War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

What usual weapons can destroy missiles in silos in the middle of South Dakota....

This is such a common mistake.  All missiles were removed from South Dakota, 1992-1994.  They were Minuteman II missiles and my wife and I saw one being carted off down a highway.  The adjacent states of ND and WY still have some, and I agree with your pointed question there.

One of the silos was two miles from her family land, and we drove past a couple times.  A rancher bought the property and used the surface blockhouse for a residence.  

[Sensei]

..be prepared for the worst..

 

[DimaMazin]

1 hour ago, geordief said:

 

 

What  does "scientifically senseless" mean ,anyway.? 

 

**all contributions and proposals welcome

 

56 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Can you answer my question first?

What do you mean by "scientifically backward" and  "scientifically senseless"?

Submarine may be destroyed by torpedo or missile. Not always you can define the destroyer.

Sivil war can left missiles in silos without sequrity.

Apply of the weapon leds you to new weapon of stouns and sticks.😛What is scientific sence there?

[geordief]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Wanting to live with difficulty rather than being dead is vain? Glad you are not in charge of the medical system.

No  I think he is right.Unless we all accept that we will all be losers (and painfully mutilated and sickly losers in the event of a full scale -or less than full scale nuclear war) then the likelihood of that happening increases.

 

Those who stock up and invest in their bunkers are indirectly  dooming those who do not.

 

Politicians and generals  in charge of these decisions  have to prepare for their  own survival or the credibility  of their threat  will be diminished but they really have as much prospects as Hitler in his bunker if such a war is fought. 

 

Those investing in post apocalyptic  survival are really just taking a random Hobson's choice

Far better to invest in politicians who will not lead us down this path in the first place.

 

[StringJunky]

Quote

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Friday that the remaining civilian population should be evacuated from the city of Kherson in Russian-occupied southern Ukraine as all indicators suggested the battle for the strategically key city on the Dnipro River was imminent.

"Now, of course, those who live in Kherson must be removed from the zone of the most dangerous actions," Putin said during a walkabout on Red Square where he had been meeting youth volunteers from Russian-occupied areas of Ukraine on Friday. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/11/04/putin-urges-remaining-civilians-in-kherson-to-leave-city-a79293

If he wants the civilians out, does this look like a prelude to another scorched Earth attack on Kherson?

[MigL]

2 hours ago, geordief said:

No  I think he is right.Unless we all accept that we will all be losers (and painfully mutilated and sickly losers in the event of a full scale -or less than full scale nuclear war) then the likelihood of that happening increases.

Right.
The Germans were also trying to develop nuclear weapons during WW2.
We should have just capitulated, and averted a possibly disastrous nuclear war.
Many more would survive; except the Jews, Poles, Homosexuals, disabled, mentally ill, all the oppressed people of Europe, ...

[geordief]

38 minutes ago, MigL said:

Right.
The Germans were also trying to develop nuclear weapons during WW2.
We should have just capitulated, and averted a possibly disastrous nuclear war.
Many more would survive; except the Jews, Poles, Homosexuals, disabled, mentally ill, all the oppressed people of Europe, ...

It is different now  with many countries fully supplied with arsenals and overkill just a couple of clicks away.

 

You are not seriously asking us to use the end of www2 as a template for how we should approach this subject?

 

Address the current situation.Things have moved right along.

[iNow]

PBS Frontline. Documenting the case for war crimes. Visceral feeling of what it’s like to be in the towns that were occupied and how the executions occurred. 
 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/putins-attack-on-ukraine-documenting-war-crimes/

 

[Sensei]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Documenting the case for war crimes. Visceral feeling of what it’s like to be in the towns that were occupied and how the executions occurred. 

..not without a reason V.P. soldiers attacking Kiev in February-March had mobile crematoria with them... They wanted to exterminate the Ukrainian intelligentsia and politicians, and vaporize them, to have no trace of it..

Edited November 10, 2022 by Sensei

[TheVat]

Frontline has some good in-depth features.  And they often partner with excellent investigative news organizations, like ProPublica.  I can tell this episode will be hard to watch.  Not sure I quite grasp what Koti's (now trashed) reply was about.  If he can regain some equilibrium I would be okay with having a civil chat about it.  

 

[zapatos]

He needs to be gone. I'm afraid he's crossed over to some place that is no longer compatible with this site.

[iNow]

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

Not sure I quite grasp what Koti's (now trashed) reply was about.  If he can regain some equilibrium I would be okay with having a civil chat about it.  

Yeah, I didn’t follow it either and would be curious to have any of my blind spots illuminated (especially given his proximity to the situation).

I thought it was a good piece (and I share your respect for frontline and propublica). Local. On the ground. From the mouths of those experiencing it. Showing the actual spots where people were being executed. The forests where Russian camps and resupply areas were setup. How people were being tortured. 

If I’m missing something, then I’d love to know so can stop being wrong

Edited November 11, 2022 by iNow

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

He needs to be gone. I'm afraid he's crossed over to some place that is no longer compatible with this site.

