War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[Genady]

13 minutes ago, TheVat said:

BTW, a question: are Ukrainian and Russian best described as dialects or as two distinct languages?  I know a tiny bit of Russian and will hear a Ukrainian say something that I recognize and which sounds pretty much like Russian.  Ne znayu...

Here is an "official" answer:

"Many lay people in Russia think of Ukrainian as a mere dialect of Russian, and a substandard one at that. Linguists, on the other hand, treat Ukrainian as a separate language."

Pereltsvaig, Asya. Languages of the World (p. 37)

Also,

"most speakers of Ukrainian have no problem understanding Russian, but the average Russian – who has not been exposed to much Ukrainian – might understand only bits and pieces of their interlocutor’s Ukrainian speech."

Pereltsvaig, Asya. Languages of the World (p. 7)

Being fluent in Russian, I cannot understand Ukrainian except for the "bits and pieces."

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, Genady said:

Here is an "official" answer:

"Many lay people in Russia think of Ukrainian as a mere dialect of Russian, and a substandard one at that. Linguists, on the other hand, treat Ukrainian as a separate language."

Pereltsvaig, Asya. Languages of the World (p. 37)

Also,

"most speakers of Ukrainian have no problem understanding Russian, but the average Russian – who has not been exposed to much Ukrainian – might understand only bits and pieces of their interlocutor’s Ukrainian speech."

Pereltsvaig, Asya. Languages of the World (p. 7)

Being fluent in Russian, I cannot understand Ukrainian except for the "bits and pieces."

That one-way natural understanding is probably useful for the Ukrainians. Hopefully, it gives them an edge in spontaneous intelligence gathering that doesn't require interpreters.

Edited April 12, 2022 by StringJunky

[beecee]

6 hours ago, MSC said:

I think to be a realist, we have to accept that the uncertainty after Putin is gone, is a dangerous situation unto itself and more unpredictable than Putin. Still worth the risk imo but making Putin disappear is just 1 step in a new Russian Revolution. Undoing the beliefs from Russian propaganda upon the majority of Russian citizens is also a very difficult task. As it stands, if Putin were to disappear today, whomever steps in may not wish to cease hostilities in the Ukraine. 

While I agree that we cannot be sure of what will happen if Putin was taken out, we also can never be sure what Putin would do when backed into a corner...so far the atrocities, the use of outlawed weapons, chemical being the latest rumoured to have been used. He could still, (if things don't go his way) decide to use tactical nuclear weapons.

Perhaps NATO and the west may need to forget about the atrocities and war crimes, and offer this to Putin as an exchange to cease his maniacal war. I wouldn't like it, but perhaps if he is backed into a corner, he, (Putin) may see it as a way out. For NATO and the west, it would be the lesser of two evils, although morally acceptable in stopping this war.

Just a thought.

Edited April 12, 2022 by beecee

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Perhaps NATO and the west may need to forget about the atrocities and war crimes, and offer this to Putin as an exchange to cease his maniacal war.

Offer what to Putin?

[beecee]

7 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Offer what to Putin?

Any and all challenges of atrocities, war crimes, as a sweetener if you will, to withdraw, that "may  be" effective if he is backed into a corner, and may go to placate the average Russian Joe Blow, ( or keep them in the dark) when this debacle is finished. I thought that was pretty clear. Just a thought though.

Edited April 12, 2022 by beecee

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, beecee said:

Any and all challenges of atrocities, war crimes, as a sweetener if you will, to withdraw

I suspect he does not care. It's not like the International Criminal Court is going to dispatch their International Police Force to go pick him up for incarceration.

4 minutes ago, beecee said:

I thought that was pretty clear.

Should I apologize for not immediately understanding?

[beecee]

Just now, zapatos said:

I suspect he does not care. It's not like the International Criminal Court is going to dispatch their International Police Force to go pick him up for incarceration.

Perhaps. But he doesn't seem to care either way, and/or about any consequences. 

And while no international police force is likely to arrest him, it may have some affect on the average Russian citizen, knowing that their leader was not a criminal.

[zapatos]

33 minutes ago, beecee said:

Perhaps. But he doesn't seem to care either way, and/or about any consequences. 

 

Exactly. So it seems unlikely offering to ignore atrocities is a carrot for him.

35 minutes ago, beecee said:

it may have some affect on the average Russian citizen, knowing that their leader was not a criminal.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about their peace of mind either.

[beecee]

25 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Exactly. So it seems unlikely offering to ignore atrocities is a carrot for him.

Like I said, perhaps. 

27 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about their peace of mind either.

Perhaps. That's the situation at this time, we can't be sure of anything, other then so far despite the horrendous losses, and the continuing support of Ukraine by NATO and other nations, it is having no effect in stopping the carnage.

[zapatos]

23 minutes ago, beecee said:

Like I said, perhaps. 

In what way do you think he perhaps does care and would take the carrot?

24 minutes ago, beecee said:

Perhaps

In what way do you think he perhaps does care about their peace of mind?

