War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[geordief]

8 minutes ago, MSC said:

He was a politician. So of course he was a lying windbag. That's not news. He was still right about Hitler.

Take my head out of the tigers mouth of course. I'm certainly not going to speak to it.

All politicians are lying wind bags?

Any other sections of society  this can also be said of?

Btw I used until recently to think Churchill's "fight on the beaches..." speech was all front ...until I heard Zelensky

 

 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Why? Because the price he's paying has gone up tenfold. That's why. 

Please continue with your line of reasoning. If the price he's paying has gone up tenfold, why is he now going to fight for more? Why doesn't he cut his losses and get the hell out?

If you thought you could get me to hand over my wallet and all it would cost you is a sprained finger but you've ended up with two broken arms, are you now going to try to get my wallet AND my car? How much is THAT going to cost you? And if you couldn't even get my wallet, what makes you think you can get my wallet and my car?

You need to beef up your argument a bit to be convincing.

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

That's childish. Help yourself to a lollipop !

You can't just say you are "sure" and leave it at that. Provide some evidence or reasoning. There must be a reason why you are "sure".

[MSC]

2 hours ago, geordief said:

All politicians are lying wind bags?

Any other sections of society  this can also be said of?

Probably... to both questions.

2 hours ago, geordief said:

Btw I used until recently to think Churchill's "fight on the beaches..." speech was all front ...until I heard Zelensky

I'm unfamiliar with the phrase "all front" in this context. Could you expand on what you mean exactly?

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, geordief said:

All politicians are lying wind bags?

Any other sections of society  this can also be said of?

Btw I used until recently to think Churchill's "fight on the beaches..." speech was all front ...until I heard Zelensky

 

 

It's always the 90% of politicians that give the rest a bad name.

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, MSC said:

Probably... to both questions.

I'm unfamiliar with the phrase "all front" in this context. Could you expand on what you mean exactly?

Not keeping it real or sincere. An analogy would be those building facades you see in the old spaghetti westerns... they are all front with no depth. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

Please continue with your line of reasoning. If the price he's paying has gone up tenfold, why is he now going to fight for more? Why doesn't he cut his losses and get the hell out?

Really, I would have thought that was obvious. Getting out doesn't cut his losses. It cuts his gains. The sanctions remain, and his military costs remain. 

As it stands, he has gained his land bridge to Crimea in the south, and controls the Russian-speaking areas. When it started, I thought that he would be probably going no further than that. 

I think invasion was his less favoured outcome. He wanted his deal, he gambled, thinking that only an idiot would choose invasion, over a no-cost deal. But Zelensky refused, so having threatened invasion, he had to go ahead. That's my reading of it, but of course, you would need to be a mind reader to actually know. 

As I posted earlier, if his intention all along was to take over Ukraine, the obvious way was to take over the WESTERN border, and Isolate the country. That would have been relatively easy, the only sizeable city is Lviv. Open land is easy to take with tanks etc. but cities are much harder, if you don't want to flatten the place. 

The reason that the Ukrainians have had the success that they have had is that they can use civilians as an effective shield. Out in the country, the Russians could just blast them with heavy weapons and air power, but in cities, as in Mariupol, the bigger force is hamstrung.

Of course, Stalin would just flatten the place in a day and not give a hoot. 

7 hours ago, MSC said:

Take my head out of the tigers mouth of course. I'm certainly not going to speak to it.

😂 Your imaginary tiger is a kindly pussy cat then. 

Of course Churchill was a liar and windbag. "WE will fight on the beaches etc. " ?? HE wasn't going to be fighting anyone. And if Hitler had managed to invade, he would have surrendered immediately. Or the Nazis would just wipe out town after town, until he did. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by mistermack
western

[StringJunky]

24 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Really, I would have thought that was obvious. Getting out doesn't cut his losses. It cuts his gains. The sanctions remain, and his military costs remain. 

As it stands, he has gained his land bridge to Crimea in the south, and controls the Russian-speaking areas. When it started, I thought that he would be probably going no further than that. 

I think invasion was his less favoured outcome. He wanted his deal, he gambled, thinking that only an idiot would choose invasion, over a no-cost deal. But Zelensky refused, so having threatened invasion, he had to go ahead. That's my reading of it, but of course, you would need to be a mind reader to actually know. 

As I posted earlier, if his intention all along was to take over Ukraine, the obvious way was to take over the EASTERN border, and Isolate the country. That would have been relatively easy, the only sizeable city is Lviv. Open land is easy to take with tanks etc. but cities are much harder, if you don't want to flatten the place. 

The reason that the Ukrainians have had the success that they have had is that they can use civilians as an effective sheild. Out in the country, the Russians could just blast them with heavy weapons and air power, but in cities, as in Mariupol, the bigger force is hamstrung.

Of course, Stalin would just flatten the place in a day and not give a hoot. 

