Are there more than 2 sexes?

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I think I would definitely try to see how far "beyond (my) control" the situation was by insisting on being referred to the way I prefer.

You might be able to influence the way you were referred to. But if it was me, that would be a hollow victory. What trans people really want is to be seen as a woman or man, and insisting won't get you that. 

I've always wondered what the rules are (if there are any) about notifying someone that you are trans, before starting a sexual relationship with them. Morally, I think that you would certainly have a right to know. I certainly wouldn't like being decieved myself. ( and not saying is deception in my book, because my assumption would be that someone is genetically the same sex as the one that they present)

[iNow]

27 minutes ago, mistermack said:

In scientific terms, sex is determined by the type of gametes that you produce. Males produce tiny sperm, females produce much larger eggs.

Well, I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. 

Our binary classifications are not just arbitrary, but rather often inaccurate. Suggesting otherwise shows bias in the speaker/author, not rigidity in the sex classifications across the animal kingdom. 

[mistermack]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

Well, I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

You should be used to that by now. But it would be a first for me, I'm nevver rong.

[iNow]

30 minutes ago, MigL said:

Science always talks about circles and spheres, when we know no such thing as a perfect circle or perfect sphere exists in nature.
They are a 'spectrum' of shapes.

In which case, the person pretending that there are, in fact, such things as "perfect spheres" is the one who is mistaken. Same applies here, and sex is even more variable than spheres in nature. 

The biases on this topic are strong. This seems so mind numbingly obvious that it shouldn't even require explanation, IMO. 

[StringJunky]

This explains the different systems used in nature:

 https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/im-xy-know-sex-determination-systems-101/

Edited November 24, 2021 by StringJunky

[studiot]

I fully admit I am far from an expert in this subject.

But it seems to me that those who are much more expert than I am have yet to fully explore and understand the situation.

This conference article in SCIAM is most interesting.
In particular it seems that many definitions have been changing rapidly these days, particularly in the light of new chemical and biological discoveries.
The article also discusses the medical implications of the subject.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-mixed-sex-biology/

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by studiot
spelling

[swansont]

8 hours ago, mistermack said:

This is extremeley loopy logic. You are just assuming that a genetic malfunction amounts to a different sex.

No, I looked at the definition you offered. Your sex is the sex chromosome. There are more than 2 possibilities.

As I said, you need to revise your definition.

8 hours ago, mistermack said:

 

Well, look it up, and you will find that it doesn't. In scientific terms, sex is determined by the type of gametes that you produce. Males produce tiny sperm, females produce much larger eggs. And that classifies both xxy and xyy as males. There are two type of gametes in humans, and that means there are two sexes. 

There you go. New definition. 

What if an individual produces both? (chimera)

What about “males” suffering from azoospermia (they do not produce sperm)?

7 hours ago, studiot said:

I fully admit I am far from an expert in this subject.

I am also far from an expert.

But…

finding flaws in the simplistic definitions offered up to show two sexes hasn’t proven to be difficult thus far.

I know from my experience that physics is far more complicated and subtle than what you learn in high school, so it’s not difficult to imagine that the same holds for biology.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

In which case, the person pretending that there are, in fact, such things as "perfect spheres" is the one who is mistaken. Same applies here, and sex is even more variable than spheres in nature. 

The biases on this topic are strong. This seems so mind numbingly obvious that it shouldn't even require explanation, IMO. 

On this subject, most people are entrenched, naturally, because that is what we have been taught and exposed to. Most adults are a lost cause in accepting this, I think, and the educative focus should lie with guiding the impressionable generations. Change comes through children, not adults... that's why change takes such a long time.

Edited November 24, 2021 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

35 minutes ago, swansont said:

No, I looked at the definition you offered. Your sex is the sex chromosome. There are more than 2 possibilities.

As I said, you need to revise your definition.

I didn't offer that. It's you who needs to recheck. I would say that your sex IS defined by your chromosomes. There are more than two combinations. But there are still only male and female, at genetic level in humans. Genetic disorders do not constitute extra sexes. If you want to argue that they do, you should produce evidence for that. Or give your OWN definition of what constitutes a separate sex. 

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, mistermack said:

I didn't offer that. It's you who needs to recheck. I would say that your sex IS defined by your chromosomes. There are more than two combinations. But there are still only male and female, at genetic level in humans. Genetic disorders do not constitute extra sexes. If you want to argue that they do, you should produce evidence for that. Or give your OWN definition of what constitutes a separate sex. 

That's what are they are called today: disorders. That may well change.

