How we think Jesus will return verses how he actually will return

[iNow]

25 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I hate to do this, but why is their faith, wrongly placed? Since all evidence confirms that their faith was wrong? 

Their faith told them too that Jesus' return was imminent. Refresh my memory... when did said return actually happen?

[Peterkin]

22 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Every empire, both grows and dies..

Only, the imperialists never expect their empire to die. They have the example of all the empires before them, that had overreached its ambition, overpopulated its territory, was overcome by another empire or rotted from within through corruption, and collapse. Yet each new emergent empire believes itself invulnerable: "That can't happen here." "We won't make that mistake." "We're smarter and stronger and better than they were." "We have technology."

That's a misplaced faith which seems to be common to all civilizations. Another is their faith in their gods, their kings, their ideology, their economic wealth, their military might - or whatever they worship in each particular funhouse mirror.

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

when did said return actually happen?

Maybe he's come and gone several times, in the night.

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

Their faith told them too that Jesus' return was imminent. Refresh my memory... when did said return actually happen?

When is Jesus more real? 

[Phi for All]

23 hours ago, Arikel88 said:

He will returna s thieve at night when people will not pay attention like their normal habits.

We're told not to trust thieves in some of the earliest Abrahamic writings. There is even a commandment allegedly from their god himself condemning thieves, so this seems like a poor way to introduce the return of Jesus. 

I also wonder if Jesus will be prepared to bypass all the technology we now have to help us pay attention. Our normal habits have become fairly paranoid.

[Peterkin]

21 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

When is Jesus more real? 

Christmas morning, when the greedy children rip all that gaudy paper off their toys. "Hurray for baby Jesus!" they prey.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

When is Jesus more real? 

It seems the answer is always "tomorrow"

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Maybe he's come and gone several times, in the night.

That's what she said /rimshot

[Peterkin]

A second, perhaps more relevant question might be: If he does come again, what will his attitude be and how will the 'faithful' react?

I'm pretty sure he'd roll up a wet robe and flail vigorously about the Christian theme parks - all of which seem to feature ancient Jews - and he might not thrilled with all the treasure stored up in the Vatican. And they, in turn, probably wouldn't heed his admonishments any more than then last time.

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, iNow said:

Their faith told them too that Jesus' return was imminent. Refresh my memory... when did said return actually happen?

Jesus was a madman in the correct time, he returns every year only to find, the time is not right...

Quote

 

THE MADMAN----Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!"---As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated?---Thus they yelled and laughed

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him---you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us---for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars---and yet they have done it themselves.

It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"

 

 

There will always be another madman and sometimes, they're understood...

[iNow]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Jesus was a madman in the correct time, he returns every year only to find, the time is not right...

Just so we're clear, I don't find this to be a valid answer to the actual question I posed. 

[dimreepr]

39 minutes ago, iNow said:

Just so we're clear, I don't find this to be a valid answer to the actual question I posed. 

How many religion's does it take for a prophecy to come true?

[joigus]

Why would Jesus return verses? Because of spelling mistakes?

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Just so we're clear, I don't find this to be a valid answer to the actual question I posed. 

I tried to treat the OP as a valid questions, but it's too difficult to get a handle on. I made some guesses as to the meaning.

How do I think Jesus will return? (But I don't think he was ever here, so why should I think he'll return at all, never mind how.)

What's my expectation compared to other people's? (Other people seem to have so many and varied expectations, there is no comparison between any of them and my own lack of expectation.)

Are modern Christians locked in the same exclusive mind-set as were the 1st c BC Israelites: unable to accept a messiah not of their own design? (I have no idea what's in the heads of modern Christians: most of it doesn't seem remotely connected with the teachings of the Jesus I'v read about.)

So, being unable to fit the question to any version of reality with which I'm familiar, I decided to treat it, instead, as an exercise in speculative theology.  

I don't know what a valid answer would look like.

[iNow]

48 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

How many religion's does it take for a prophecy to come true?

No idea. Still irrelevant to my point. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:38 AM, Phi for All said:

Matt. 1:18-20 tells us Jesus didn't have a birth father from the tribe of Judah also descended from King Solomon and King David, which were the prerequisites for the Jewish Messiah, as recorded elsewhere in the Bible.

I've always been curious about the reaction to someone claiming to be Jesus come back for the second time. Plenty have made the claim over the centuries, so wouldn't it require some sort of evidence, like walking on water or turning the water into wine and then walking on it? And if this latest Jesus could show miraculous powers on command, in a testable, reproduceable, and predictable way, then does anyone need faith anymore?

Fairly easy to do. A bit harder but much for effective if the conditions  are right is to wear boots with steel blades attached and add the ability to glide on it.

