War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[MigL]

24 minutes ago, Arete said:

If they sent me a Glock, a box of 9mm rounds

I'd prefer a Benelli M4 in a home invasion situation.
Only because the Franchi SPAS 12 is prohibited in Canada.

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

As far as Zelensky is concerned, I think the media adoration of him is pathetic. He's stupidly led his country into a disastrous war that they can't win. Bravery and stupidity have always overlapped, and he's right on the extreme edge of stupidity. 

If I'm in a bar, and a huge guy four times my size  at the next table tells me to move, while waving a huge gun in my face, I move. Even if he has no right to give me orders. Especially if I have all of my family with me. 

Zelensky is like the one idiot in a million, who would refuse, and end up getting his family killed. That's stupidity, not bravery. Bravery with other peoples' lives is not bravery at all in my book. When their lives depend on your decisions, it calls for intelligence and caring, not "bravery" and he has shown none.  

So basically you have a bad opinion of him that you want to spin as fact. I haven't seen you once support any of these attacks on his person, and you try to argue that he's an idiot for being a leader who won't back down. I don't mind you having dumb reasoning, but it's so obvious you can't support it with more than hot air from your waving hands, and while your agenda may not be obvious, it still has a smell to it that seems on brand for you. Just sayin'.

[J.C.MacSwell]

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

I'd prefer a Benelli M4 in a home invasion situation.
Only because the Franchi SPAS 12 is prohibited in Canada.

Which kind of reminds me of a thought I've had the other day seeing the Ukrainian resistance...I wonder how much and how long this will set back reasonable restrictions on private ownership of assault weapons in the U.S.?

[SergUpstart]

Biden allowed American companies, as an exception, to accept payments from Russia to service foreign debt. Does he think Putin is going to pay???

The assets of the Russian central bank have been blocked for 320 G$. And Russian companies owe about 480 G$ to American and European banks. A bad default is brewing.

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, Arete said:

Well, if it were giving up a stool in a bar, there is virtually no cost beyond minor inconvenience and perceived loss of status. Given the cost of engaging the bully over something that has little value to me, I wouldn't consider it. 

Exactly. A little bit of reality amongst the fantasies posted on here. 

If Zelensky had done a deal four weeks ago, none of this would be happening now. But surrounded by hawks, and egged on by NATO chiefs with their OWN agenda, that has nothing to do with the Ukrainian public, or their well being, he went the wrong way.

NATO has never had any interest in the people of Ukraine. They just want to keep squeezing Russia. How many countries does NATO need to fight Russia? Just the USA on it's own is more than enough. 

If Mexico was going to sign up to a military pact, with Russia and China, do you think the USA would just mind their own business and do nothing? 

Cuba has already proved that it would not. 

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, mistermack said:

If Zelensky had done a deal four weeks ago, none of this would be happening now.

Please provide some evidence.

[Arete]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I'd prefer a Benelli M4 in a home invasion situation.
Only because the Franchi SPAS 12 is prohibited in Canada.

Realistically, in my house it's gonna be a Mossberg 500 loaded with Winchester #4, because that's what's in the safe. But if Andrzej Duda wants to give me a Mig 29 I'd do my best with it. 

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

I don't mind you having dumb reasoning,

Calling it dumb doesn't make it a fact. A specific reply to a specific point might be worth my attention, but I'm afraid it's you that's doing the hand-waving. 

[SergUpstart]

10 minutes ago, mistermack said:

If Zelensky had done a deal four weeks ago, none of this would be happening now. But surrounded by hawks, and egged on by NATO chiefs with their OWN agenda, that has nothing to do with the Ukrainian public, or their well being, he went the wrong way.

If Zelensky had not concentrated a 120,000-strong strike force in the Donbas, this would not have happened. On February 15, Putin withdrew 10,000 soldiers from the borders of Ukraine, Zelensky did not withdraw a single one, if he had withdrawn at least 1,000 soldiers, he would have shown his desire for peace
And today Zelinsky's psychological is broken 

 

[TheVat]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

It's a good analogy. I did nothing to disturb the guy in the bar. 

So I presume if YOU were the guy in the bar, you wouldn't move???

I don't believe that. 

When MacArthur saw the japs coming, he ran for it, shouting "I will return" over his shoulder. 

I'm not a fan, but at least he wasn't stupid. 

