War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[zapatos]

14 hours ago, MigL said:

70-80 000 Russian soldiers dead by latest estimates.

I believe that is 70-80,000 casualties. Maybe 20,000 or so dead.

[MigL]

You're right; my mistake.
As many as 80000 Russian soldiers killed, or wounded, in Ukrainian conflict.

As Many as 80,000 Russian Forces Killed, Wounded in Ukraine: Pentagon | World Report | US News

[Sensei]

This is the story of the people who passed through the "Russian infiltration camps".

Original:

"Російські фільтраційні табори. Українці розповідають про принизливі огляди, допити та хабарі

З початку повномасштабної війни росія розгорнула систему так званих фільтраційних таборів. Через них доводиться проходити всім українцям, які хочуть виїхати на території, підконтрольні Україні. Важко повірити, яких принижень зазнають люди, щоб вирватися на волю. Ми поспілкувалися з ними й дізналися про все з перших вуст.

Українці, які були в російських фільтраційних таборах на окупованих територіях, розповідають, що вони пережили там. 17-річна Марія Вдовиченко жила в Маріуполі. В один із днів квартира її сім’ї згоріла від прямого влучання російського снаряда. Тоді вона з батьком вирішила виїхати з міста.  "Ми взяли найнеобхідніше й вирушили в дорогу на своїй автівці. Навколо тривали бої, але в нас була мета: вибратися з цього пекла", — розповідає дівчина. На одному з блокпостів їх скерували до селища Мангуш — для проходження фільтрації. Там були величезні черги, люди днями перебували без їжі та води. Окупанти максимально все затягували. І так було не тільки тут, а й в інших "таборах".

Фільтраційні табори росії: допитують навіть про книги і хобі

 "Дійшло до того, що ми стояли в черзі на автобус, яким проїдемо 200 метрів до нової черги, — каже 39-річна Наталія Кальна, яка також із сім’єю намагалась виїхати з Маріуполя і котру скерували на фільтрацію у селище Нікольське. — Щодня нам потрібно було приходити о 9-й ранку й чекати, чи буде хоч якесь просування. Для нас це все тривало майже півтора місяця!"  Сім’ї Наталії довелося заплатити окупантові 100 доларів, аби пришвидшити потрапляння на... допит. Цю процедуру проходять усі, кому більше як 16 років. 

Жінка розповідає: на допит викликали по одному. Питали про професію, ставлення до української влади, росіян, війни і навіть про книги та хобі. Обов’язково вивчали мобільні телефони. "Я залишила на гаджеті трохи нейтральних фото, а батько повністю почистив усе, — ділиться Марія Вдовиченко. — Це викликало в окупантів підозру... Тата лупцювали, морально тиснули, погрожували покалічити та вбити. Коли ж зрозуміли, що це не дає результату, на прощання сильно вдарили по голові. Оговтався він уже на вулиці. Під знущальні вигуки росіян ледве дістався нашої автівки..."

Другий етап фільтрації: беруть відбитки пальців і не тільки 

Після допиту українців відправляють на другий етап фільтрації — внесення даних у єдину базу росії. Для цього беруть відбитки пальців, руки та долоні, а також роблять фото. Лише опісля видають папірець, який дає дозвіл на виїзд. Проте отримати той "документ" щастить не всім.  "Пам’ятаю, як при нас виводили людей, які не пройшли фільтрацію, — зазначає Наталія. — Їх саджали в якісь автобуси й везли у невідомому напрямку..." 

Тож можна сказати, що нашим співрозмовникам перепустка на волю далася малою кров’ю. На відміну від 25-річного волонтера Ігоря Талалая, який евакуйовував людей із Маріуполя. Його схопили на одному з блокпостів. "Я був взутий у черевики, це не сподобалося "деенерівцям", — каже харків’янин. — Так само, як і патріотичні світлини в моєму телефоні. Цього виявилось достатньо, щоб позбавити мене волі". 

Ігор потрапив до рук окупантів 19 березня, а на волі опинився аж 15 червня. Спочатку він майже три тижні просидів за гратами у відділку поліції в окупованому Мангуші (у камері, розрахованій на 5 — 6 людей, було 32!), потім — у Докучаєвську. "Нас не просто утримували, а й проводили постійні допити, били та морально тиснули, — пригадує чоловік. — Росіяни хотіли вибити з мене зізнання у тому, що я якось пов’язаний із військовими. Коли ж заперечував це, звинувачували в брехні". 