 

[beecee]

13 minutes ago, zapatos said:

In what way do you think he perhaps does care and would take the carrot?

Perhaps he would still like his people to think good of him? Like other dictators of the past.

13 minutes ago, zapatos said:

In what way do you think he perhaps does care about their peace of mind?

Perhaps for the same selfish reasons as above. And his general unpredictability.

In turn why do you believe you know he wouldn't secumb to the reasons I have given? Like I said, perhaps...😉 

 

 That's the situation at this time, we can't be sure of anything, other then so far despite the horrendous losses, and the continuing support of Ukraine by NATO and other nations, it is having no effect in stopping the carnage.

Are you interested in stopping the carnage? and trying all methods possible, short of a third world war and nuclear reprisals?

Edited April 12, 2022 by beecee

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

In turn why do you believe you know he wouldn't secumb to the reasons I have given?

Where did I say I "know"?

[beecee]

Just now, zapatos said:

Where did I say I "know"?

Where did I say I know? I said perhaps. 

ps: I have edited the previous post if you would like to reply.

[zapatos]

11 minutes ago, beecee said:

Where did I say I know? I said perhaps. 

 

Are you not going to answer my question?

11 minutes ago, beecee said:

Where did I say I know?

Where did I say that YOU know?

 

[beecee]

24 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Are you not going to answer my question?

Already answered......

42 minutes ago, beecee said:

Perhaps he would still like his people to think good of him? Like other dictators of the past.

Perhaps for the same selfish reasons as above. And his general unpredictability.

 

 That's the situation at this time, we can't be sure of anything, other then so far despite the horrendous losses, and the continuing support of Ukraine by NATO and other nations, it is having no effect in stopping the carnage.

Are you interested in stopping the carnage? and trying all methods possible, short of a third world war and nuclear reprisals?

Now I must ask, are you seriously asking meaningful genuine questions? or have you still got a bee in your bonnet? 

Let's rehash this obvious bee which I originally ignored to placate you......

you asked......

3 hours ago, zapatos said:

Offer what to Putin?

I gave that answer again with the following highlight which you seemed to have taken exception to....

2 hours ago, beecee said:

 Any and all challenges of atrocities, war crimes, as a sweetener if you will, to withdraw, that "may  be" effective if he is backed into a corner, and may go to placate the average Russian Joe Blow, ( or keep them in the dark) when this debacle is finished. I thought that was pretty clear. Just a thought though.

you replied.....

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

Should I apologize for not immediately understanding?

This is what you claim you didn't understand......

4 hours ago, beecee said:

Perhaps NATO and the west may need to forget about the atrocities and war crimes, and offer this to Putin as an exchange to cease his maniacal war.

Please, can we end play time?  Please?

What we can be sure of, is that we cannot be sure of anything at this stage, other then the continuing horrendous losses on both sides, and the continuing support of Ukraine and its people by NATO and other nations.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by beecee

[zapatos]

17 minutes ago, beecee said:

Already answered......

No, you didn't. My question was, "Where did I say I KNOW?"" You responded with a question of your own.

19 minutes ago, beecee said:

This is what you claim you didn't understand......

Correct. I'm well aware of what I asked for clarification on. Why are you bringing this up?

I still have two questions outstanding that you haven't answered:

1 hour ago, beecee said:

In turn why do you believe you know he wouldn't secumb to the reasons I have given?

Where did I say I "know"? I don't remember saying that.

57 minutes ago, beecee said:

Where did I say I know? I said perhaps.

Where did I say that YOU "know"? I don't remember saying that.

If you don't intend to answer the questions just say so instead of dancing around.

[beecee]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

If you don't intend to answer the questions just say so instead of dancing around.

I don't intend playing your games. 

[MonDie]

3 hours ago, beecee said:

Any and all challenges of atrocities, war crimes, as a sweetener if you will, to withdraw, that "may  be" effective if he is backed into a corner, and may go to placate the average Russian Joe Blow, ( or keep them in the dark) when this debacle is finished. I thought that was pretty clear. Just a thought though.

Admittedly, this is more mathematical and logical but not very scientific.  Anywho.  If the concession was on the table already, Putin would know the probability or the threshold is possible enough that the concession was on the table already, it hypothetical can go on the table, and it might be placed on the table again.  Even if military withdrawal is inevitable, Putin may hold out for the concession anyway, knowing what he knows.  IMO this is the problem of post hoc negotiating: shifting goal posts, and setting bad precedents.

Fortunately, most people, who do not have inflated egos or a self-absorbed desire to over-extend their control, can be reasoned with about certain ground-rules and their benefits to community and the shamefulness of violating them.  Unfortunately, they can still have massive blind spots.

[zapatos]

5 minutes ago, beecee said:

I don't intend playing your games. 

You do this all the time. You are asked a simple question and refuse you answer.

You said I claimed to "know" something and when I asked you to show me the quote, you started your dance. Would have been much simpler if you had just said "Well, it seems you didn't actually claim to KNOW that." Is it that hard to admit a mistake on your part?

[beecee]

22 minutes ago, MonDie said:

Admittedly, this is more mathematical and logical but not very scientific.  Anywho.  If the concession was on the table already, Putin would know the probability or the threshold is possible enough that the concession was on the table already, it hypothetical can go on the table, and it might be placed on the table again.  Even if military withdrawal is inevitable, Putin may hold out for the concession anyway, knowing what he knows.  IMO this is the problem of post hoc negotiating: shifting goal posts, and setting bad precedents.

Fortunately, most people, who do not have inflated egos or a self-absorbed desire to over-extend their control, can be reasoned with about certain ground-rules and their benefits to community and the shamefulness of violating them.  Unfortunately, they can still have massive blind spots.

Can't argue with any of that reasonable reply. Thanks. Again, essentially nothing so far has worked, and that was the reason for my "perhaps" suggestion, after all else is tried and failed.

20 minutes ago, zapatos said:

You do this all the time. You are asked a simple question and refuse you answer.

You said I claimed to "know" something and when I asked you to show me the quote, you started your dance. Would have been much simpler if you had just said "Well, it seems you didn't actually claim to KNOW that." Is it that hard to admit a mistake on your part?

I'll answer your less then genuine (imo) question....No you did not say definitively that you know, but you most certainly did suggest and infer other possibilities, just as I have never set any of my suggestions or  replies in concrete, but all encouched with perhaps, and the reasons. 

That's the situation at this time, we can't be sure of anything, other then so far despite the horrendous losses, and the continuing support of Ukraine by NATO and other nations, it is having no effect in stopping the carnage.

Are you interested in stopping the carnage? and trying all methods possible, short of a third world war and nuclear reprisals?

Edited April 13, 2022 by beecee

[LaurieAG]

4 hours ago, beecee said:

What we can be sure of, is that we cannot be sure of anything at this stage, other then the continuing horrendous losses on both sides, and the continuing support of Ukraine and its people by NATO and other nations.

Make up your mind.

[beecee]

4 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

Make up your mind.

About what?

What I said previously before your interuption......

8 hours ago, beecee said:

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am absolutely flabbergasted how some can twist facts to suit any particular sickening agenda they wish! 1+ To repeat myself again, the best that can happen is that some Russian citizen take this war criminal out, (Putin)  by whatever means at their disposal. 1-

8 hours ago, beecee said:

Why would you object to taking out a maniac, that may have/could have potentially started a nuclear war? The only other alternative is for him to do the right thing as Hitler finally did.

I stand by both statements.

I asked you a question previously, thus, Why would you object to taking out a maniac, that may have/could have potentially started a nuclear war? The only other alternative is for him to do the right thing as Hitler finally did.

Let me ask it again. Why would you object for someone taking out Putin? Perhaps WW2 may have ended earlier if the attempts on Hitlers life were successful. 

 

[beecee]

And in the meantime, despite all the sanctions so far, the war continues. Thanks largely to the resolve of the Ukrainians as reported and evidenced, and their unexpected successes, despite also huge losses and deaths.. 

In the meantime, the Russian public is also sufferring while at the same time having their media and news outlets controlled, meaning effectively thay are being lied to. And many have been arrested for daring to protest Russia's war mongering.

And the war goes on...

Better we try other means like ceasing the peacemeal sanctions and letting them have all that we have in the way of sanctions and limitations...Like throwing them off the security council for starters...that and building an Iron curtain around Russia. Sure, some NATO countries and others may feel the after effects, but again, the war goes on. Will the wholesale implementation of all possible sanctions work? We cannot really say, but we also know that the present system is not working.

The other is as mentioned, the hope that a Russian military or nonmilitary person may take Putin out, permanently. The downside of course being someone possibly worse may take the reigns, with even itchier trigger fingers for nuclear missile launching. 

The third suggestion is probably the most distasteful, in telling Putin that NATO and the west will withdraw all suggestions and accusations of genocide. (In reality of course he needs to face justice, and if found guilty, sentenced and hung!) Dictators, while obviously starving their general population/public of news, also prefer to be admired/looked up to and revered. Putin I don't think would be any exception, if he could avoid having the public and the military know the truth. There is already reportedly some desertions, and unofficial/unordered retreats from some Russian infantry and armoured divisions, so some restlessness and doubt about the legitimacy of this war is already considered. Will it work? Again, like the other two, we cannot really say with certainty. The only certain factor of course, is the war goes on, bombing of innocents continues and Ukrainians are dying. 

 

[SergUpstart]

Le Pen said that if she wins the election, France will withdraw from NATO

[MigL]

This is a thread where we are discussing an on-going war that has killed thousands and displaced millions from their homes.
Yet some of us think it wise to devote a whole page to discussion about who knows what, or who didn't answer a question, in an attempt to one-up each other in a discussion forum.

Petty squabbles should not be this important ( even to you guys involved ), stay focused on the big picture ( Ukrainian- Russian squabble ).
 

1 minute ago, SergUpstart said:

Le Pen said that if she wins the election, France will withdraw from NATO

Again ?
Maybe LaurieAG will say "Make up your mind, France"