US trend toward authoritarianism? (split from Comparing Corona Virus Success Stories with Abysmal Failures)

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Not really surprising, but more details have emerged how the Trump administration actively inhibited efforts of the CDC to contain the pandemic.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/581322-documents-reveal-new-details-of-trump-political-interference-in-covid

 

Putting it all together: the US was heading towards authoritarianism. 

[iNow]

45 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Putting it all together: the US was heading towards authoritarianism. 

I appreciate and applaud your optimism, but can’t get onboard with your verb being in the last tense there 

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

I appreciate and applaud your optimism, but can’t get onboard with your verb being in the last tense there 

You mean Republican admin at state level?

[iNow]

16 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

You mean Republican admin at state level?

Especially, but not only, there. Yes. 

[StringJunky]

16 minutes ago, iNow said:

Especially, but not only, there. Yes. 

Where else?

[iNow]

41 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Where else?

This is a big question. It’s in the US Congress especially the House, but more so it’s something tens of millions of voters seem to actually want and desire… though they’d never admit and maybe even aren’t self-aware enough to acknowledge this is how they feel.

It’s coming through with how they vote, and how they support specific candidates with these tendencies, and how they attack anyone who votes differently than them online and IRL… complete with making death threats to those who voted to improve infrastructure. It’s happening at school board meetings and in neighborhoods and on apps like Nextdoor where neighbors are supposed to be posting about lemonade stands and selling raffle tickets. We see it in voting restrictions across the states and in the way they’re redrawing voting maps with redistricting and gerrymandering at the heart.

We see it more formally in statehouses, yes, and in local legislatures, but these authoritarian / strong man / “be damned with the law so long as we have more power than the other team” mindsets are everywhere and spreading. 

It’s hard to summarize my point in a simple post, but I keep thinking how Hitler came to office via popular election, too. People voted for him, and the US feels more and more like that, too. 

[MigL]

If you feel strongly enough about it to compare the US to NAZI Germany, it may be time to move.
Canada's nice this time of year; we just had our first snowfall in Southern Ontario, today ( didn't stick ).

[iNow]

43 minutes ago, MigL said:

If you feel strongly enough about it to compare the US to NAZI Germany, it may be time to move.
Canada's nice this time of year; we just had our first snowfall in Southern Ontario, today ( didn't stick ).

It’s about time you caught up to us. It snowed here 2 days ago on Friday. I was just glad it didn’t heil… erm, I mean, hail. 

History doesn’t always repeat, but it often rhymes. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by iNow

[StringJunky]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

This is a big question. It’s in the US Congress especially the House, but more so it’s something tens of millions of voters seem to actually want and desire… though they’d never admit and maybe even aren’t self-aware enough to acknowledge this is how they feel.

It’s coming through with how they vote, and how they support specific candidates with these tendencies, and how they attack anyone who votes differently than them online and IRL… complete with making death threats to those who voted to improve infrastructure. It’s happening at school board meetings and in neighborhoods and on apps like Nextdoor where neighbors are supposed to be posting about lemonade stands and selling raffle tickets. We see it in voting restrictions across the states and in the way they’re redrawing voting maps with redistricting and gerrymandering at the heart.

We see it more formally in statehouses, yes, and in local legislatures, but these authoritarian / strong man / “be damned with the law so long as we have more power than the other team” mindsets are everywhere and spreading. 

It’s hard to summarize my point in a simple post, but I keep thinking how Hitler came to office via popular election, too. People voted for him, and the US feels more and more like that, too. 

I think that too. Something insidious has affected Republican politics. It's not good in large parts the world either. 

[iNow]

15 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I think that too. Something insidious has affected Republican politics. It's not good in large parts the world either. 

The far right with their simple scapegoats and caricatured versions of freedom are certainly on the rise everywhere, and this is quite common historically during times of economic stress and public health issues like pandemics. Basically, this is all very shocking and sad, but hardly surprising. 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

The far right with their simple scapegoats and caricatured versions of freedom are certainly on the rise everywhere, and this is quite common historically during times of economic stress and public health issues like pandemics. Basically, this is all very shocking and sad, but hardly surprising. 

Indeed +1, we're circling the wagons because of the smoke signals, that just say "come on over, we're having a party tonight".

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." - Frank Herbert. 

[CharonY]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

If you feel strongly enough about it to compare the US to NAZI Germany, it may be time to move.
Canada's nice this time of year; we just had our first snowfall in Southern Ontario, today ( didn't stick ).

If anything, I feel that folks do not think about the implications of the regime sufficiently. I found that especially for Americans, the rise of the Nazis was something uniquely German and often the thought is that none of the Allies would be susceptible to any of the ideologies and vulnerabilities of the Weimar Republic. But then, there are obvious weaknesses in virtually all democratic systems, that sometimes only maintain democratic because most actors agreed not to abuse the system. There are a lot of things (internet propaganda amongst those) that have shown serious weaknesses. While the democracies are not breaking (yet) quite a few show creaks. Some younger democracies, such as Hungary and Poland are under serious internal attacks. 

