War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[geordief]

Just now, MigL said:

Where did you get the idea that democracy, once established, required no further upkeep, or defense ? 🙂

Nowhere ,but it is on the back foot and under attack.

 

First priority is to keep the democratic gains it has acquired over the years.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, geordief said:

First priority is to keep the democratic gains it has acquired over the years.

That's what makes a pseudo-democracy, a true democracy resets every year...

[SergUpstart]

39 minutes ago, MigL said:

China is the biggest 'producer' in the world.
North America and Europe ( all democracies ) are the biggest 'consumers' in the world.

This means that the trade balance of the "democracies" with China is in short supply. What is it covered with? The fact that China and the producing countries increased reserves in dollars and euros. But this cannot go on forever, especially considering that the US national debt is already 30 trillion. So the world is on the verge of a big shoo-in.

[MigL]

7 minutes ago, geordief said:

Nowhere ,but it is on the back foot and under attack.

It's always 'under attack'.
By its very definition, it is 'the will of the people'.
And a lot of those people are going to have differing, and possibly self-serving, 'wills'.

4 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

This means that the trade balance of the "democracies" with China is in short supply. What is it covered with?

China has its own problems.
It has lifted 800 million people out of extreme poverty ( $1.90 per day ) in the last 40 years, by providing manufacturing jobs for them.
If western democracies fail because of trade balances, who are these people going to be manufacturing stuff for ?
And once their standard of living goes up, their manufacturing will relocate to cheaper parts of the world, and it may be economical to manufacture in North America again.
That is how a global economy works.

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 8/1/2022 at 7:11 AM, SergUpstart said:

Will Pelosi visit Taiwan and what could it lead to?? If he does not visit, it will be regarded as a victory for China.

I guess she decided to go. In the grand scheme of international politics, her arrival seems fairly innocuous to me...of course, I might feel differently if I was a dictator of a totalitarian regime.

[TheVat]

This whole will she won't she story has been a snoozefest.

Serg's difficulty with identifying Pelosi's gender was amusing, though.

[J.C.MacSwell]

16 minutes ago, TheVat said:

This whole will she won't she story has been a snoozefest.

Serg's difficulty with identifying Pelosi's gender was amusing, though.

How would you like it if your neighbour was living peacefully in a property across the street that you had coveted for 70 years, and just as you were threatening to attack them for the hundredth time, Pelosi showed up on their doorstep for a nice pleasant visit?

[SergUpstart]

If Xi leaves this matter like this, it will be his major image defeat.

The American old lady was not afraid of Chinese military power

ю

[Greg A.]

On 12/5/2021 at 4:40 PM, iNow said:

Intelligence suggests Russia is planning to invade Ukraine in January apparently with the intent to take it over. Likewise, China has been stepping up plans to seize Taiwan. Have been talking about it for years, but seem to sense more opportunity in todays global political climate.

Should US respond if/when either of those two things happen? If so, how and for how long? Does your answer change if both events happen at the same time?

Game it out…

What else could Putin have done to stop the Left's (Nato's) encroachment on Russia's borders? And Taiwan is Chinese territory occupied by politicized Chinese citizens. China should have every right to take it back. What the hell is so sacred about Democracy (democratic elections) that gives us the right to impose our rules on other nations. The natural order is dictatorship after all. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Greg A.

[iNow]

53 minutes ago, Greg A. said:

What else could Putin have done to stop the Left's (Nato's) encroachment on Russia's borders?

Maybe support democracy and stop murdering his opponents and countrymen?

54 minutes ago, Greg A. said:

What the hell is so sacred about Democracy (democratic elections) that gives us the right to impose our rules on other nations

Thanks for the offer, but I’m not at all interested in chasing such obvious red herrings and strawmen.

[Sensei]

47 minutes ago, Greg A. said:

And Taiwan is Chinese territory occupied by politicized Chinese citizens. China should have every right to take it back. What the hell is so sacred about Democracy (democratic elections) that gives us the right to impose our rules on other nations. The natural order is dictatorship after all. 

I suggest learning more about the history..

 

"The official name of the country (Taiwan) in English is the "Republic of China" (ROC); it has also been known under various names throughout its existence. Shortly after the ROC's establishment in 1912, while it was still located on the Chinese mainland,"

"During the 1950s and 1960s, after the ROC government had withdrawn to Taiwan upon losing the Chinese Civil War, it was commonly referred to as "Nationalist China" (or "Free China") to differentiate it from "Communist China" (or "Red China")."