Your choice of words, "crossed over," gave me an eerie visual of a horned ferryman and a three-headed dog.  

 

[TheVat]

This is just some background reading on what some foreign policy experts are saying we should be thinking about, in terms of a possible escalation to war with either China or Russia.  About a ten minute read.  Among other things, it gets into what scenarios are likely if the US actually decided to give military support (direct action) to Taiwan, and how few living Americans have real experience of a world war and the levels of sacrifice and suffering it would involve.  

https://archive.ph/2022.12.02-155532/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/opinion/america-world-war-iii.html

(PW free screenshot)

[iNow]

A good article. Would only challenge how he doesn’t really seem to accept that we’re already right now today living through a relatively “hot” cyber war where tens of thousands of attack vectors are being deployed every minute of every day. 

Those interactions would intensify in the event of escalation, but the consistency with which they’re being used right now makes it hard for me to accept calling the current baseline as “peaceful” or even just “cold.”

Totally agree about populace not being prepared for the ramifications of an escalation, though. They are too busy blaming Biden for higher fuel prices and delays in the global supply chain. 

[DimaMazin]

On 12/3/2022 at 10:00 PM, iNow said:

A good article. Would only challenge how he doesn’t really seem to accept that we’re already right now today living through a relatively “hot” cyber war where tens of thousands of attack vectors are being deployed every minute of every day. 

Those interactions would intensify in the event of escalation, but the consistency with which they’re being used right now makes it hard for me to accept calling the current baseline as “peaceful” or even just “cold.”

Totally agree about populace not being prepared for the ramifications of an escalation, though. They are too busy blaming Biden for higher fuel prices and delays in the global supply chain. 

Is that caused by delay of weapons for Ukraine?

[iNow]

No

[iNow]

A pile of remains from some of the VERY many Russian rockets that have struck Kharkiv, Ukraine.

 

Photo: Libkos/AP

[iNow]

[TheVat]

One of the lowest of the estimates out there.  CJCS (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) has it at 40,000 civilian casualties.

My guess is that this is due to differing definitions of what are war caused deaths/injuries, some including more indirect causes.  Everyone counts someone killed or seriously injured by munitions landing near them or being shot, but not everyone may count the heart attack of someone who was running away or digging out or cases of people dying of pre-existing health conditions due to interruptions in medical care and/or medicine supplies.  There would also be deaths of despair for which war conditions were the precipitating factor. 

If this seems pretty grim, add in what happens in terms of deaths from freezing (and fleeing) if Putin's current campaign against power utilities is not countered by further western alliance donations of anti-missile systems (like the Patriot missiles now planned).

[geordief]

52 minutes ago, TheVat said:

One of the lowest of the estimates out there.  CJCS (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) has it at 40,000 civilian casualties.

My guess is that this is due to differing definitions of what are war caused deaths/injuries, some including more indirect causes.  Everyone counts someone killed or seriously injured by munitions landing near them or being shot, but not everyone may count the heart attack of someone who was running away or digging out or cases of people dying of pre-existing health conditions due to interruptions in medical care and/or medicine supplies.  There would also be deaths of despair for which war conditions were the precipitating factor. 

If this seems pretty grim, add in what happens in terms of deaths from freezing (and fleeing) if Putin's current campaign against power utilities is not countered by further western alliance donations of anti-missile systems (like the Patriot missiles now planned).

I  not sure how effective the Patriot anti-missile system would be against Russia's current campaign against the civilian  infrastructure. 

I get the feeling it may be more intended to counter what may be in the pipeline regarding larger more accurate missiles that Iran may provide in the near future.

 

I think the cost of the Patriots against the current drones may be extremely lopsided and I hope that  Ukraine may weather the present storm without needing to use Patriot systems.

[Lorentz Jr]

21 minutes ago, geordief said:

I hope that  Ukraine may weather the present storm

I hear it's a 1700-unit storm.

[geordief]

1 minute ago, Lorentz Jr said:

I hear it's a 1700-unit storm.

You mean Russia  has enough of these drones to overwhelm Ukraine's defenses and prolong the blackouts through the whole winter?

Do you think the Patriots would have a role in combating  the drones that are causing  the damage at the moment?

[Lorentz Jr]

10 minutes ago, geordief said:

Do you think the Patriots would have a role in combating  the drones that are causing  the damage at the moment?

That's a good question, I don't know. You'd think the US would know about Iranian drones and develop something to defend against them. Small drones in general. It shouldn't have to be that exact model.

Ukraine really needs something though. They needed it at least a month ago.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Lorentz Jr

[iNow]

5 hours ago, TheVat said:

One of the lowest of the estimates out there.  CJCS (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) has it at 40,000 civilian casualties.

Thanks for that correction. The winter deaths will make counting even harder. 

5 hours ago, TheVat said:

If this seems pretty grim

That’s because it is. We really don’t often see siege warfare like this anymore… not at this scale, anyway.