident Koti to discuss science or politics with, it benefits me greatly. If I care about the pronouns others use wrt me, I'm not going to set a double standard by ignoring their wishes.

 

[MigL]

Yeah, someone is going to have to do a better job of explaining why that example does not apply.
Here is a man, with a 5th grade daughter ( not an adult ) who has certain ideas ( whether right or wrong ) about gender reassignment. This is happening to his minor daughter  ( son ) without his consent
He is voicing those opinions because his concerns, about his daughter ( or son ) are not being addressed, and is being muzzled, by the law ( OK, not Bill C-16, granted ) from voicing those opinions.
And you guys said it would never get to that !

[iNow]

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I think I don't "need" to be a bit more anything

And that's fine. You clearly see yourself as perfect already. No worries. I simply won't count you as a willing ally when trying to leave things better than how we found them and when seeking to minimize needless ostracization and social reinforcement of traditional outgroups. 

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I try to be courteous and considerate as and when possible, but if I get called out for something that in my "opinion" is ridiculous then I'm not going to back down

In which case your stated claim that you attempt to be kind and courteous is specious. You signal with words that you're kind and courteous, but then fail when it matters to actually act in a manner which is either of those things... Instead, you dismiss people and their requests as "ridiculous." That's neither kind, nor courteous despite your claims of being both. 

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I won't accept that I should change my view to fit in or be accepted by someone just because the risk of offending them

Your view is pretty irrelevant when it comes to how strangers identify themselves, but even so... Nobody is asking that you change it. You can keep any views you hold or want.

People are simply asking that when their name is James you stop insisting on calling them Sally. They're not even asking that you be kind. They're just asking that you be courteous. No changes in personal views required. 

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

All I'm saying is, where does it all end?

Society is not stationary nor stagnant. We are ALWAYS evolving culturally, and hopefully getting better as we do. Personally, I see that as a good thing.

One might even argue that it will NEVER end. We ALL will be asked someday to adjust our views and choices of words. You. Me. Everyone... and when that happens, we can either choose to be good neighbors and accept our personal roles in expanding inclusivity for others who have traditionally been scorned and ostracized and targeted for violence, or we can instead hold firm for arbitrary reasons to legacy words and pigeonholes that are exclusionary, hurtful, and often downright dehumanizing. 

If someone brands you as a bigot or suggests you're being offensive toward them, then IMO that shouldn't trigger fear. It should trigger self-reflection and a willingness to improve... to close a blind spot in your mental model of the world that you maybe didn't even realize existed... but YMMV.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by iNow

[koti]

4 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

And ultimately, if I get a happier, more confident Koti to discuss science or politics with, it benefits me greatly. If I care about the pronouns others use wrt me, I'm not going to set a double standard by ignoring their wishes.

 

Not everyone thinks like you Phi. In fact there are very little people around with your kind of decency and intelligence combined. I assume you know very well that sincerity cannot be a factor by default in the charade I'm playing here.

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, koti said:

Not everyone thinks like you Phi. In fact there are very little people around with your kind of decency and intelligence combined. I assume you know very well that sincerity cannot be a factor by default in the charade I'm playing here.

What is the charade you're playing, here? 

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What is the charade you're playing, here? 

That Ze really isn't Koti's preferred pronoun... That it's all an attempt to belittle and diminish and dismiss the very real lived experiences of millions in the trans community that Koti considers to be an outgroup not worthy of basic decency and respect nor to be a part of the Koti tribe. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by iNow

[TheVat]

11 minutes ago, koti said:

 In fact there are very little people around with your kind of decency and intelligence combined.

You mean dwarves?  

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

That Ze really isn't Koti's preferred pronoun. That it's all an attempt to belittle and dismiss the very real lived experiences of millions that Koti considers to be an outgroup and not part of the Koti tribe. 

MEH, a joke is a way to codify information, not belittle it...

[koti]

13 minutes ago, iNow said:

That Ze really isn't Koti's preferred pronoun... That it's all an attempt to belittle and diminish and dismiss the very real lived experiences of millions in the trans community that Koti considers to be an outgroup not worthy or respect nor part of the Koti tribe. 

Youre right on the tribe part, very much so. Your cry about millions in the trans community is either blindness on your part of failing to recognise what this is all about or hypocrisy or possibly both. The ideological agendas which ade being built in society as a remedy for prior humanity mistakes are both a joke and a recipie for disaster. Now without charades and agendas I really need to go back to playing „rushing turtles” with my kid and my PhD wife who thinks I’m an idiot for wasting my time on a pollitical internet forum - and shes right.

Edited October 15, 2021 by koti

[TheVat]

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

 

I have a couple of friends who are from an Asian ethnic poor minority, living in a white majority area, who do experience racism and deal with it admirably without getting oversensitive.     

I'm glad to hear you've evaluated their sensitivity to racism and found it appropriate and not excessive.   Let me know if they ever get uppity and you need to advise them on that.  

[iNow]

1 minute ago, koti said:

Your cry about millions in the trans community is either blindness on your part of failing to recognise what this is all about or hypocrisy or possibly both. The ideological agendas which ade being built in society as a remedy for prior humanity mistakes are both a joke and a recipie for disaster

I do not understand either of these points, but I would like to. Will you please elaborate?

 

[koti]

22 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I'm glad to hear you've evaluated their sensitivity to racism and found it appropriate and not excessive.   Let me know if they ever get uppity and you need to advise them on that.  

 

21 minutes ago, iNow said:

I do not understand either of these points, but I would like to. Will you please elaborate?

 

 Note the above comment by TheVat. 
One can take a line of thinking that America is a nation built on slavery, murder and bigotry. The constant strive towards cleaning the nations conscience for the past 50 or so years has accelerated in the last 10 years or so towards rodiculous incidents - a multi convicted fellon junkie strangled to death by a degenerate murderer cop being elevated to a saint like figure with statues of him being erected. I really wouldn’t be surprised if Netlix releases a remake of „The Sound of Music” with afroamerican cast this Christmas.

We have the same shitshow in Poland only the circumstanes are different - instead of having a nationwide crippled conscience because of slavery we have it with the killings of Jews, Germany is bad Nazis because theyre German, etc. but fundamentally its the same thing everywhere. This collectivly screwed up conscience in the US is becoming grotesque to a point which surely will lead to some kind of a war because it polarizes people beyond anyones capabilities to behave in a civilised way. Caitlyn Jenner became ‚Woman of The Year’ in the first year „she” has became a „woman” I mean let that sink in.

[TheVat]

"I refuse to engage in a duel of wits with an unarmed man."