Couple thoughts - one, if you did nothing to provoke the guy in the bar, why would he be pulling a gun on you for a bar stool?  This just underscores the silliness of your analogy and how trivial its stakes are compared to the situation in Ukraine, which is more like a home invasion by destructive and homicidal marauders who want to kidnap you and own your house.  (ETA: which I see another poster also pointed out)

Two, MacArthur had someplace to run off to and try to acquire more troops, which again doesn't parallel too well the Ukrainian situation. Further, MacArthur refused to leave when ordered to, was utterly opposed to leaving his troops on Corregidor, and it took a special direct order from Pres. Roosevelt to get him to comply.  And his troops, left behind, were captured and  sent on the Bataan Death March, so MacArthur's actions, even had he done them willingly, were not exactly a brilliant falling back that saved everyone.  So your analogies are just getting worse, IMO.

[mistermack]

12 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Couple thoughts - one, if you did nothing to provoke the guy in the bar, why would he be pulling a gun on you for a bar stool?

If you have to dodge the question, it just shows that you haven't got an honest answer, that would support your rhetoric.

15 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Further, MacArthur refused to leave when ordered to, was utterly opposed to leaving his troops on Corregidor, and it took a special direct order from Pres. Roosevelt to get him to comply.

You really are a glutton for spin. That's the rubbish story given out for public consumption. It's done for your benefit, I'm amazed you just tamely swallow it. 

[TheVat]

24 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

If Zelensky had not concentrated a 120,000-strong strike force in the Donbas, this would not have happened. On February 15, Putin withdrew 10,000 soldiers from the borders of Ukraine, Zelensky did not withdraw a single one, if he had withdrawn at least 1,000 soldiers, he would have shown his desire for peace
And today Zelinsky's psychological is broken 

 

You understand the Donbas is part of Ukraine, da?  And that, given a separatist revolt there, his having troops there to restore order ON UKRAINE TERRITORY would be entirely legitimate as it would be in any sovereign nation.  If we have National Guard troops in Minnesota, that doesn't mean we're at war with Canada and they can invade us.  I can read enough Russian to see your video is titled, Putin, what do you want?  Seems like a good question!

[zapatos]

35 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

If Zelensky had not concentrated a 120,000-strong strike force in the Donbas, this would not have happened.

Please provide some support for this claim.

[Phi for All]

37 minutes ago, mistermack said:

A specific reply to a specific point might be worth my attention, but I'm afraid it's you that's doing the hand-waving. 

So that's a big NO on providing any kind of support for your reasoning? I ask because it seems important to you that I be specific, even though you hold yourself to a lower standard.

[TheVat]

1 minute ago, mistermack said:

If you have to dodge the question, it just shows that you haven't got an honest answer, that would support your rhetoric.

You really are a glutton for spin. That's the rubbish story given out for public consumption. It's done for your benefit, I'm amazed you just tamely swallow it. 

You need the rest of that first quote, which you seem to have dodged neatly by omitting it.  That part contained a more apt analogy which you don't seem to want to address.  Come now, how would you respond to a destructive home invasion and kidnapping?  @Arete, it seems, would also be interested in your addressing this.

Second part, no, my father-in-law was a WWII historian who served in the Pacific theater and had direct knowledge of what happened on Corregidor, so I fear the rubbish is all yours, tovarich.

 

[zapatos]

12 minutes ago, mistermack said:

That's the rubbish story given out for public consumption. It's done for your benefit,

Please provided some support for this assertion.

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

If Mexico was going to sign up to a military pact, with Russia and China, do you think the USA would just mind their own business and do nothing? 

Cuba has already proved that it would not. 

Another reasonable analogy?

Was Nato threatening to put Nuclear weapons in Ukraine? 

The Bay of Pigs Invasion of 1961, over 60 years ago, was nothing on the scale of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and, sanctions aside, the US has done nothing substantial since.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[mistermack]

2 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

So that's a big NO on providing any kind of support for your reasoning? I ask because it seems important to you that I be specific, even though you hold yourself to a lower standard.

If you can quote the specific point, I can answer. But you don't. 

For instance : 

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I haven't seen you once support any of these attacks on his person, and you try to argue that he's an idiot for being a leader who won't back down.

Well, he didn't back down, do you REALLY want the evidence for that? Are you really that ignorant of what's happened? I consider that an idiotic decision, that's OBVIOUSLY my own opinion, and I have elaborated why in many posts. I'm not going to endlessly debate the bleedin obvious with you. 