 

On 11/23/2021 at 11:38 AM, Phi for All said:

Matt. 1:18-20 tells us Jesus didn't have a birth father from the tribe of Judah also descended from King Solomon and King David, which were the prerequisites for the Jewish Messiah, as recorded elsewhere in the Bible.

I've always been curious about the reaction to someone claiming to be Jesus come back for the second time. Plenty have made the claim over the centuries, so wouldn't it require some sort of evidence, like walking on water or turning the water into wine and then walking on it? And if this latest Jesus could show miraculous powers on command, in a testable, reproduceable, and predictable way, then does anyone need faith anymore?

At that point it's no longer religion. It's in the realm of science.

On 11/25/2021 at 12:37 AM, Peterkin said:

Assuming there was a real person named Jesus (or something like) and he was (something like) the man those four books (plus several more apocryphal ones) were written about, why should he come back? The people he met on this planet were not so nice to him that he'd want to visit them again. It's a big universe - assuming the whole universe has just the one creator, rather than each galaxy having its own, each ruling a separate fiefdom.... *

So, anyway, depending on whether his dad rules one galaxy of all of them, Jesus has a choice of a bazillion and a gazillion planets inhabited by intelligent life to choose from. Pretty good chance, if they're intelligent, they all need saving. He won't be coming around here again until we're long gone and forgotten and the earthworms have developed city-states, money and organized religion, with giant statues.   

*I like that idea, actually. They have conferences sometimes, like the G20 or the climate summits, where the gods get together an bullshit about their unkept promises over excellent victuals and potables. Every now and then, an alliance is formed or a war declared, and then galaxies clash. Spectacular from a distance of a few million years, but no fun be in. 

I think you might be underestimating Jesus a little here. If St. Nick can cover all of Earth in one night, bringing gifts to all the children as appropriate to what they have become accustomed to, an infinitely greater being with omnipresence would manage all you've mentioned above, and more, without problem.

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If St. Nick can cover all of Earth in one night, bringing gifts to all the children as appropriate to what they have become accustomed to, an infinitely greater being with omnipresence would manage all you've mentioned above, and more, without problem.

Sure, but why should he want to?

And remember, in order to spend the requisite maturation period for each species to become their messiah, he would have to put in millions or billions of years in recordable mortal time, while humans are back here, busily cutting the planet out from under themselves.

On 11/23/2021 at 10:38 AM, Phi for All said:

Matt. 1:18-20 tells us Jesus didn't have a birth father from the tribe of Judah also descended from King Solomon and King David, which were the prerequisites for the Jewish Messiah, as recorded elsewhere in the Bible.

It wouldn't have been an issue: Joseph is the father of record, and they have no DNA kits. The problem arises as to how either Joseph or Mary, given their humble backgrounds, can be linked to the house of King Solomon, or how David, the shepherd boy, could have descended from kings. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

33 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

And remember, in order to spend the requisite maturation period for each species to become their messiah, he would have to put in millions or billions of years in recordable mortal time, while humans are back here, busily cutting the planet out from under themselves.

 

When you can be as omnipresent as required...how is this difficult?

Also why would He choose to to be the mortal Messiah for each species? Don't forget He works in mysterious ways.

33 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Sure, but why should he want to?

For all the questionable things done in his name...by "official accounts" He seems like a pretty good guy.

i'm starting to think you lack a little faith...

Edited December 18, 2021 by J.C.MacSwell

[Peterkin]

10 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

When you can be as omnipresent as required...how is this difficult?

God can. Jesus can't. The whole point of the messianic menifestation is to actually take up flesh-and-blood residence in the body of the mortal species you're assigned to redeem - no leaves of absence, no coffee breaks, not even astral travel while being tortured. You have to go through diaper changes, teething, measles, sibling rivalry, getting your knuckles rapped by the village teacher, disputes with the clergy, puberty and zits, fights with his father-of-record about career options - the whole mortal process, in real time. 

10 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

For all the questionable things done in his name...by "official accounts" He seems like a pretty good guy.

Get crucified again, just on the off chance of setting the record straight? For whom?  I'd rather assume he's not an idiot.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Peterkin

[J.C.MacSwell]

27 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

God can. Jesus can't.

There you go...underestimating Him again.

[Peterkin]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

There you go...underestimating Him again

I don't think so. It's not a question of powers or abilities; it's the nature of the mission. He's given some inconsequential little miracles to impress the rubes*, but he can't get out of the obligation to redeem them precisely by becoming one of them: mortal, temporal flesh. 

