Who wants to live forever?

[beecee]

https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/big-tech/2021/10/who-wants-to-live-forever-big-tech-and-the-quest-for-eternal-youth

Who wants to live forever? Big Tech and the quest for eternal youth

Anti-ageing drugs are bankrolled by some of the wealthiest people on Earth, including Jeff Bezos and Peter Thiel. Are the scientists close to a cure?

By Jenny Kleeman

 

The summer before she started her neuroscience degree at the University of Texas, Celine Halioua  interned at a clinic in Germany, working with patients who had age-related brain cancer. She formed a bond with one of them. “He had a large, bushy moustache and a permanent smile – the picture of a kind father,” she told me. “My German was not great, and neither was his English, but what struck me was his kindness – despite the fact he was there to discuss his terminal diagnosis.”

Halioua was shadowing a doctor, and found it hard to grasp that nothing could be done for this patient. “I always thought that doctors were magical – that if you put the effort in, you’d be able to fix it. The realisation that you can’t made me feel that we don’t have free will.”

She resolved to find that fix: not a cure for cancer, but an end to ageing itself. Now, at only 27, Halioua is a leading light in the relatively new field of anti-ageing biotech. “I’m confident we’ll have an ageing drug by the time it’s relevant for me,” she told me. She estimated that time as “within a decade”, and aims to dominate the market before then. “Transparently, my goal is to build the ageing pharma company – there will be many. The ageing field will one day be larger than the cancer field.” Halioua described ageing as “deviation from optimal biological function”. “Optimal” is subjective, of course: Olympic gymnasts peak at a much younger age than Olympic sprinters. “Old” is easier to define: Halioua described it as “when the physical body gets in the way of the thing that you want to do”.

Halioua’s speech was so rapid that the internet connection from her office in San Francisco could barely keep up. She looked every inch the digital nomad in her black T-shirt and AirPods: part biogerontologist, part CEO, part Gen Z-er. Halioua’s mother is Moroccan and her father German; she was born in Texas but studied in Sweden, Germany and the UK, and dropped out of her PhD at Oxford University and began to work for the venture capitalist Laura Deming, now 27, at the California-based Longevity Fund, a firm that invests in anti-ageing businesses. Halioua launched her own start-up in 2020.

The quest for eternal youth may not be new, but it is now bankrolled by some of the wealthiest individuals and corporations on Earth. PayPal co-founder Peter Thiel and Oracle’s Larry Ellison are among the many billionaires who are investing. Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page helped launch Calico, a Google subsidiary focused on combating ageing, in 2013. Amazon founder Jeff Bezos is in the game: not long after touching down from his maiden space flight in July, he was reported to have invested an undisclosed sum in Russian billionaire Yuri Milner’s Altos Labs, which will have a research base in Cambridge, UK (most anti-ageing start-ups are in the US). It is estimated that the industry will be worth $610bn by 2025.

more at link..............................

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Well? Who want's to live forever? Personally, I want to stay in the land of the living, until I decide for whatever reason, to switch off.

[TheVat]

Good God no.   I think healthy consciousness needs a fresh brain after a century or so,  no matter how much wisdom or patience age brings.   I would think the most creative and self-regenerating and joyful person in the world would inevitably find their thoughts growing stale and jaded after a century.   I don't think we humans are wired for immortality,  and our lives are meaningful because they are quite finite.   At the least, we would need some sort of biological form of reincarnation, something that wipes the years clean every so often and restores a youthful openness.  

 

 

[Peterkin]

I wonder how the queen is feeling tonight. (Strangely, and for no reason, I've been humming her song the last couple of days.  I wish her well, btw; I think she's done a better  job as monarch than the vast majority of her predecessors. But every era must end.) 

10 minutes ago, TheVat said:

 I think healthy consciousness needs a fresh brain after a century or so,  no matter how much wisdom or patience age brings.

I'm not so sure about the patience of age. So many elder parts are bad at waiting for things, and so many of us have a tougher time every year, suffering fools and wastrels.  I do see the need for rejuvenation.

