War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[mistermack]

31 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

The USSR collapses, you expect its ex-satellite countries not to exercise autonomy who they collaborate with, regardless of whatever the US told Gorbachev? 

That's the stock argument, but it doesn't work both ways does it? When Cuba exercised it's autonomy, the USA threatened a nuclear world war three, and forced most of the world to impose sanctions on them for fifty years.

I asked some time ago, what do you think the USA would do, if Mexico was arranging to join in a mutual anti-USA military pact with China and Russia, and nobody had an anwer. Because everybody knows that the USA military would be down Mexico way like a shot, and all autonomy would be forgotten in an instant. 

[iNow]

11 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I asked some time ago, what do you think the USA would do, if Mexico was arranging to join in a mutual anti-USA military pact with China and Russia

We wouldn't be lobbing missiles at Mexican hospitals, rolling tanks against Mexican villages and destroying the residential buildings of non-combatants while people were still inside, having our soldiers rape Mexican women with hands bound in zip ties, nor would we be murdering them and leaving their bodies and the bodies of their children to rot in the streets.

Edited April 5, 2022 by iNow

[mistermack]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

We wouldn't be etc etc

No? It was good enough for Iraq. Horrendous stuff done by the US.

I'm sure Mexico would "have" weapons of mass destruction. They would construct their excuses. 

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No?

Correct

[StringJunky]

24 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No? It was good enough for Iraq. Horrendous stuff done by the US.

I'm sure Mexico would "have" weapons of mass destruction. They would construct their excuses. 

Why don't you fuck off to Russia and enjoy the delights of their state media. Stop dragging this topic into irrelevance. If you've got an axe to grind, make your own thread. We don't need your bile making a difficult subject more difficult to navigate. You are making this thread stink of red herrings.

Edited April 5, 2022 by StringJunky

[LaurieAG]

It looks like Russia is using the US playbook on protecting its borders and China may do the same.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/01/the-real-cuban-missile-crisis/309190/

Quote

Reached through sober analysis, Stern’s conclusion that “John F. Kennedy and his administration, without question, bore a substantial share of the responsibility for the onset of the Cuban missile crisis” would have shocked the American people in 1962, for the simple reason that Kennedy’s administration had misled them about the military imbalance between the superpowers and had concealed its campaign of threats, assassination plots, and sabotage designed to overthrow the government in Cuba—an effort well known to Soviet and Cuban officials.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-war-us-talks-unsuccessful-military-infrastructure-cuba-venezuela/

Quote

Russia "won't exclude" putting military hardware in Cuba or Venezuela amid "unsuccessful" talks with U.S. over Ukraine

 

[SergUpstart]

2 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

Russia "won't exclude" putting military hardware in Cuba or Venezuela amid "unsuccessful" talks with U.S. over Ukraine

Now Russia needs military equipment in the Donbas, not in Venezuela or Cuba

Psaki stated the desire of the United States to put Russia before a choice between default and exhaustion

The default is unequivocal

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, SergUpstart said:

Now Russia needs military equipment in the Donbas, not in Venezuela or Cuba

Apparently, weapons are in such short supply in Chechnya they have been handing out 1930's Mosin-Nagant rifles, used in WW2, to its conscripts. This seems to indicate that its ally has a dire shortage of available modern arms, as I'm sure they would supply the Chechens if they were available. I think it's possible Russia may grind to a halt purely through lack of adequate logistical pre-planning, supplies and poor morale amongst its ranks.

Edited April 6, 2022 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Apparently, . . . . This seems to indicate that . . . . I'm sure they would . . . .I think it's possible . . . 

No spin here then. 

So long as YOU think it's possible, that's good enough for me !   

[MSC]

20 hours ago, mistermack said:

asked some time ago, what do you think the USA would do, if Mexico was arranging to join in a mutual anti-USA military pact with China and Russia, and nobody had an anwer. Because everybody knows that the USA military would be down Mexico way like a shot, and all autonomy would be forgotten in an instant. 

Except that isn't what is happening, therefore the wild speculation is irrelevant.

51 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No spin here then. 

So long as YOU think it's possible, that's good enough for me !   

You literally just copied a few of the words used... do you actually believe this makes you sound intelligent? 

19 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Why don't you fuck off to Russia and enjoy the delights of their state media. Stop dragging this topic into irrelevance. If you've got an axe to grind, make your own thread. We don't need your bile making a difficult subject more difficult to navigate. You are making this thread stink of red herrings.