[mistermack]

I should re-iterate that I'm not arguing that there are only two sexual IDENTITIES. I said much earlier, genetic sex, and sexual identity are obviously two different things. It would be easier for everyone if that was not the case, but that's the reality. And I wish everyone well, who finds themselves with a different feeling of sexual identity from what they were assigned at birth. I've seen a good friend struggle with it over the years, and I wish him and all others all the satisfaction and happiness that they can achieve for themselves. 

5 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

That's what are they are called today: disorders. That may well change.

What you call it doesn't change the facts though. Which is the root of the problem. 

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I should re-iterate that I'm not arguing that there are only two sexual IDENTITIES. I said much earlier, genetic sex, and sexual identity are obviously two different things. It would be easier for everyone if that was not the case, but that's the reality. And I wish everyone well, who finds themselves with a different feeling of sexual identity from what they were assigned at birth. I've seen a good friend struggle with it over the years, and I wish him and all others all the satisfaction and happiness that they can achieve for themselves. 

What you call it doesn't change the facts though. Which is the root of the problem. 

The problem is our definitions are becoming increasingly out of date with new data. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by StringJunky

[swansont]

52 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I didn't offer that. It's you who needs to recheck. I would say that your sex IS defined by your chromosomes. There are more than two combinations. But there are still only male and female, at genetic level in humans. Genetic disorders do not constitute extra sexes. If you want to argue that they do, you should produce evidence for that.

What if you have both XX and XY?

52 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Or give your OWN definition of what constitutes a separate sex. 

It’s not my thread. Part of this is an exercise in “you need to define your terms in order to have a proper discussion”

 

[beecee]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

The problem is our definitions are becoming increasingly out of date with new data. 

That's called science. 😉

[MigL]

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

And if a fellow worker chooses to refer to you as she/her despite your preference for he/him, even after being repeatedly corrected, what would you say to them if they replied, "You can't tell me what I have to perceive you as, that just gets my back up"?

I would remind them that I resemble a typical male, although I've been called a 'she' when I dressed as a woman for Halloween ( one guy even bought me a drink ).
If they chose to be rude, and not heed my suggestion, there's no law against that ( yet , apparently ); and rude people seem to be proliferating ( at least in the US ). I cannot change , or force, their perception of reality.

 

3 hours ago, iNow said:

In which case, the person pretending that there are, in fact, such things as "perfect spheres" is the one who is mistaken. Same applies here, and sex is even more variable than spheres in nature. 

The biases on this topic are strong. This seems so mind numbingly obvious that it shouldn't even require explanation, IMO. 

And when your doctor tells you to go for a mammogram, because you are a spectrum of genders, I'll believe that SOME differences, or criterea, are not binary.
And if you should require an explanation, I will take the time to explain your biases to you, so you're more aware of them 🙂 .

[StringJunky]

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

I would remind them that I resemble a typical male, although I've been called a 'she' when I dressed as a woman for Halloween ( one guy even bought me a drink ).
If they chose to be rude, and not heed my suggestion, there's no law against that ( yet , apparently ); and rude people seem to be proliferating ( at least in the US ). I cannot change , or force, their perception of reality.

 

And when your doctor tells you to go for a mammogram, because you are a spectrum of genders, I'll believe that SOME differences, or criterea, are not binary.
And if you should require an explanation, I will take the time to explain your biases to you, so you're more aware of them 🙂 .

https://www.breastcancer.org/research-news/men-at-high-risk-benefit-from-mammograms

[MigL]

Darn it, Stringy, always my kryptonite ...

Very well, I'll change that to
When your wife is told by her doctor to get screened for testicular cancer.

[StringJunky]

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

Darn it, Stringy, always my kryptonite ...

Very well, I'll change that to
When your wife is told by her doctor to get screened for testicular cancer.

Someone like the supermodel Hanne Gaby Odiele, who had hers removed because it was assessed that she should be a girl.

Quote

When Hanne Gaby Odiele was two weeks old, she developed an infection. Her parents took her to the hospital near their native Kortrijk, Belgium; the doctors did some blood work—and then they informed Franke and Annie Termote that their little boy was going to be just fine.

Boy? They were flabbergasted. The blood tests revealed that their child had a condition known as androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS)—while she was genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome, she was resistant to male hormones, or androgens. Hanne was born with internal testes, and without a uterus or ovaries.

https://www.vogue.com/article/hanne-gaby-odiele-model-intersex-interview

If she had been allowed to keep hers, she would have been a candidate for testicular cancer. Would you like a spade?