"The Republic of China, which had overthrown the Qing in 1911, took control of Taiwan on behalf of the Allies of World War II following the surrender of Japan in 1945. The resumption of the Chinese Civil War resulted in the ROC's loss of mainland China to forces of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and consequent retreat to Taiwan in 1949. Its effective jurisdiction has since been limited to Taiwan and smaller islands. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

 

"The Communists gained control of mainland China and established the People's Republic of China (PRC) in 1949, forcing the leadership of the Republic of China to retreat to the island of Taiwan.^[9] Starting in the 1950s, a lasting political and military standoff between the two sides of the Taiwan Strait has ensued, with the ROC in Taiwan and the PRC in mainland China both officially claiming to be the legitimate government of all China. After the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis, both tacitly ceased fire in 1979; however, no armistice or peace treaty has ever been signed.^[10]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War

 

IOW, Chinese politicians (republicans) who overthrown monarchy (1911-12), established republic government in China (i.e. China mainland and Taiwan island).. Communist guerrillas overthrew them in mainland China ('50-'60), but republicans fled to the last place they had - the island of Taiwan, where they still reside today.

 

Why do you gave more right for Chinese Communist Party, than to Republic of China party?

 

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Why do you gave more right for Chinese Communist Party, than to Republic of China party?

Probably bc it’s way easier to be a pathetic little pant pissing troll that way. He’s been a member here all of about 2 weeks and yet already has a negative 21 rep score. 

[MigL]

Gotta love it when someone comes in after 50 paes, and posts stuff that has already been discussed at length in those 50 pages.

NATO is not an expansionist organzation. It was set up to counter Russian expansionism after WW2, as Eastern Europe ( eventually Warsaw Pact ) was already under their military control.
And it seems to be working just fine, because every time Russia attempts expansion by annexing another independent state ( like Ukraine ), NATO membership tends to increase dramatically.

 

Taiwan was liberated from the Japanese after WW2, and placed under the governance of the ROC ( Kuomintang ), the official ruling Government of China, at that time.
A few years later ( 1949 ) the Kuomintang were defeated, on the mainland, by the Communist forces during the Chinese Civil War, and the Kuomintang, under Chang Kai Sheckretreated their forces, and ROC government to the island of Taiwan.

See here     History of Taiwan (1945–present) - Wikipedia

Maybe you can explain to me how politicised Chinese citizens are occupying territory that China has the right to take back  ????
Remember that North America was mostly British, until the Americans fought a Civil War against the British, to establish independence. The British then,  retreated to Canada, where they have had their own Government for about 150 years longer than Taiwan has.
Does that mean Canada rightfully belongs to Americans, and we canadians are 'politicised Americans' ?
Learn some history ...

 

The natural order is dictatorship ?
You may be right. In nature pack animals usually compete for the dominant spot ( nature's way of selecting the strongest genes for reproduction ) but we seem to have evolved past our animal instincs.At least in some parts of the world.
This is exemplified by your ability to post anti-social garbage without retribution.
Try that in China.

Better yet, go live with wolves.
See how you make out ...

 

Cross posted with Sensei

Edited August 2, 2022 by MigL

[iNow]

43 minutes ago, MigL said:

Gotta love it when someone comes in after 50 paes, and posts stuff that has already been discussed at length in those 50 pages.

At least it gives fine fellas like you the opportunity to once again set the record straight. Nice post. 

43 minutes ago, MigL said:

The natural order is dictatorship ?
You may be right. In nature pack animals usually compete for the dominant spot ( nature's way of selecting the strongest genes for reproduction ) but we seem to have evolved past our animal instincs

Not entirely, but it’s long been known that cooperation in nature and strength in numbers is one of the easiest most consistent ways animals are able to topple dominant individuals. 

[MigL]

Apparently FlghtRadar24 , a site which tracks civilian and some military air traffic was 'down' for a couple of hours earlier today.
It effectively suffered a 'denial of service' because of the most tracked flight in history; so many logged on to view N Pelosi's flight into Taiwan,  that the site was swamped.

Good for her; the world ( and dictatorships ) need to know that we will support nations like Ukraine and Taiwan against aggression from 'bully' nations

[iNow]

30 minutes ago, MigL said:

Good for her; the world ( and dictatorships ) need to know that we will support nations like Ukraine and Taiwan against aggression from 'bully' nations

Agreed. I was glad to see her showing some spine. Even (some) republicans are praising her. 

[MigL]

The lady does have resolve.
( didn't want to say 'balls' )

In a bright pink suit, yet ...

[SergUpstart]

Dictators are different. There was Pol Pot, but there were also Lee Kuan and Park Chung Hee, who made their countries prosperous.

[SergUpstart]

On 8/1/2022 at 4:42 PM, MigL said:

If China totally destroys the island, the world will turn against them.

China is beginning to establish a naval and air blockade of the island. The import of sand to Taiwan and the export of fish and citrus fruits from Taiwan have already been banned. (There is no sand in Taiwan, and construction is impossible without sand)

[Greg A.]

13 hours ago, iNow said:

Maybe support democracy and stop murdering his opponents and countrymen?

Putin is a monster, the Left a bigger monster. 

12 hours ago, Sensei said:

I suggest learning more about the history..