Agreed. +1 at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they work for Russian state media. Russia commits war crimes, then all of a sudden some random apologist appears in places where people are having informed discussions about it. State sponsored trolling doesn't seem too far-fetched to be a really possibility here imo. 

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

No spin here then. 

So long as YOU think it's possible, that's good enough for me !   

If it's spin, it's my spin. The ensuing military catastrophe that is the Russian Plan appears to bear me out.

The last 4 days of troop movements:

Edited April 6, 2022 by StringJunky
Added maps

[MSC]

22 hours ago, mistermack said:

No? It was good enough for Iraq. Horrendous stuff done by the US.

Nobody here has stated that they supported the war in Iraq. Nobody here has stated they support the idea of war crimes when committed by the USA. Somebody else's potential war crimes, do NOT justify Russias current war crimes. The ACTUAL topic of discussion. You are tilting at windmills. It's just getting incredibly boring at this point. You've added little of value to this discussion and are just accusing us of believing or saying things that nobody has said. 

Did your mother never tell you that two wrongs do not make a right? Ukraine wasn't the one at war with Iraq. Ukrainian civilians certainly were never at war with Iraq. How is Iraq, the Cuban missile crisis or an imaginary war with Mexico in any way shape or form, relevant or related to this discussion? 

[MSC]

In an effort to try and move this discussion on, I want to pose a question.

Should NATO make use of its military resources to co-ordinate the accelerated building of a renewable energy infrastructure in NATO members territories, in order to effectively and completely end any leveraging power Russian Oil has in Europe?

[TheVat]

Yes.

😀

[iNow]

2 hours ago, MSC said:

In an effort to try and move this discussion on, I want to pose a question.

Should NATO make use of its military resources to co-ordinate the accelerated building of a renewable energy infrastructure in NATO members territories, in order to effectively and completely end any leveraging power Russian Oil has in Europe?

Sure, but long term projects don’t solve immediate term urgencies 

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 4/3/2022 at 8:01 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

Looks like the Viktator has won yet again, thanks at least in part to the degree he has control of the media.

I wonder if he'd won if the essence of his victory speech was forefront on his campaign trail? (maybe it was, I don't really know, but this seems more like leaning toward Putin than Europe...the very thing claimed by his opponents)

“We have such a victory it can be seen from the moon, but it’s sure that it can be seen from Brussels,” Orban said in his speech on Sunday night, making light of his government’s long-running tensions with EU leaders.

“We will remember this victory until the end of our lives because we had to fight against a huge amount of opponents,” Orban said, citing a number of his political enemies including the Hungarian left, “bureaucrats” in Brussels, the international media, “and the Ukrainian president too – we never had so many opponents at the same time.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarians-vote-orbans-12-year-rule-tight-ballot-overshadowed-by-ukraine-war-2022-04-03/

I guess he wants Russian gas.

...and now, just 3 days after the election, and after clear evidence of the atrocities in Bucha, agreeing to prop up the ruble.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungary-working-solution-pay-russian-gas-may-foreign-minister-2022-04-06/

Kind of begs the question...if they are demonstrably supporting Putin's aggression "Why are they in NATO?"

[iNow]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Kind of begs the question...if they are demonstrably supporting Putin's aggression "Why are they in NATO?"

Maybe a better question is for how much longer before they’re expelled

[J.C.MacSwell]

I guess the 1956 Hungarian Revolution means little to them now.

[SergUpstart]

The PRC and the Solomon Islands have signed a military cooperation agreement, which will now allow the Chinese Navy to enter the ports of the islands for long-term parking and maintenance of ships, as well as "if necessary" to introduce a contingent of the PLA to the islands to protect the sovereignty of the island state and the numerous Chinese island community.

[StringJunky]

8 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

...and now, just 3 days after the election, and after clear evidence of the atrocities in Bucha, agreeing to prop up the ruble.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungary-working-solution-pay-russian-gas-may-foreign-minister-2022-04-06/

Kind of begs the question...if they are demonstrably supporting Putin's aggression "Why are they in NATO?"

I looked to see if NATO membership predated Orban, but he was PM then. Je ne sais pas. 

[MSC]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

Sure, but long term projects don’t solve immediate term urgencies 

True, but this situation has been years in the making, and could last for longer. Current expectations from military strategists are claiming they see this war lasting years. 

The task isn't as large as you would think either. Europe already produces 25% of its energy use per year from renewable. 40% of its energy requirements were met by Russian fossil fuels. 

If I were to use the energy figures from last year as an example, had this plan been initiated when Crimea was annexed, it is entirely possible that by last year, the 1000+Tw of Europe's energy requirements met by Russia, could have already been exceeded by renewables without military logistical expertise and manpower contributing toward an expedited installation. 