* Walk on water one time, sure; flood the Sahara - no way! Cure a leper, okay; cure leprosy - not a chance!  Feed a crowd fish sandwiches one afternoon - no solving homelessness and hunger for the underclass. Bring one guy back to life for show; but no handing hall passes for original sin.

[J.C.MacSwell]

35 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Get crucified again, just on the off chance of setting the record straight? For whom?  I'd rather assume he's not an idiot.

Jesus can be crucified, stabbed, shot, and beat to death, more times and on more planets than you can imagine...every day before you've even had breakfast...all because He loves everybody.

[Peterkin]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Jesus can be crucified, stabbed, shot, and beat to death, more times and on more planets than you can imagine...every day before you've even had breakfast...all because He loves everybody.

Exactly! That's what I've been saying: he's busy saving all the other dominant species on planets capable of growing fruit. But there are specific rules to how that's to be done. Fixing a misunderstanding or misrepresentation that took place after his ascension is not part of the assignment, and he's neither stupid nor petty enough to return and do the whole execution thing over again, when there's no redemption in it. Maybe he'll come back for the rats, when it's their turn to have gone astray.

[ahmet]

well, 

more than the exact queries asked & discussed under this thread, I came to one or more very interesting point(s) and ask question(s) within the scope of this thread.

--- under the condition that jesus is expected (or being considered so), can we say that christian world was doubtful across something like their status  through the negation of assuming that islam religion would be (ever) wrong selection? (Because, that is a well known paradigm amongst almost all of muslims)

--- is christian world also doubtful across the idea which states that islamic - holy quran should be not considered a book that states corrrect explanations ?

...

Edited December 18, 2021 by ahmet

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, ahmet said:

well, 

more than the exact queries asked & discussed under this thread, I came to one or more very interesting point(s) and ask question(s) within the scope of this thread.

--- under the condition that jesus is expected (or being considered so), can we say that christian world was doubtful across something like their status  through the negation of assuming that islam religion would be (ever) wrong selection? (Because, that is a well known paradigm amongst almost all of muslims)

--- is christian world also doubtful across the idea which states that islamic - holy quran should be not considered a book that states corrrect explanations ?

...

The same idea will be understood time and time again, because it makes sense at the time and because it's a simple idea; be nice...

No wonder so many have predicted, a return to understanding when the time is right.

I forsee a future when being nice to other's, is good for me... 

Why does it matter who told me?

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, ahmet said:

under the condition that jesus is expected (or being considered so), can we say that christian world was doubtful across something like their status  through the negation of assuming that islam religion would be (ever) wrong selection? (Because, that is a well known paradigm amongst almost all of muslims)

At the time Jesus is chronicled operating in the mortal world, Islam had not yet been invented. Where he is supposed to have lived, there was only Judaism and the imported pagan belief of the Roman occupying army. Next door was Egypt, where the Romans had well established their rule and the Greeks before them - so the native religion was all muddled up with their beliefs. There was no "Christian world" - and wouldn't be for about 300 years, when Emperor Constantine decreed Christianity the official religion of Rome - and as a consequence, eventually all of the vassal states. It took another few centuries for Christianity to spread through the empire. Later, the heirs of the Roman Empire - chiefly Spain, Portugal, France and England - imposed it on all of their conquests. You could say there was a 'Christianized World' by about 1600 AD.

Islam only dates back to the early 600's and Muslim nations didn't establish empires until the latter part of the first millennium AD and the middle of the second. 

The Christians and Muslims were not so much 'doubtful' about each as constantly at war with each other. Not over religion - over territory and dominion.

3 hours ago, ahmet said:

-- is christian world also doubtful across the idea which states that islamic - holy quran should be not considered a book that states corrrect explanations ?

It cannot be considered holy by Christians, as it doesn't have Jesus and his redemptive power at the center of it, and that's what their whole belief is based on. Muhammad Accepted the Christian and Hebrew holy books, since they held some power in the region before he made his own religion: I understand he hoped to be at peace with "people of the book". But that could never happen, while they all wanted the same land and resources.      

[ahmet]

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

At the time Jesus is chronicled operating in the mortal world, Islam had not yet been invented

this is in fact, not a correct usage of accepted reality amongst Islamic world. Because Islam was in fact available at that time ,when islam had not been available yet.

Because according to common sense amongst muslims, christianity was Islam in those days. 

it seems you confuse something

Islam is not an invention (like I commonly do)  and it has not belonged to Muhammad (s.a.w.) 

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The same idea will be understood time and time again, because it makes sense at the time and because it's a simple idea; be nice...

peheh   you blame me with providing simple ideas. 

I could choke you via my strong mathematical formulas ,eh    

(but forget it for a while, I won't do that for now   maybe later I could.

Edited December 18, 2021 by ahmet