Some 'shield' the inhabitants have been. They've been quite the opposite because they wouldn't be where they are now, giving Putin spirited resistance, if the able citizens had been passive. Putin been bombing/killing them regardless. Until Putin has taken Mariupol there is no land bridge. He's after a consolation prize. You need better news sources.

If Belarussian soldiers join in, the Ukrainians have a bespoke regiment waiting  for them to join, when quite a few of them are expected to defect. It is suspected that Lukashenko knows this and wants to keep them in his oppressive bubble. It appears that much of the Belarussian people's struggle and goals are the same as the Ukrainians: democracy.

Edited April 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

You need better news sources

No, you need to be a bit more critical of spin. Mariupol doesn't block his land bridge. It's tiny, isolated and immobile. In his shoes, I would not have even bothered attacking it. 

[StringJunky]

29 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No, you need to be a bit more critical of spin. Mariupol doesn't block his land bridge. It's tiny, isolated and immobile. In his shoes, I would not have even bothered attacking it. 

I should have added "to Russian controlled areas"

Quote

If Mariupol falls, it would give Russia control of one of Ukraine's biggest ports and create a land corridor between Crimea and the Russian-backed regions of Luhansk and Donetsk.

Connecting Crimea with mainland Russia via the rebel-held areas would make it much easier for Russia to move goods and people to and from Crimea. Russia has wanted this since 2014, when the conflict in the east began.

Currently the peninsula is connected to the Russian mainland only via a single bridge, built at great expense after the Russian annexation. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60604876

Not once have I read in reputable news sources that the Ukrainians have used its citizens as a shield. WALOB. Do you seriously think 35 countries would be militarily aiding Ukrainian forces if Zelenskyy was supporting that?

Edited April 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

32 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Do you seriously think 35 countries would be militarily aiding Ukrainian forces if Zelenskyy was supporting that?

Yes. It's his only option. And your BBC map is MOD spin, and a month old. 

[MigL]

I guess Swansont was right; this is the strategy you come up with when you learn your tactics from video games.

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

As I posted earlier, if his intention all along was to take over Ukraine, the obvious way was to take over the WESTERN border, and Isolate the country.

The Russians can't even re-supply the forces they have barely inside Ukraine's eastern and southern borders, how would they re-supply their forces on the other side of the country, without having control of the areas in between ?

I don't think you need a better news source; I think you need more critical thinking.

[mistermack]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

The Russians can't even re-supply the forces they have barely inside Ukraine's eastern and southern borders, how would they re-supply their forces on the other side of the country, without having control of the areas in between ?

I don't think you need a better news source; I think you need more critical thinking.

From Belarus in the north, and Crimea in the south. Have you not heard of maps?

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, mistermack said:

From Belarus in the north, and Crimea in the south. Have you not heard of maps?

A map describes where you want to be, not what you want to do there...

[J.C.MacSwell]

39 minutes ago, mistermack said:

From Belarus in the north, and Crimea in the south. Have you not heard of maps?

How well have they managed to supply their much closer troops from those locations? 

Maybe this will help:

I realize I'm being an ass, but also consider how much easier it would be to supply the Ukrainians directly to where their war supplies are most needed from Poland if the Russians don't win control of that border (while risking Nato intervention with any "mistakes")

Edited April 3, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[MSC]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Your imaginary tiger is a kindly pussy cat then. 

Of course Churchill was a liar and windbag. "WE will fight on the beaches etc. " ?? HE wasn't going to be fighting anyone. And if Hitler had managed to invade, he would have surrendered immediately. Or the Nazis would just wipe out town after town, until he did. 

Putin is no Pussy cat and he certainly is not imaginary. I'm finding it very difficult to take you at all seriously. You don't really seem to have the slightest idea as to what you're talking about and I'm not the only one who has picked up on that. 

Thank you for sharing your opinions on this matter. They tell me everything I need to know about you. I don't think we have anything more to discuss. I don't care for your ifs and maybes in regards to Hitler and Churchill and I think your suggestion of capitulation and submission to Putin, after the deaths of innocent children at the hands of the Russian Army, hint at the complete lack of a spine and complete disrespect to victims of war crimes. 

4 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Not keeping it real or sincere. An analogy would be those building facades you see in the old spaghetti westerns... they are all front with no depth. 

Ahhh now I see. Thank you. Although the Good, The Bad and the Ugly is okay. I enjoyed it 😆 

I don't know, Churchill was sincere enough for me in wartime. Hitlers speeches were very sincere, it doesn't make them good speeches though and being sincere about wanting to exterminate jews certainly doesn't win you any awards with me... except maybe an award for being the world's biggest shit.

[MSC]

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-europe-evacuations-665fd06b92852547d7b27627b99509a6?dc_data=2260831_samsung-carnival-us&utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=taboola_news&ui=8594a598-1013-4c9c-b601-dd642e5d9b5a-tuct943396f

Quote

Oleksiy Arestovych, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, said scores of residents were found slain on the streets of Bucha and the Kyiv suburbs of Irpin and Hostomel in what looked like a “scene from a horror movie.”

 

Some people were shot in the head and had their hands bound, and some bodies showed signs of torture, Arestovych said. There also were reports of rapes, he said.

If this turns out to be true, then Russia has a lot to answer for. This is just cruel and barbaric at this point. How exactly is this justified? Ukraine won't remain neutral so you kill, torture and rape them in their home? 

If anybody says something along the lines of "Oh well they should have surrendered early then this would not have happened." I sincerely hope you get banned. I've no patience for victim blaming bs. 

It almost feels as if Putin is actively trying to provoke NATO into action so he can turn it around and claim he's actually being victimized by the west. 

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, MSC said:

If this turns out to be true

It is 

[zapatos]

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

Really, I would have thought that was obvious.

Lots of things are obvious. Like the sun going around the earth, that the cause of disease is "bad vapors", and that the universe is static.

We can do better than that. This is a science site. Evidence and reason are to be embraced, not ignored for the expediency of a shortcut named "obvious".

[MSC]

12 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Lots of things are obvious. Like the sun going around the earth, that the cause of disease is "bad vapors", and that the universe is static.

We can do better than that. This is a science site. Evidence and reason are to be embraced, not ignored for the expediency of a shortcut named "obvious".

Ahhh yes, the whole "it's obvious" spiel. Usually a lame attempt to try to make someone feel stupid for daring to disagree with or challenge someone's claims.

[StringJunky]

11 minutes ago, MSC said:

Ahhh yes, the whole "it's obvious" spiel. Usually a lame attempt to try to make someone feel stupid for daring to disagree with or challenge someone's claims.

I sense he's already made his mind up, when the situation is still completely fluid. I've seen a similar attitude on another less disciplined forum. If they don't like someone, everything they do or say is wrong.

Edited April 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

 

If this turns out to be true, then Russia has a lot to answer for. This is just cruel and barbaric at this point. How exactly is this justified? Ukraine won't remain neutral so you kill, torture and rape them in their home? 

If anybody says something along the lines of "Oh well they should have surrendered early then this would not have happened." I sincerely hope you get banned. I've no patience for victim blaming bs. 

It almost feels as if Putin is actively trying to provoke NATO into action so he can turn it around and claim he's actually being victimized by the west. 

Yes, plus one.  I have said elsewhere that Russia is a nation of chess players, and I think that's never more apparent than when their armed forces are afflicted with internal problems, desertions, demoralization, and flawed chains of command.  When your army sucks, go for psychological manipulation and terror.   So when your Kyiv forces have to withdraw north to regroup, resupply, and get their shit together, leave corpses in your wake, both to provoke allies and to sow terror in the populace for when you come back.  

Russia isn't committing war crimes, more like they are committed to war crimes as their MO.  It all is, as many here have noted, so breathtakingly counterproductive -- how can they now not expect any nation nearby not to pound on NATO's door?   Do they really think they can sell the whole "fake news" nonsense?

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, TheVat said:

 Do they really think they can sell the whole "fake news" nonsense?

Yes.

Quote

In Russia's first public comment on the allegations, the defence ministry in Moscow described photos and videos from Bucha as "another staged performance by the Kyiv regime for the Western media".

 https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-claims-control-over-kyiv-region-russia-looks-east-2022-04-03/

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[TheVat]

28 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Lots of things are obvious. Like the sun going around the earth, that the cause of disease is "bad vapors", and that the universe is static....

Vicks Vapo-Rub is good vapors.  So why, if that's the case, wouldn't they be fighting bad vapors?  You and your Germ Theory ilk are all sadly blinkered by a stifling orthodoxy.  

(My autocorrect tried to make that last word orthodontist -- maybe I should have left it that way) 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Vicks Vapo-Rub is good vapors.  So why, if that's the case, wouldn't they be fighting bad vapors?  You and your Germ Theory ilk are all sadly blinkered by a stifling orthodoxy.  

(My autocorrect tried to make that last word orthodontist -- maybe I should have left it that way) 

Let's not be anti-dentites!

[StringJunky]

Situation as released today by UK MOD. Click image to enlarge:

 

Quote

EU must discuss import ban on Russian gas, German defence minister says

BERLIN, April 3 (Reuters) - Germany's defence minister said on Sunday that the European Union must discuss banning the import of Russian gas after Ukrainian and European officials accused Russian forces of committing atrocities near Kyiv.

"There has to be a response. Such crimes must not remain unanswered," the defence ministry quoted Christine Lambrecht as saying in an interview with the public broadcaster ARD.

Berlin has so far resisted growing calls to impose an embargo on energy imports from Russia, saying its economy and that of other European countries are too dependent on them. Russia supplies 40% of Europe's gas needs.

But Lambrecht said EU ministers would now have to discuss a ban, according to a tweet from her ministry.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-must-pay-war-crimes-bucha-germany-says-2022-04-03/

Lithuania started that ball rolling on Saturday by stopping Russian gas imports. If we do, we are going to feel the impact even more at home. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by StringJunky