Edited November 24, 2021 by StringJunky

[Ken Fabian]

Is an hermaphrodite form that combines both male and female a different sex? Is an asexual form - neither male nor female - a different sex or not a sex at all?

Both occur widely in nature.

Epigenetic processes seem to blur any absolute made-from-male+female Chromosomes distinction.

Parasitism (and symbiosis) can involve reproduction that is absolutely dependent on other species, including co-opting the biological systems of a host; might it be narrowness of definition that names the hosts as different species rather than, in specific circumstances, a third sex of the parasite?

[koti]

I’m really eager to find out the answer to the OP question. 

[mistermack]

12 minutes ago, koti said:

I’m really eager to find out the answer to the OP question.

There are definitely no more than two. 

 

 

Answers, that is.

[MigL]

6 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Answers, that is.

Exactly.
Anywhere between xero and near infinite, depending of course, on the criterion, or criteria, being used.
If gender/sex is just a personal subjective opinion, there are over 7 billion of them.

Opinions, that is.

[iNow]

Let me take this opportunity to remind readers of some useful factoids shared recently in another thread.

They’re insightful when attempting to accurately answer the thread question and when pushing back on the many remedially inaccurate responses being shared here with great certitude and unfounded confidence. 
 

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/125880-jordan-petersons-ideas-on-politis/?do=findComment&comment=1190758

Quote

Going back to clownfishes, the gonads of functional males has both testicular as well as ovarian tissues. The latter is in immature state but can mature rather quickly to create functional ovaries (based on some neuronal pathways which are only partially explored IIRC).

So even if go down deeper into the tissue and cellular level, the distinction between male and female is quite fuzzy as the tissue can change from one to the other. Given all those biological mechanisms and fuzziness it simply does not make sense to even presume that these categories are universal. Rather, they apply within a certain context 

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/125880-jordan-petersons-ideas-on-politis/?do=findComment&comment=1190791

Quote

Obviously in an XY mating system, most individuals fall in to either XX (female) or XY (male). But one in 58 individuals is born with an intersex condition, and can be XXY, X0, XXX, or a myriad of other conditions that result in an intermediate phenotype. 

I just don’t know who to believe... These quotes from our resident biology experts who’ve worked in the field for years and years and years and who are massively clear on the vagaries and messiness in biological classifications, or the people who are forcefully arguing an untenable position based on outdated 6th grade level understandings of biology and misplaced preconceptions. 

It’s such a hard choice. 🙄

4 hours ago, StringJunky said:

On this subject, most people are entrenched, naturally, because that is what we have been taught and exposed to.

QFT

[MigL]

Fine. Let's discuss clownfish ( or even lobsters if you like ).

How do researchers know at what stage they are male ? And when they become female ?
IOW, what is the criteria they use for classifying them as different genders in those differing stages.

Shurely they must use a criterion that allows them to differentiate between the female state and the male state.
If so, then there must be at least one, or some criteria that allows for differentiation of gender in all species.

You insist that there is no difference, so you shouldn't be able to tell them apart, yet you can easily tell when a clownfish goes from male to female ? Are you saying "There is no difference between these two rubber balls; the red one is exactly the same as the blue one." ???
You're gonna have to put a little more effort into that explanation.

BTW grade 11 level Biology, for me 😁 .

Edited November 24, 2021 by MigL

[StringJunky]

27 minutes ago, MigL said:

Fine. Let's discuss clownfish ( or even lobsters if you like ).

How do researchers know at what stage they are male ? And when they become female ?
IOW, what is the criteria they use for classifying them as different genders in those differing stages.

Shurely they must use a criterion that allows them to differentiate between the female state and the male state.
If so, then there must be at least one, or some criteria that allows for differentiation of gender in all species.

You insist that there is no difference, so you shouldn't be able to tell them apart, yet you can easily tell when a clownfish goes from male to female ? Are you saying "There is no difference between these two rubber balls; the red one is exactly the same as the blue one." ???
You're gonna have to put a little more effort into that explanation.

BTW grade 11 level Biology, for me 😁 .

Here's the process.:

Quote

Reproduction
In a group of anemonefish, a strict dominance hierarchy exists. The largest and most aggressive female is found at the top. Only two anemonefish, a male and a female, in a group reproduce – through external fertilization. Anemonefish are protandrous sequential hermaphrodites, meaning they develop into males first, and when they mature, they become females. If the female anemonefish is removed from the group, such as by death, one of the largest and most dominant males becomes a female. The remaining males move up a rank in the hierarchy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphiprioninae