Peterkin Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 Given enough time, who knows what a human can become? Evolve, devolve or de-evolve? Given enough opportunities, one human might have many different lives and identities. I think all of those scenarios have been explored in science fiction.
CharonY Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 On 12/7/2021 at 9:47 PM, Peterkin said: Given enough time, who knows what a human can become? Evolve, devolve or de-evolve? Expand Well, considering that this thread in the biology section I feel obliged to state that devolving is not a thing in biology. Evolution essentially means change (of the gene pool) and there is not direction attached to it.
Peterkin Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 On 12/7/2021 at 11:02 PM, CharonY said: Evolution essentially means change (of the gene pool) and there is not direction attached to it. Expand Oh. In that case: Given enough time, who knows what a human can become?
iNow Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 On 12/7/2021 at 11:15 PM, Peterkin said: Given enough time, who knows what a human can become? Expand Something else
beecee Posted December 8, 2021 Author Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/7/2021 at 11:17 PM, iNow said: Something else Expand
CharonY Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/7/2021 at 11:15 PM, Peterkin said: Oh. In that case: Given enough time, who knows what a human can become? Expand Assuming that folks become immortal and that there are reductions in offspring, in principle the gene pool would remain (mostly) static. Basically there are not generational changes as there are no generations.
Peterkin Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/8/2021 at 12:33 AM, CharonY said: Basically there are not generational changes as there are no generations. Expand Where in biology is it carved that change has to be generational? Every organism changes over time, from inception to annihilation. Some organisms go through metamorphoses and/or stages in their life cycle; most simply mature, deteriorate and decline. If the decline of aging is halted at some point - and how is that point determined? What's the biological mechanism whereby it is halted? Is it truly halted or merely deflected? What happens instead? If they become immortal past reproductive age, there can be no new offspring except through alternative means: cloning, frozen embryos, DNA splicing.... The old stock would still eventually succumb to attrition - boredom, if not fed-upness would drive them to extreme sports and risk-taking behaviours - and the new ones, howbeit genetically derived from a dwindling populations of immortal dotards, might still have variants artificially added, through splicing, chemical alterations to their in-vitro amniotic fluid and nutrient, or implanted electronics. They would also be raised by immortal dotards who are not birth-parents, and or robots. We don't know what they might become. If the aging is halted while the subjects are still fertile, they would need to restrict their reproductive protocol, which, again, would affect the gene pool differently, going forward from that point. Of course, humans might just continue on continuing on, until they all died of violent clashes over scarce resources.
iNow Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/8/2021 at 12:06 AM, beecee said: Expand My god. It’s full of stars.
CharonY Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/8/2021 at 12:45 AM, Peterkin said: Where in biology is it carved that change has to be generational? Every organism changes over time, from inception to annihilation. Some organisms go through metamorphoses and/or stages in their life cycle; most simply mature, deteriorate and decline. If the decline of aging is halted at some point - and how is that point determined? What's the biological mechanism whereby it is halted? Is it truly halted or merely deflected? What happens instead? Expand It is how we define evolution. Evolution happens at the population level and essentially is just the change of a gene pool over time. Based on these definitions and individual cannot evolve. I.e. evolution is not another term for "change". Moreover, metamorphosis or similar mechanisms do not change the genetics of an organism. We would describe that as developmental changes and not evolution. Individuals can accumulate mutations in various parts of their body over time, of course, but that is more related to aging or related processes. I will also add that while OP was relatively close to science fiction, I think further speculation regarding an immortal society would be much better suited for a speculations thread rather than in the evolution section.
Peterkin Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/8/2021 at 4:13 AM, CharonY said: It is how we define evolution. Expand We. Not the people of the distant future. They may have a quite different definition. On 12/8/2021 at 4:13 AM, CharonY said: Based on these definitions and individual cannot evolve. Expand I already amended my post to the reference that suggest individual evolution (which, incidentally, was a joke, howbeit a misplaced one) to "what a human can become" On 12/8/2021 at 4:13 AM, CharonY said: Moreover, metamorphosis or similar mechanisms do not change the genetics of an organism. Expand No, but it does change the organism; i.e. cause it to become something different. On 12/8/2021 at 4:13 AM, CharonY said: Evolution happens at the population level and essentially is just the change of a gene pool over time Expand Indeed. But with our present capability, we can already affect mutations that nature could not. Presumably, humans of the future will be able to direct their gene pool at will, and over shorter time-spans. On 12/8/2021 at 4:13 AM, CharonY said: Individuals can accumulate mutations in various parts of their body over time, of course, but that is more related to aging or related processes. Expand When discussing "forever", some of that kind of mutation might also be considered. On 12/8/2021 at 4:13 AM, CharonY said: I will also add that while OP was relatively close to science fiction, I think further speculation regarding an immortal society would be much better suited for a speculations thread rather than in the evolution section. Expand Sounds fine.
Kevin_Hall Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/7/2021 at 5:15 PM, zapatos said: How so? Can you define what you mean by "value"? Expand Here I have a simple example. Imagine that you have an unlimited access to money. You will have an exciting emotional life. Only for a year or two. You will lose all the courage to live, your motivation will equal 0. Have you ever thought why reach people do crazy things? The plain example is "Squid Game". People arranged the game because they are just bored of having lots of money - now they need entertainment That's why living forever has no purpose. When you realise that you have only 30-40 years, you WANT to live, you have aims, you have goals. I will attach one interesting video on this topic: The experiment is calles Unverse 25. It's the most famous experiment on rats
zapatos Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/8/2021 at 8:23 PM, Kevin_Hall said: Imagine that you have an unlimited access to money. You will have an exciting emotional life. Only for a year or two. You will lose all the courage to live, your motivation will equal 0. Expand So Bill Gates has lost the courage to live and has motivation equal to 0? I think the evidence tells us otherwise.
Peterkin Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) On 12/8/2021 at 8:23 PM, Kevin_Hall said: . Imagine that you have an unlimited access to money. You will have an exciting emotional life. Only for a year or two. Expand Why do you suppose unlimited access to money provides anyone with an exciting emotional life? In fact, people who amass great fortunes are excited either by the enterprise itself, which they would pursue even if it didn't make them rich, or about the getting of money - not the having. This type of personality does not grow bored with the accumulation of money in a year or two, nor yet a decade or two. In a couple of centuries, maybe: it's not been documented. Their children, being given access to all the money, sometimes enter their money-making parent's enterprise and eventually take over the business, sometimes feel guilty and renounce it, sometimes have other passions to pursue, sometimes are spoiled and unmotivated; this latter group, because they have the leisure and opportunities, indulge in risk-taking activities like drug use and car racing. The mouse utopia experiment didn't provide for birth control and scientific or artistic endeavour... let alone all the yet-to-be-solved problems that exist in the real world. People in our world who live a long time seem able to fill all of that time, so long as their bodies hold up, with purposeful activity - whether it's work, learning and creative efforts, altruism, travel, politics or sports and games - usually a combination of several of those occupations. I can imagine things to try for the next six or seven hundred years, given reasonable health and the material wherewithal. Beyond that, I don't know yet; something will turn up. Edited December 8, 2021 by Peterkin
iNow Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/8/2021 at 8:35 PM, zapatos said: So Bill Gates has lost the courage to live and has motivation equal to 0? I think the evidence tells us otherwise. Expand Yeah, poor Elon Musk is depressed apathy personified and has just given up.
StringJunky Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, iNow said: Yeah, poor Elon Musk is depressed apathy personified and has just given up. Expand What would he be like if he was motivated? LOL
Peterkin Posted December 8, 2021 Posted December 8, 2021 U shudder to imagine! I must repaint my keybpard.... or learn to touchtype.... nah, life's too long and I'm too rich....
Kevin_Hall Posted December 9, 2021 Posted December 9, 2021 (edited) On 12/8/2021 at 8:35 PM, zapatos said: So Bill Gates has lost the courage to live and has motivation equal to 0? I think the evidence tells us otherwise. Expand I mean if you have an unlimited access to smth you don't want this anymore. If you have a lot of money you don't want to earn it, if you have no money your only desire is to have it. That's why Bill Gates does charity and Elon makes rockets. They don't want money, they want something more valuable and global. Now they have another values, more than just money So if you live forever, there is no sence in such life, that's my opinion Edited December 9, 2021 by Kevin_Hall
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