16 minutes ago, TheVat said:

At the least, we would need some sort of biological form of reincarnation, something that wipes the years clean every so often and restores a youthful openness. 

What if you had alternate bodies? Clones would do in a pinch, but I'd prefer a real change: five years as an iguana, perhaps, then back to my regular self for ten; five years as a Laplander, then back to my regular self for ten.... A change of scenery and perspective, different sensory equipment. I've always envied Granny Weatherwax her ability to 'borrow' other creatures. It wouldn't need to be actual bodies; it could be a virtual vacation in a computer simulation.*

But even if you didn't regenerate the physical brain, at least you could take on some long-term projects.

Of course, none of this is practicable with the current level of population or anything near it. It could only ever be available to a few. In SF mode: how this story would end is: Yes, they invent the anti-aging drug: people who take it stay the same age as when they begin treatment.... for the exact number of heartbeats they would normally have had left. Some good-looking corpses for the embalmer.  

 

(* Yes, I'm aware that a computer doesn't understand the first thing about how being an iguana feels. But it could recreate the environment, locomotion, POV as well as it could for magic adventure games. I'm sure some bright young-ish coders would be happy to get on that project.)

[zapatos]

If it was what I considered a good life, then hell yes, I'd be down for immortality. I just want the option to bail if things go south.

[beecee]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

If it was what I considered a good life, then hell yes, I'd be down for immortality. I just want the option to bail if things go south.

Bingo!!! My thoughts exactly!!!

[zapatos]

I'm reminded of a horror story I read decades ago about someone who was made immortal. Life was horrible and he wanted to die but was unable to kill himself. He ended up getting chopped into little pieces in a final attempt. I still remember the description of the pieces of flesh flopping around on the floor as they were all still alive...

[TheVat]

Sounds like a Harlan Ellison story.   And then there's that Greek myth where Tithonus gets eternal life but has to shrink down to a cicada and so he ends up miserable and longing for death.  

Yeah if I had a youthful body,  sharp mind,  and some absorbing long-term project,  I might view extended lifespan more favorably.   And perhaps centuries of life would alter the mind in some wonderful way we just can't imagine.   (not like those nasty immortals on Star Trek OS who enjoy telekinetic torture of dwarves and kidnapping starship officers who are forced into bad community theater) 

I look forward to @Peterkin reporting on their five years of being an iguana.   Watch iguana dew?  (been saving that one)

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Watch iguana dew?  (been saving that one)

And it was worth the wait!

This theme of extreme longevity is far from unexplored. It's a constant preoccupation of a species intensely aware of its mortality - and yet so arbitrary in assigning value to life.  One of the older races in Babylon 5 threw a collective tantrum when one of their number was killed: they were so unused to death - as applied to themselves. They were happy to apply it with a lavish hand to the the younger races. It's partly a question of numbers: few are precious; many are expendable. A very human concept.   

[Phi for All]

If you can't make it available for everyone, and only the wealthy can afford it, I think most folks would view that differently than not getting to party on a yacht or eat caviar whenever you want. If the rich get to also live forever, I think the not-rich might resent that in a whole different way.

I like Peterkin's idea of staying the same age physically for the rest of your normal life. Not more time for everyone to stress the planet's resources, but more time in a youngish body to enjoy our lives. I can appreciate how experience and knowledge have changed my perspective throughout my life, but living through an aging body is only teaching me tolerance for other people's aging bodies. If none of us had to go through it, I don't think our perspectives would be diminished in the least.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

If the rich get to also live forever, I think the not-rich might resent that in a whole different way.

I'm not sure. Common people have always accepted that their betters have the power of life and death over them. Historically, however egregious the injustices and cruelties imposed upon them by the ruling elite, people have not revolted except when they were literally starving and when their religious or national identity was at stake. Even then, it takes at least one charismatic leader, a lot of agitation and a lot more repression, for a showdown to take place. (Mostly, the rebels lose anyway.)