I do not think that because something has worked worked even for a long while is guaranteed to work forever. Societies change and with it there might be new weaknesses to uncover. Folks in the US were seemingly shocked that Trump would be breaking conventions. But as it turned out, there was little to stop him. If the system can creak just by someone not following unwritten rules, it might be necessary to take a good look at what is written and maybe add some writing.

It is not necessarily specific to Nazis either (though most cases appear to be right wing populist movements) but about rise of authoritarianism. 

And just to loop back to COVID-19, it also seems to be the case that these populist movements are also strongly downplaying the risks of the disease.

[swansont]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

The far right with their simple scapegoats and caricatured versions of freedom are certainly on the rise everywhere, and this is quite common historically during times of economic stress and public health issues like pandemics. Basically, this is all very shocking and sad, but hardly surprising. 

The trend toward authoritarianism predates any current economic stress and the pandemic, though. Parts were in place even before TFG ran for office. Politicizing masks and vaccines, and other pandemic-related issues are only a part of the overall picture, and just a convenient tool being used as leverage. 

[iNow]

14 minutes ago, swansont said:

The trend toward authoritarianism predates any current economic stress and the pandemic, though

Indeed, just supercharged and on steroids now with focussed help from nefarious actors with state funding and new digital tools and “dials” allowing marionette level control over what people see and hear. 

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

If anything, I feel that folks do not think about the implications of the regime sufficiently. I found that especially for Americans, the rise of the Nazis was something uniquely German and often the thought is that none of the Allies would be susceptible to any of the ideologies and vulnerabilities of the Weimar Republic. But then, there are obvious weaknesses in virtually all democratic systems, that sometimes only maintain democratic because most actors agreed not to abuse the system. There are a lot of things (internet propaganda amongst those) that have shown serious weaknesses. While the democracies are not breaking (yet) quite a few show creaks. Some younger democracies, such as Hungary and Poland are under serious internal attacks....

https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-American-Model-United-States/dp/0691172420/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?ots=1&tag=thneyo0f-20&linkCode=w50&_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

Nazism triumphed in Germany during the high era of Jim Crow laws in the United States. Did the American regime of racial oppression in any way inspire the Nazis? The unsettling answer is yes. In Hitler's American Model, James Whitman presents a detailed investigation of the American impact on the notorious Nuremberg Laws, the centerpiece anti-Jewish legislation of the Nazi regime. Contrary to those who have insisted that there was no meaningful connection between American and German racial repression, Whitman demonstrates that the Nazis took a real, sustained, significant, and revealing interest in American race policies.

As Whitman shows, the Nuremberg Laws were crafted in an atmosphere of considerable attention to the precedents American race laws had to offer. German praise for American practices, already found in Hitler's Mein Kampf, was continuous throughout the early 1930s, and the most radical Nazi lawyers were eager advocates of the use of American models. But while Jim Crow segregation was one aspect of American law that appealed to Nazi radicals, it was not the most consequential one. Rather, both American citizenship and antimiscegenation laws proved directly relevant to the two principal Nuremberg Laws―the Citizenship Law and the Blood Law. Whitman looks at the ultimate, ugly irony that when Nazis rejected American practices, it was sometimes not because they found them too enlightened, but too harsh....

[exchemist]

15 hours ago, iNow said:

This is a big question. It’s in the US Congress especially the House, but more so it’s something tens of millions of voters seem to actually want and desire… though they’d never admit and maybe even aren’t self-aware enough to acknowledge this is how they feel.

It’s coming through with how they vote, and how they support specific candidates with these tendencies, and how they attack anyone who votes differently than them online and IRL… complete with making death threats to those who voted to improve infrastructure. It’s happening at school board meetings and in neighborhoods and on apps like Nextdoor where neighbors are supposed to be posting about lemonade stands and selling raffle tickets. We see it in voting restrictions across the states and in the way they’re redrawing voting maps with redistricting and gerrymandering at the heart.

We see it more formally in statehouses, yes, and in local legislatures, but these authoritarian / strong man / “be damned with the law so long as we have more power than the other team” mindsets are everywhere and spreading. 

It’s hard to summarize my point in a simple post, but I keep thinking how Hitler came to office via popular election, too. People voted for him, and the US feels more and more like that, too. 

From across the Atlantic it certainly looks like it. The thing that frightens me the most is that one of the major political parties, commanding >40% of the vote, has given up on the democratic system.  To have that proportion of people being constantly told that the last election was stolen, when it quite obviously wasn't, looks like a prelude to ignoring their outcome in future. What then? Civil war? Autocracy?  Yikes! 