 

"The official name of the country (Taiwan) in English is the "Republic of China" (ROC); it has also been known under various names throughout its existence. Shortly after the ROC's establishment in 1912, while it was still located on the Chinese mainland,"

"During the 1950s and 1960s, after the ROC government had withdrawn to Taiwan upon losing the Chinese Civil War, it was commonly referred to as "Nationalist China" (or "Free China") to differentiate it from "Communist China" (or "Red China")."

"The Republic of China, which had overthrown the Qing in 1911, took control of Taiwan on behalf of the Allies of World War II following the surrender of Japan in 1945. The resumption of the Chinese Civil War resulted in the ROC's loss of mainland China to forces of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and consequent retreat to Taiwan in 1949. Its effective jurisdiction has since been limited to Taiwan and smaller islands. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

 

"The Communists gained control of mainland China and established the People's Republic of China (PRC) in 1949, forcing the leadership of the Republic of China to retreat to the island of Taiwan.^[9] Starting in the 1950s, a lasting political and military standoff between the two sides of the Taiwan Strait has ensued, with the ROC in Taiwan and the PRC in mainland China both officially claiming to be the legitimate government of all China. After the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis, both tacitly ceased fire in 1979; however, no armistice or peace treaty has ever been signed.^[10]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War

 

IOW, Chinese politicians (republicans) who overthrown monarchy (1911-12), established republic government in China (i.e. China mainland and Taiwan island).. Communist guerrillas overthrew them in mainland China ('50-'60), but republicans fled to the last place they had - the island of Taiwan, where they still reside today.

 

Why do you gave more right for Chinese Communist Party, than to Republic of China party?

 

Why should China respect its enemies. And why shouldn't they take back what is theirs. The Left is putting the same pressure on China as it did with Russia. Democratic elections have given us the most disastrous form of government ever invented and it is this that's causing the problem.

 

13 hours ago, iNow said:

Thanks for the offer, but I’m not at all interested in chasing such obvious red herrings and strawmen.

The average intelligence of a majority results in at best average government. The complexities of running a country then turns average to bad. This is an unavoidable fact. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Greg A.

[J.C.MacSwell]

29 minutes ago, Greg A. said:

Putin is a monster, the Left a bigger monster. 

Why should China respect its enemies. And why shouldn't they take back what is theirs. The Left is putting the same pressure on China as it did with Russia. Democratic elections have given us the most disastrous form of government ever invented and it is this that's causing the problem.

 

The average intelligence of a majority results in at best average government. The complexities of running a country then turns average to bad. This is an unavoidable fact. 

Probably out of respect for the size and scope of the task, the Republic of China is probably best to stick with governing Taiwan, and not attempt to take back mainland China...even though it was taken from them.

[Bufofrog]

8 hours ago, SergUpstart said:

Dictators are different. There was Pol Pot, but there were also Lee Kuan and Park Chung Hee, who made their countries prosperous.

My  dad use to say a benign dictatorship is the best form of government, but unfortunately there is no way to keep it benign over time.

[StringJunky]

14 hours ago, MigL said:

The lady does have resolve.
( didn't want to say 'balls' )

In a bright pink suit, yet ...

She's got spunk. We don't say this is in the uk but  it is/was a complimentt in the US.

Edited August 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[Trurl]

I love freedom and democracy but is it right for every country?

Strategically probably not. Did George W. Bush do this with Husain?

Sure it would be great to give democracy and stop the spread of communism. But wasn’t that be Vietnam?

Every country is to blame. Let’s “spread democracy” and kill thousands on both sides until it isn’t profitable.

 

And what is the purpose of Pelosi of ticking of China? That is no better than rocket man launching or Iran threatening to building a nuclear program.

I would say the people of other countries would love democracy. But the leaders are threatened by it. To put it in relation to psychology, it is like having an atheist believe. How will a country react to the fact outsiders want to change the rules? Not a smart move to force beliefs on anyone. On both sides.

[iNow]

42 minutes ago, Trurl said:

I love freedom and democracy but is it right for every country?

That might be an interesting question to explore in its own thread, but it’s off-topic here.

42 minutes ago, Trurl said:

And what is the purpose of Pelosi of ticking of China? That is no better than rocket man launching or Iran threatening to building a nuclear program.

Yes, the equivalent of a tourist visit for 2-4 hours plus a couple of meetings and photos is EXACTLY the same as threatening neighbors by launching experimental rockets into the Sea of Japan. I’m SO glad someone is finally brave enough to remind us of this simple truth. /sarcasm

US Congressional representatives have been visiting Taiwan pretty regularly for decades, so the better question is why has China decided to suddenly wet their bed and throw a massive tantrum over this latest visit. 

42 minutes ago, Trurl said:

Not a smart move to force beliefs on anyone.

And you’re now suggesting her 3 hour lunch date in Taiwan is best described as “forcing her beliefs on others?” Oh my… are you always this melodramatic? Shall we fetch you a fainting couch?

Edited August 4, 2022 by iNow