6 minutes ago, TheVat said:

You need the rest of that first quote, which you seem to have dodged neatly by omitting it.  That part contained a more apt analogy which you don't seem to want to address.

You dodge my question, and then insist I shouldn't dodge your dodge.  That's far too dodgy for me.

8 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The Bay of Pigs Invasion of 1961, over 60 years ago, was nothing on the scale of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and, sanctions aside, the US has done nothing substantial since.

Really? You haven't heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 ? Brink? Nuclear World War? Has that bit of history passed you by?

[TheVat]

Continuing this theater of the absurd interpretation, where a nation that had nukes gave them all up in 1994 (Budapest memorandum), allowed Russian control of the Crimean peninsula, and signed Minsk agreements 1  & 2 to allow some autonomy and self-governing in Donbas areas, and yet we are told that Ukraine and Zelenskyy should really back down more. LoL!  

Still waiting @mistermack response on what he would do in a home invasion scenario offered by two members, a more comparable situation than the ludicrous bar stool one.  Or should I assume he would grovel, lick the marauders boots, and offer up the master bedroom and his nubile daughter for the sake of safety and preserving the china cabinet?  

 

ETA -- dismissing a bad analogy isn't dodging it.  Obviously, I am not going to risk being shot for a bar stool.   Yes, clearly any sane person would give up the stool and likely call the police when at a safe remove.  Analogy remains ridiculous, and I understand you will never concede any flaw to it, so have a nice evening and stay out of bars with armed stool thugs.

Edited March 3, 2022 by TheVat
Contention bones

[J.C.MacSwell]

35 minutes ago, mistermack said:

 

Really? You haven't heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 ? Brink? Nuclear World War? Has that bit of history passed you by?

Sorry. Forgot where everyone got killed and nothing is actually happening now.

Hint: As significant as it was, ask yourself how many died? How many injured? Compare to any hour in the last few days in Ukraine. Then compare the results of negotiations.

Edited March 3, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[koti]

7 hours ago, TheVat said:

Disagree with your Biden comments, however.  He has done a good job bringing the allies together on strong sanctions.  His work isn't flashy or dramatic, but it's quite competent.  

 

Don't get me wrong, he's a blessing compared to the orange man. I'm saying that his old age showing really hard isn't working well in todays social media driven world and especially when a war needs to be adressed. I wish he stopped trying to jog into pulpits before speaches in front of the camera, accept his age and use the remaining of his energy to speak  more coherently.

[TheVat]

6 minutes ago, koti said:

Don't get me wrong, he's a blessing compared to the orange man. I'm saying that his old age showing really hard isn't working well in todays social media driven world and especially when a war needs to be adressed. I wish he stopped trying to jog into pulpits before speaches in front of the camera, accept his age and use the remaining of his energy to speak  more coherently.

Cool.  I will agree as far as Biden is not an inspiring orator.  And he stumbles verbally when he is tired, which 79 year old men can do.  I voted against Trump, and not for putting an elderly man into the world's most stressful and punishing job.  It is what it is, as we say here in these Ununited States.  Cory Booker or Amy Klobuchar wasn't an option, so I had to vote Joe.  He's holding up amazingly well.

 

[zapatos]

25 minutes ago, koti said:

I'm saying that his old age showing really hard isn't working well in todays social media driven world and especially when a war needs to be adressed.

Can you expand on that a bit? Maybe as social media is not a big part of my life I don't get the significance, but what exactly is the issue? Is it his looks? The fact he is not on Twitter? That he's not flashy enough? I'm truly curious as to how his age is a detriment due to social media.

[mistermack]

11 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Continuing this theater of the absurd interpretation, where a nation that had nukes gave them all up in 1994

You need to check your history. Ukraine had no nuclear weapons. The CIS had nuclear weapons, stationed in Ukraine. Ukraine agreed to destroy them, because keeping them was never on offer. 

 

On the subject of Ukraine in NATO, what would that give the world? Ukraine, with a running dispute with Russia, claiming Crimea, and at a shooting war with russians in places? That can only end well, can't it?

In reality, they were never going to get in. If NATO won't intervene now, how could it handle Ukraine membership with those ongoing feuds? They wouldn't dream of it. 

[zapatos]

7 minutes ago, mistermack said:

In reality, they were never going to get in.

The reality is that you are paid by Russia to provide disinformation on social media sites.