Edited November 15, 2021 by exchemist

[CharonY]

19 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Nazism triumphed in Germany during the high era of Jim Crow laws in the United States. Did the American regime of racial oppression in any way inspire the Nazis? The unsettling answer is yes. In Hitler's American Model, James Whitman presents a detailed investigation of the American impact on the notorious Nuremberg Laws, the centerpiece anti-Jewish legislation of the Nazi regime. Contrary to those who have insisted that there was no meaningful connection between American and German racial repression, Whitman demonstrates that the Nazis took a real, sustained, significant, and revealing interest in American race policies.

Yes of course, and when I started to write it, I wanted to mention it, but then forgot. Fundamentally Nazi ideologies were very popular and not only was there overlap and exchange with what was considered scientific thoughts regarding the human race at that time, there was also quite some cross-fertilization. The California school of thought heavily promoted eugenics and saw Germany as a model in their implementation.

It was something that was heavily propagated in the Ivy leagues even way before the rise of the NSDAP.

Cold Spring Harbor hosted the Eugenics Record Office (starting 1910) which gathered biological and social information with the explicit idea to promote racial health and assist in targeted sterilization (and limiting immigration, they heavily lobbied for the Immigration Restriction Act of 1924). 

In other words, much of the rejection of Nazi ideology was borne out of political conflict with the Nazi regime rather than actual disagreement with the ideology. The movement lost popularity as the conflict with the Nazis ramped up. But if the US did not go to war with Germany it would be easy to see how this "science" could have taken a permanent hold. And to a certain degree, some ideas still exist. Some folks associate success with innate talent and link socio-economic status with basically genetic (and ultimately racial) traits. While in recent time that has been changing, that part has tangible influence in laws and law enforcement.

[Peterkin]

Nazi ideals of nationalism and racial purity were - and are - espoused by factions in Britain, the US and Canada. They may not always display the symbols. Though there is periodic resurgence of the whole uniformed, swastika-tattooed, saluting rigamarole in every cohort of young white males, among academics, it's dressed up in philosophical rhetoric; among financiers, it takes on the colouration of economic policy; in religious circles, it thumps people Old Testament doctrine.  

Quote

Neo-Nazism is a global phenomenon, with organized representation in many countries and international networks. It borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including antisemitism, ultranationalism, racism, xenophobia, ableism, homophobia, anti-Romanyism, anti-communism, and creating a "Fourth Reich". Holocaust denial is common in neo-Nazi circles.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism

If you look at that wiki entry, the illustration is a pale foreshadow of Trump's 'very fine people'. In only ten years, their ranks are enormously swollen, and they have gained momentum, confidence and what they consider official recognition.   

It's never been very far beneath the surface.

I think there will soon be a backlash in Europe against at least some of the totalitarian regimes, and that will prompt other regimes to tighten their grip and make the situation even worse. At the same time, popular fear of waves and waves of refuge-seekers will keep on increasing. Civil wars, almost certainly. Martial law in some. Collapse of the EU, certainly. Clashes in the streets of American cities between political factions and police, almost certainly before the next presidential election. Military intervention, probably. Martial law, I don't think so, because I don't think the top brass are in agreement, in spite of Trump's purges - which all have to be undone, and then some - whih will not go over well with the right...

Open civil war, I don't think so. Regional unrest and local armed conflict, definitely.

(Meanwhile, Chine quietly picks all the marbles nobody's watching.)

[MigL]

All of those elements existed in many countries in those times.
Even in Canada, we had the Residential Shool System for native children at the time.

The difference is, that in a lot of countries, these elements simmered under the surface of society; and in some cases, still do.
In Germany ( and some other places ) these elements actually boiled over into mass exterminations and genocide, requiring a world war and millions of casualties to restore  ordered societies.

I find it beyond belief that so many people could have been so easily convinced that hese elements were/are a good thing.
It would be interesting to hear the opinions of a 1930s era NAZI, understand their motivations, and see where we are in danger of repeating those mistakes.

[Peterkin]

14 minutes ago, MigL said:

I find it beyond belief that so many people could have been so easily convinced that hese elements were/are a good thing.

They didn't need much convincing; they were getting reinforcement for what they already felt, what was inherent in their history and culture. Very much like Americans today.

20 minutes ago, MigL said:

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of a 1930s era NAZI, understand their motivations, and see where we are in danger of repeating those mistakes.

No need for time-travel. They're right here:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/8/15/16144070/psychology-alt-right-unite-the-right

Quote

It’s easy to treat people like them as straw men: one-dimensional, backward beings fueled by hatred and ignorance. But if we want to prevent the spread of extremist, supremacist views, we need to understand how these views form and why they stick in the minds of some people.

 

The Vox article is worth reading, btw.

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, MigL said:

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of a 1930s era NAZI, understand their motivations, and see where we are in danger of repeating those mistakes.

Well, there are a lot of interviews and documents available, too. Moreover, it was not that long ago. After all, the end of the war did not mean that suddenly folks changed their beliefs. There was a vested interest to downplay their ideology, of course. But with distance pretty much the same sentiment started boiling up again. A recent approach in Germany start by diminishing the role of Nazism in German history, which for me, being educated in a German public school, is insane to hear.

The general motivations have barely changed throughout human history I would guess. Fear from the others, using that fear as an unifier, play to a "strong man" archetype, use the others as scapegoats for internal failures and so on.

What basically has changed (to use a very broad brush) in history seems to be who we designate as the other. Depending on period and group it is often geography, then religion and after the age of enlightenment, race.

 

[Peterkin]

39 minutes ago, CharonY said:

What basically has changed (to use a very broad brush) in history seems to be who we designate as the other.

Much of that is due to rivalry for land and resources, for economic and political influence. Very few who enjoys privilege are willing to give any of it up;  when power and wealth are shared with others, each share is smaller; if egalitarian democracy prevails, soon all class advantage disappears.    

There is a large dollop of self-interest involved: those whom we wish to conquer, rob or exploit, we first relegate to a lower form of life than we consider ourselves. They're only savages, barbarians, pagans or whatever, therefore our natural, perhaps even preordained prey.  

Latterly, there is also an element of guilt such ancient imperialists and monarchists probably did not experience. Philosophical ideas change; the climate in which one's moral sense develops has a strong effect on one's attitude. It's hard to forgive those whom one has wronged - even indirectly through benefit from the wrong done by our forebears. The very existence of our victims is an accusation. And a source of fear, obviously:  if we allow them a voice, the accusation becomes explicit - as demonstrated by BLM. If we allow them to wield power, we may be subject to retribution. 

[MigL]

I, OTOH, see a difference.
It seems as if most, if not all, of German society ( excluding of course, the persecuted and exterminated ) was ready to follow their leader's ideology, even sending their kids fo fight in the war.
Italian Fashists, not so much; they simply went along for the ride until the tides of war changed, then they switched sides.
Even the US, over the past 5 years, although heading in the wrong direction, it is still only a minority that support MAGA/Trump.
If half the eligible voters ( 240 million ), voted in the 2016 election, and roughly half of those voted for D Trump, that gives roughly 1/6-1/5 of the total US population supporting D Trump; almost a fringe element ( although it increased slightly in the 2020 election ).

11 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Very few who enjoys privilege are willing to give any of it up;  when power and wealth are shared with others, each share is smaller; if egalitarian democracy prevails, soon all class advantage disappears.    

You seem to think these kind of things ( totalitarian, auhoritanianism ) only happens in fashist/capitalist states.
Tell me how equal were/are people under Communism ?
Or do you want to compare the number of people that their ideologies have killed ?
( just Mao Zedong killed more people than the NAZIs in WW2, don't even need Stalin and Pol Pot's numbers )

Ideology can be a dangerous thing; all people who have one, are convinced it is right, and will do whatever it takes to acheive that end.

[Peterkin]

53 minutes ago, MigL said:

You seem to think these kind of things ( totalitarian, auhoritanianism ) only happens in fashist/capitalist states.
 

What makes me 'seem' to think that? Totalitarianism wears whatever label gets it into power. Miltarism, xenophobia, rigid class hierarchy and persecution of minorities can exist under any banner, any proclaimed ideology - even if the regime loudly protests its dedication to a democratic or egalitarian ideal, even holds 'elections' with all the trappings, the reality underneath can be quite different.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47492747

Quote

Voting for the Supreme People's Assembly (SPA) is mandatory and there's no choice of candidates. Any kind of dissent is unheard of.

Turnout is always close to 100% and approval for the governing alliance is unanimous.

Quote

The Iraqi president, Saddam Hussein, topped his personal best election performance by securing 100% of the vote in yesterday's referendum, election officials said today.

Different labels, same methods, same outcomes.

 

53 minutes ago, MigL said:

Tell me how equal were/are people under Communism ?

They were not and they did not, and nor does any other nation now, afaik, live under any of the current or 20th century versions of communism. Though billions live under "Communist" flags, they are not living in communal arrangements. 

53 minutes ago, MigL said:

Or do you want to compare the number of people that their ideologies have killed ?

Ideologies don't kill people. People kill people. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Peterkin

[iNow]

7 hours ago, exchemist said:

To have that proportion of people being constantly told that the last election was stolen, when it quite obviously wasn't, looks like a prelude to ignoring their outcome in future. What then? Civil war?

Sadly, the side believing and spreading these lies also tends to be the side that stockpiles guns by the hundreds and ammunition by the hundreds of thousands.