За якийсь час Ігоря Талалая перевезли в колонію у сумнозвісній Оленівці. Умови там були не кращі: двоповерхова будівля без санвузла, в якій дуже тхнуло. Люди спали на старих матрацах чи просто на бетоні. Їсти давали, але порції були настільки малі, що навіть не втамовували голод. 

Як пережити фільтрацію? "Допомагає віра"

 Людей, з якими харків’янин перебував у колонії, також утримували безпідставно. "Наприклад, там був чоловік, якого кинули за грати за татуювання герба України, — ділиться співрозмовник. — Також із нами утримували пастора: духовна освіта, здобута у Львові, була для росіян вагомою причиною, аби позбавити волі його із сином, а їхнє майно забрати".

Ігор еві пощастило вибратися з полону. Допомогло те, що долею чоловіка опікувалися міжнародні гуманітарні організації. Після пережитого йому таки виписали довідку про проходження фільтрації... 

"Увесь той жах нам допомогла пережити віра, що Бог не дає на долю людини випробування, які вона не може витримати, — підсумовує Марія Вдовиченко. — Ну й бажання вижити: на зло окупантові, який робить усе, щоб нас знищити".

Віталій МІКУЛА"

 

 

Google translated version:

"Russian filtration camps. Ukrainians talk about humiliating examinations, interrogations and bribes Since the beginning of the full-scale war, Russia has deployed a system of so-called filtration camps. All Ukrainians who want to leave the territories controlled by Ukraine have to go through them. It's hard to believe the humiliations people go through to break free. We talked to them and learned about everything firsthand.

Ukrainians who were in Russian infiltration camps in the occupied territories tell what they experienced there. 17-year-old Maria Vdovichenko lived in Mariupol. One day, her family's apartment burned down as a result of a direct hit by a Russian shell. Then she and her father decided to leave the city. "We took the most necessary things and set off in our car. Fighting was going on all around, but we had a goal: to get out of this hell," says the girl. At one of the checkpoints, they were directed to the village of Mangush - to undergo filtration. There were huge queues, people were without food and water for days. The occupiers delayed everything as much as possible. And so it was not only here, but also in other "camps".

Filtering camps of Russia: even books and hobbies are interrogated

"It got to the point that we were standing in line for a bus that would take us 200 meters to the next line," says 39-year-old Nataliya Kalna, who also tried to leave Mariupol with her family and was directed to the village of Nikolske for filtering. "Every day we had to come in at 9 in the morning and wait to see if there was any progress. It took us almost a month and a half!" Natalya's family had to pay the occupier 100 dollars to speed up getting to... interrogation. This procedure is carried out by everyone who is over 16 years old.

The woman says: they called one by one for questioning. They asked about the profession, the attitude towards the Ukrainian authorities, the Russians, the war, and even about books and hobbies. Mobile phones were definitely studied. "I left some neutral photos on the gadget, and my father completely cleaned everything," says Maria Vdovichenko. in farewell, they hit him hard on the head. He recovered already on the street. Under the mocking shouts of the Russian, he barely reached our car..."

The second stage of filtering: they take fingerprints and more

After interrogation, the Ukrainians are sent to the second stage of filtering — entering data into a unified Russian database. For this, fingerprints, hands and palms are taken, and a photo is taken. Only after that, they issue a paper that gives permission to leave. However, not everyone is lucky enough to receive that "document". "I remember how people who didn't pass the screening were taken out with us," notes Nataliya. "They were put on some buses and taken to an unknown destination..."

So we can say that our interlocutors were given a free pass with little blood. In contrast to the 25-year-old volunteer Igor Talalay, who evacuated people from Mariupol. He was caught at one of the checkpoints. "I was wearing boots, the Deener people didn't like that," says the Kharkiv native. "Just like the patriotic photos in my phone. This was enough to deprive me of my freedom."

Igor fell into the hands of the occupiers on March 19, and was released on June 15. First, he spent almost three weeks behind bars at the police station in occupied Mangush (there were 32 in a cell designed for 5-6 people!), then in Dokuchaevsk. "We were not just detained, but also constantly interrogated, beaten and morally pressured," the man recalls. "The Russians wanted to force a confession out of me that I was somehow connected with the military. When I denied it, they accused me of lying."

After some time, Ihor Talalai was transferred to the colony in the infamous Olenivka. The conditions there were no better: a two-story building without a bathroom, which smelled very bad. People slept on old mattresses or simply on concrete. They gave me food, but the portions were so small that they did not even satisfy my hunger.

How to survive filtering? "Faith helps"

The people with whom the Kharkiv resident was in the colony were also detained without reason. "For example, there was a man who was thrown behind bars for tattooing the coat of arms of Ukraine," the interlocutor shares. take".

Igor was lucky to get out of captivity. It helped that the man's fate was taken care of by international humanitarian organizations. After what he experienced, he was issued a certificate of passing the filtration...

"We were helped to survive all that horror by the belief that God does not give man trials that he cannot withstand," concludes Maria Vdovichenko.

Vitaly Mikula"

 

[mistermack]

On 8/10/2022 at 9:46 PM, MigL said:

As Many as 80,000 Russian Forces Killed, Wounded in Ukraine: Pentagon | World Report | US News

That report is just meaningless propeganda. 

"Russia has endured as many as 80,000 casualties since President Vladimir Putin ordered the invasion of Ukraine in February, according to the latest assessment from the Pentagon of the steep costs Moscow has paid.

Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Colin Kahl told reporters on Monday that the number of Russian soldiers killed or wounded in the fighting is somewhere between 70,000 and 80,000. Kahl, effectively the No. 3 civilian at the Pentagon, added that the number “is pretty remarkable given that Russia has achieved none of Vladimir Putin’s objectives in Ukraine.”

Firstly the word wounded is almost meaningless. Secondly, he doesn't say how he knows. ( He just guessed of course ) Thirdly "None of Putins objectives" ???   Putin has nearly all of the east, and a substantial land bridge now to Crimea. He controls all of Ukraine's ports in that ships can only come and go with his permission. And Ukrain now has no prospect of joining Nato, because it has territorial disputes running that will never end. 

And of course, he now has sky high prices for his oil and gas, and Europe is suffering hugely economically. And his economy is doing very well, in spite of the propeganda put out about the Russian economic disaster. Imports are hugely down and exports are up in value, because the Ruble is now so strong, and commodity prices are so high. 

 

[TheVat]

Sposiba for that, tovaritch!

Meanwhile, blowing up the Kerch Strait bridge would be a nice setback for Russia.  Good luck and straight shooting to Ukraine.

https://archive.ph/kzvt0#a-bridge-to-crimea-is-a-vital-russian-link-and-a-potential-ukrainian-target

(screenshot of New York Times coverage, for the paywall challenged)

[swansont]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

That report is just meaningless propeganda. 

"Russia has endured as many as 80,000 casualties since President Vladimir Putin ordered the invasion of Ukraine in February, according to the latest assessment from the Pentagon of the steep costs Moscow has paid.

Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Colin Kahl told reporters on Monday that the number of Russian soldiers killed or wounded in the fighting is somewhere between 70,000 and 80,000. Kahl, effectively the No. 3 civilian at the Pentagon, added that the number “is pretty remarkable given that Russia has achieved none of Vladimir Putin’s objectives in Ukraine.”

Firstly the word wounded is almost meaningless. Secondly, he doesn't say how he knows. ( He just guessed of course ) Thirdly "None of Putins objectives" ???   Putin has nearly all of the east, and a substantial land bridge now to Crimea. He controls all of Ukraine's ports in that ships can only come and go with his permission. And Ukrain now has no prospect of joining Nato, because it has territorial disputes running that will never end. 

And of course, he now has sky high prices for his oil and gas, and Europe is suffering hugely economically. And his economy is doing very well, in spite of the propeganda put out about the Russian economic disaster. Imports are hugely down and exports are up in value, because the Ruble is now so strong, and commodity prices are so high. 

 

"he doesn't say how he knows"

And neither did you.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Looks like Russia is starting to experience some of the nastier consequences of the Special Operation.

Darya Dugina, 29 year old daughter of Aleksandr Dugin, a Russian far-right political philosopher and a supporter of Russian president Vladimir Putin, has been killed just outside of Moscow in what is likely to have been an assassination attempt on Dugin himself.

https://news.sky.com/story/daughter-of-russian-ultra-nationalist-killed-in-suspected-car-bomb-attack-12678269

[iNow]

46 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Looks like Russia is starting to experience some of the nastier consequences of the Special Operation.

It’s sad, but another part of me wonders if this is just another false flag operation conducted by Putin like he did in 1999 to help him rise to power in the first place 

https://news.yahoo.com/bloody-czar-did-false-flag-175812204.html

[SergUpstart]

11 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

ooks like Russia is starting to experience some of the nastier consequences of the Special Operation.

Darya Dugina, 29 year old daughter of Aleksandr Dugin, a Russian far-right political philosopher and a supporter of Russian president Vladimir Putin, has been killed just outside of Moscow in what is likely to have been an assassination attempt on Dugin himself.

The FSB announced the discovery of the murder of Russian journalist Daria Dugina

The Ukrainian special services are behind the murder

🔻 The performer is a citizen of Ukraine Natalia Vovk, born in 1979

🔻 She arrived in Russia on July 23 with her daughter Sofia Shaban

🔻 They rented an apartment in the house where Dugina lived in Moscow

🔻 A "Mini Cooper" was used to spy on the girl. The numbers were changed three times on it - the license plates of the DPR, Kazakhstan and Ukraine were used

On the day of the crime, Vovk and his daughter came to the Tradition festival, and after the controlled explosion on August 21, they left via Pskov for Estonia

[geordief]

35 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

The FSB announced the discovery of the murder of Russian journalist Daria Dugina

The Ukrainian special services are behind the murder

🔻 The performer is a citizen of Ukraine Natalia Vovk, born in 1979

🔻 She arrived in Russia on July 23 with her daughter Sofia Shaban

🔻 They rented an apartment in the house where Dugina lived in Moscow

🔻 A "Mini Cooper" was used to spy on the girl. The numbers were changed three times on it - the license plates of the DPR, Kazakhstan and Ukraine were used

On the day of the crime, Vovk and his daughter came to the Tradition festival, and after the controlled explosion on August 21, they left via Pskov for Estonia

Because the Russian  information services are so trustworthy....

(Not that something along those lines is incredible ,just that  nobody with a brain cell would trust Russian sources at this point)

 

 

 

[SergUpstart]

Businessman Konstantin Malofeev, at the request of Alexander Dugin, published his statement:

"As you all know, as a result of a terrorist attack carried out by the Nazi Ukrainian regime, on August 20, when returning from the Tradition festival near Moscow, my daughter Daria Dugina was brutally killed by an explosion in front of my eyes. She was a beautiful Orthodox girl, a patriot, a military officer, an expert on central channels, a philosopher. Her speeches and reports have always been deep, grounded and restrained. She never called for violence and war.
She was a rising star at the beginning of her career.

The enemies of Russia have viciously, surreptitiously killed her. But we, our people, cannot be broken even by such unbearable blows. They wanted to suppress our will with bloody terror against the best and most vulnerable of us. But they won't get their way. Our hearts are not just hungry for revenge or retribution, it's too petty, not in Russian. We only need our Victory. My daughter laid her maiden life on her altar. So win, please! We wanted to raise her as a smart girl and a hero. Let her inspire the sons of our Motherland to the feat even now," Alexander Dugin said.

[Phi for All]

11 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

"As you all know, as a result of a terrorist attack carried out by the Nazi Ukrainian regime,

Since it's already been established that the whole Ukraine/Nazi connection is a complete gaslight, I assume everything said after this point is equally untrue and aimed at perverting the truth. Red herrings for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, SergUpstart said:

She arrived in Russia on July 23 with her daughter Sofia Shaban

Yes, I always take my kid with me when I perform an international assassination, because they're such an asset for making a quick getaway.

[TheVat]

12 hours ago, iNow said:

It’s sad, but another part of me wonders if this is just another false flag operation conducted by Putin like he did in 1999 to help him rise to power in the first place 

https://news.yahoo.com/bloody-czar-did-false-flag-175812204.html

Also wondered.  False Flag is SOP for Russians.  With satellite photos and live video on the ground these days, conventional FF (military attacks) is harder to pull off so it makes covert attacks like car bombings more attractive.  

[SergUpstart]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Since it's already been established that the whole Ukraine/Nazi connection is a complete gaslight, I assume everything said after this point is equally untrue and aimed at perverting the truth. Red herrings for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

There is no Nazism in Ukraine

[geordief]

38 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

There is no Nazism in Ukraine

Makes a change for Nazis to be the scapegoats rather than the scapegoaters.

[J.C.MacSwell]

31 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

There is no Nazism in Ukraine

There's right wing extremists in most countries. Russia included.

Alexander Dugin, for example.

[SergUpstart]

A photo of Natalia Volk (Shaban) official ID appeared on the web, she is suspected of the murder of Daria Dugina

In December 2014, military unit 3057 was reorganized into the 18th Operational Regiment of the National Guard of Ukraine. It included the Azov and Donbass battalions. In October 2019, the 12th Operational Brigade of the National Guard of Ukraine was deployed on the basis of the 18th Operational Regiment[3].

10 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

There's right wing extremists in most countries. Russia included.

Alexander Dugin, for example.

There are right-wing extremists, but not Nazis. Russia is a multinational country, so nationalism would inevitably lead to the collapse of Russia. Therefore, Putin dealt very harshly with the Russian Nazis ten years ago. The most famous Russian Nazi named Tesak hanged himself in a prison in Chelyabinsk because of ill-treatment.

[MigL]

37 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

Russia is a multinational country, so nationalism would inevitably lead to the collapse of Russia.

I think you mean the USSR, not Russia.
That happened already in 1989; Get over it already.

And stop trying to re-aquire all those now sovereign countries, like the Ukraine, that despise your brutality, and want to govern themselves.

[mistermack]

58 minutes ago, MigL said:

And stop trying to re-aquire all those now sovereign countries, like the Ukraine, that despise your brutality, and want to govern themselves.

What'dya mean Clint???

That's how the West was won !!

[MigL]

18 minutes ago, mistermack said:

What'dya mean Clint???
That's how the West was won !!

Exactly the same way Russia extended her borders from the Kievan Rusus area about 10 centuries ago, all the way to the Pacific and beyond ( alaska ? )

Kievan Rus' - Wikipedia

In which case the Ukraine was the 'birthplace' of today's Russia.

But why bring the past into the discussion ?

Should we compare the behaviour of the Mongol Hordes of Genghis Khan?
( for a 'local' example )
Or the behaviour and conquests of the Roman Empire ?
Or the Macedonian Greeks of Alexander the Great ?

Or maybe you want to go back to Homo Sapiens displacing Homo Neanderthalis in Europe 35-50 000 years ago, to excuse the fact that TODAY, Russians are invading a sovereign country.

n

[J.C.MacSwell]

Russia can make arguments all day long, but the "see what you made me do" doesn't justify invading another country, never mind reckless killing and targeting of civilians and threatening multiple levels of nuclear disasters.

Putin and his ilk are largely to blame, but the willful ignorance of the average Russian isn't so impressive either. How smart do you have to be to recognize the continuous self contradictions of the state media, the ones now calling for retribution against Kiev for the murder of Dugina. (like they know the Ukraine government was behind it, because the Kremlin said so before even investigating)

No one is suggesting indiscriminate bombing of Moscow...but if they want to be consistent rather than hypocritical, the Russian state media should advocate for it.

End of rant.

[mistermack]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

But why bring the past into the discussion ?

Because the USA, a country built on stolen lands, on the backs of slavery, never stops lecturing the world, if they act a bit differently to them. Cuba committed the crime of taking it's country back under it's own control, away from the US mafia. The US has always considered Cuba as it's own property, and just like Putin, they tried invading to take it back when they lost control, and when that failed, conducted a vicious economic war for seventy years. 

The US like Russia invaded Afghanistan, after all the condemnation of Russia for doing so. They invaded Iraq under false pretences twice. They tried to take over Vietnam, to impose their own puppet government on it, and tried to win hearts and minds by blowing them to bits, and burning them with phosporus bombs and napalm.  

With the US, it's always been, don't do as we do, do as we say.        OR ELSE !!  

But of course, the American kids are brought up on a diet of "pioneer" history, not murder, theft and slavery. And Hollywood was built on the same lie. 

[Phi for All]

17 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Because the USA, a country built on stolen lands, on the backs of slavery, never stops lecturing the world, if they act a bit differently to them.

Well, we learned well from our colonial masters, the British. 

[mistermack]

1 minute ago, Phi for All said:

Well, we learned well from our colonial masters, the British. 

Took a while to learn that slavery was not cricket. Or that blacks could drink the same water as whites.