Under capitalism, we have long learned to accept the parties on the yacht, the gold toilets, the joyrides in space, even while people freeze to death in the street. We already know that some people can buy vital organs, as well as cosmetic surgery and high-tech implants, while many can't afford emergency care when they've been in an accident. We have raised the super-rich up to Olympus; we expect them to take advantage of all its amenities.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Peterkin
one more sentence

[Phi for All]

17 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I'm not sure. Common people have always accepted that their betters have the power of life and death over them. Historically, however egregious the injustices and cruelties imposed upon them by the ruling elite, people have not revolted except when they were literally starving and when their religious or national identity was at stake. Even then, it takes at least one charismatic leader, a lot of agitation and a lot more repression, for a showdown to take place. (Mostly, the rebels lose anyway.)

Under capitalism, we have long learned to accept the parties on the yacht, the gold toilets, the joyrides in space, even while people freeze to death in the street. We already know that some people can buy vital organs, as well as cosmetic surgery and high-tech implants, while many can't afford emergency care when they've been in an accident. We have raised the super-rich up to Olympus; we expect them to take advantage of all its amenities.

Yet something tells me that substantially prolonged life might be different. The average human understands extravagance, and may even be used to heartless behavior from the wealthy when it comes to life style, but knowing your whole life could be ten times longer if "the haves" weren't so greedy seems too great a lure. People risk incarceration already because of wealth gaps, and I think an equally big gap in life expectancy would be much worse. Life is just that important to the living.

Maybe I should just leave it that I wouldn't want to live forever if some people wanted to but weren't allowed.

[zapatos]

36 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Common people have always accepted that their betters have the power of life and death over them.

Speak for yourself Peterkin. First of all, anyone 'better' than me would not be taking my life. Second, being unable to effectively fight back is not the same as "acceptance".

[Peterkin]

11 minutes ago, zapatos said:

First of all, anyone 'better' than me would not be taking my life.

History is not about you or me. And there are still those in position to take our lives any time they chose to.

 

11 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Second, being unable to effectively fight back is not the same as "acceptance".

Yes, it is. If they all wanted to "fight back", they could. There have only ever been a handful of people who give orders and millions who obey orders. 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Peterkin

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, TheVat said:

Sounds like a Harlan Ellison story. 

Maybe you are thinking of "I have no mouth and I must scream"? IIRC the protagonist was made unable to kill himself by transforming him into a kind of immortal blob (hence having no mouth).

Of course as all stories there are even older ones, Prometheus being perpetually eaten by an eagle comes to mind. Zapatos' story sounds maddingly familiar but I cannot recall the title of the story nor whether I actually read it...

[Peterkin]

As I said, the value humans assign to life - their own, the lives of other humans, the lives of other species - is arbitrary. 

25 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

People risk incarceration already because of wealth gaps, and I think an equally big gap in life expectancy would be much worse. Life is just that important to the living.

Some people have always risked much worse than incarceration to get the necessities that the greedy took for granted, and took from the poor. But the risk-takers were always a small minority compared to the willing enforcers of whatever status quo. There was always an inquisitor or sheriff, with plenty of men-at-arms to deal with the trouble-makers. The rich have always lived longer, as well as better. They had, and they still have, the power to send people to the gallows, battlefields and gaschambers - and the people go. 

When Bezos and Musk get the youth pill, most people will hear about it late, in snatches, as rumours. They won't believe it. Then they'll see pictures of youthful billionnaires and wonder. Then start believing it. Many conspiracy theories will arise. Many executives and other minions will try to cozy up to one of the privileged; there will be a frenzy of trading, market bubbles, buyouts, bankruptcies and recessions, in an attempt for more of millinnaires to become billionaires. There will be illicit trade in cheaper knock-offs, some of which may even be partly effective. There will be some attampts to break into the labs and vaults where the stuff is kept. If any are actually acquired, there will be shootouts at the access and distribution points. The least competent and ruthless perpetrators will be caught and made an example of.  But no global revolution.

[zapatos]

24 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

History is not about you or me.

Of course it is. It's about all of us.

24 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

And there are still those in position to take our lives any time they chose to.

Of course there are. But they are not better than me, which is what you said of them.

25 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Yes, it is. If they all wanted to "fight back", they could. 

 

No, the world does not work that way. People dying under Stalin had no effective means to fight back. Having desire and a supply of rocks to throw is not enough.

25 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Zapatos' story sounds maddingly familiar but I cannot recall the title of the story nor whether I actually read it...

I spent about a half hour on Google trying to find it but couldn't remember enough detail to locate it. Drives me crazy when that happens...

[beecee]

Good, bad, rich, poor, sad, or happy, I want to stay in the land of the living until I'm ready to leave it. The causes of natural death, like age related diseases and such, will in time be curtailed but living forever? I can't see anyone of us not at some time in the distant future, not wanting to accept that he/she has seen it all, and boredom with life in general overtakes us. Me? If I see boots on Mars, the discovery of other life off this Earth, space ship trips to the outer solar system and looking back at a "pale blue dot" we call Earth, a peaceful  society on Earth, devoid of political rivalary and nonsense, discovery of other comparable peaceful intelligent species elsewhere in our galaxy, then I may voluntarily decide to pull the plug and face death as a happy man.

[Peterkin]

12 minutes ago, zapatos said:

But they are not better than me, which is what you said of them.

Of course they are not better than you in any sense of which we can make sense in modern common parlance. That is not what "I" said of "them";  those [commoners and betters] are the terms that were used in societies where class structure was less artfully concealed than it is in modern western advanced industrial etc. 

17 minutes ago, zapatos said:

No, the world does not work that way. People dying under Stalin had no effective means to fight back.

The world works that way. Stalins don't just descend from the sky, fully armed with thunderbolts and photon cannons. People dying under the Romanoffs fought back successfully and that struggle threw up a Stalin from among their ranks, who became the new emperor.

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Maybe you are thinking of "I have no mouth and I must scream"? IIRC the protagonist was made unable to kill himself by transforming him into a kind of immortal blob (hence having no mouth).

Of course as all stories there are even older ones, Prometheus being perpetually eaten by an eagle comes to mind. Zapatos' story sounds maddingly familiar but I cannot recall the title of the story nor whether I actually read it...

Yes,  that's the Ellison one.   I think @zapatos story might be Hell is Forever,  by Alfred Bester.  A novella,  from the 1940s.  Was in an anthology of his,  IIRC,  but not sure which.    

[beecee]

A song for the occasion.................

 

[Peterkin]

Nice!

[Kevin_Hall]

If you are going to live forever the value of life will be lost. Even the universe won't last forever, unfortunately. I was wondering what Elon Musk thinks of it:
"I’m not actually a huge proponent of longevity," Musk replied. "I do think that having a good life for longer is better — we want to address things that can happen to you when you're old, like dementia, that's important — but I don't know, I definitely don't want to live forever."
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-elon-musk-doesnt-want-to-live-forever-2015-10

[zapatos]

26 minutes ago, Kevin_Hall said:

If you are going to live forever the value of life will be lost.

How so? Can you define what you mean by "value"?

[Peterkin]

40 minutes ago, Kevin_Hall said:

If you are going to live forever the value of life will be lost.

How does time spent on Earth signify in the valuation of a human life? Life has no intrinsic value; value can be lost or gained by quality of life and how it's lived. If a wife-beating thief lives only 30 years, while a medical researcher who coaches underprivileged youth lives to 95, is the latter less worthy than the former? 

Anyway, the ones who live forever probably won't stay on Earth after the Collapse.  

[TheVat]

I remember there was a character on the sci-fi/fantasy series, "Lost," who was immortal, named Richard.  While he never seems like a terribly happy person, he seems to ward off world-weariness by having a strong sense of purpose as a caretaker of an unusual island and its longterm inhabitants.  Because its focus is elsewhere, the series skips over some opportunities to give us a sense of his inner life and how he handles the burden of centuries.  I sometimes found myself wondering if Richard tired of his tasks and obligations, always being sort of a second-in-command and factotum to the mystical force of the island.  Given the temple and the statuary on the island, and Richard's penchant for eyeliner (or maybe his eyes just look that way), I was led to think he had been around since ancient Egyptian civilization.   I would think that kind of duration would produce a being who is not quite human as we understand it.