Now, don't be too critical of this idea. Pitching a military energy solution to the Russian problem is killing two birds with one stone. 😆 

Would be typical of humans to do wouldn't it? Create renewable energy infrastructure to save us from climate change? Nope. Create renewable energy infrastructure to mess with the Russians as part of a war effort? Where do I sign up? Says every true American patriot 😆 

I think it's kind of a near perfect idea. The kind I don't have very often. It's one of those things you can do as a military option that cannot be used as any kind of pretext for direct military retaliation. There is nothing in the NATO-Russia treaties which forbids either from making upgrades to their own infrastructure as a military move.

10 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I guess the 1956 Hungarian Revolution means little to them now.

I wouldn't be too hard on the Hungarian people. With state controlled media, corrupt policing and social media manipulation, it was a losing battle. My best friends wife is Hungarian, but she has left the country now. 

[Sensei]

 ...where were you when US presidents ordered the torture of people at Guantanamo and similar facilities around the world? (I know, just look through the old threads).

 ...now you're complaining while the Russians are doing exactly what the US military did to innocent people....

 

...V.P. said that they are doing just the same what you did..

..but you don't even understood his words...

 

There are war criminals from western countries....

(did you watch the movies about the US conquering the West? Indians? right?)

...and now there are war criminals from Eastern European countries...

 

 

Centuries go by... same shit...

 

...but now broadcasted by Internet and satellites... immediately...

 

..and everything recorded by the Creator of The Universe... a backup version... Just in case someone lied to me in front of me...

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Sensei

[iNow]

37 minutes ago, MSC said:

True, but this situation has been years in the making, and could last for longer. Current expectations from military strategists are claiming they see this war lasting years. 

Of course, but irrelevant.

It's as if my town is currently flooding during a massive hurricane, we're trying to evacuate my family and prevent my children from drowning, but instead of talking about sending boats and helicopters and life vests, you're choosing to discuss the implementation of new nuclear power plants 15 years down the line to mitigate climate change.

Related, but quite obviously separate. 

5 minutes ago, Sensei said:

you're complaining while the Russians are doing exactly what the US military did to innocent people

The US punished the people responsible and removed them QUICKLY from the ranks. This is a false equivalence on nearly all fronts. 

[Sensei]

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

The US punished the people responsible and removed them QUICKLY from the ranks. This is a false equivalence on nearly all fronts. 

 ...Only those who were so stupid as to make videos (and share them around the world) of them torturing and raping people...

...there were no other options...

 

The "army" withdrawn from Kiev will go to the Donbass area, and the soldiers will be on the front line to die first, to remove the war criminals who committed the aforementioned crimes..

Edited April 7, 2022 by Sensei

[MSC]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

...where have you been when US presidents ordered tortures of people in Guantanamo and similar facilities around the world? (I know, just watch the old threads).

...now you complain when Russians do exactly the same what US army did with innocent people..

 

...V.P. said that they are doing just the same what you did..

..but you don't even understood his words...

 

There are war criminals from western countries....

(did you watch the movies about the US conquering the West? Indians? right?)

...and now there are war criminals from Eastern European countries...

 

 

Centuries go by... same shit...

 

...but now broadcasted by Internet and satellites... immediately...

 

..and everything recorded by the Creator of The Universe... a backup version... Just in case someone lied to me in front of me...

 

How do you know if I've never complained about other war crimes and unjustified wars or guantanamo bay? That stuff all happened before I was ever on this forum too. That's why I've never mentioned them here. 

Maybe someone should just start a war crime specific thread. That way people will stop trying to scold others for things they haven't said...

I want it stated explicitly, that I want all perpetrators of past, present and future war crimes, from attacking civilians, torturing POWs, genocide, wmds/bio/chemical warfare to face consequences for their actions. I am NOT in a position to make any group or individual face those consequences. 

I choose to try and live in the present. Russian War crimes are now in the present. Somebody else's past war crimes do not justify or excuse more. They may make them a tad more understandable, but not excusable.

As a parent, I just don't buy the whole "Oh but I hit Jeremy because like a bazillion days ago he hit Rebecca and Rebecca cried and he didn't say sorry but today he called me poopy and I remembered about Rebecca so I hit him 5 times in the face... also I like turtles." Bullshit. Seriously, watching geopolitics and diplomacy play out is like being a fly on a wall of a preschool. It should also be said, it is a very very dangerous position for the fly to be in.