War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[swansont]

14 hours ago, MigL said:

Israel has an abundant supply of natural gas from off-shore wells, and is already supplying gas to Egypt and Jordan. They have capacity to spare, and plans were in the works to build the Med East pipeline to Europe. Until J Biden vetoed it earlier this year.

Canada wanted to build a pipeline to the Eastern seaboard, where gas could be liquified and shipped to Europe. Again J Biden vetoed their construction.

I'd like to know how a US president vetoes projects occurring outside of its borders.

Biden dropped support for the Israel pipeline, as there were concerns about environmental impact and economic feasibility, but that doesn't stop it from happening. The only Canadian pipeline that pops up in a search is Keystone, which was for tar sands oil, and it went south, not east. So it was in the US, which is why it was under US jurisdiction.

[iNow]

4 hours ago, koti said:

a native russian friend of mine who builds expensive high end flashlights for a living. He's pissed at Putin beyond anything, his business (he sold mostly to the US to veterans, retired forces, police) is gone in an instant

Pressure from the private sector is mounting and amplifying sanctions, too.

• Boeing suspended major operations in Moscow, as well as maintenance and technical support for Russian airlines.
• Shell will sever ties with Russian gas giant Gazprom and end its roughly $1 billion financing of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.
• Exxon Mobil says it will exit Russia oil and gas operations valued at more than $4 billion and cease new investment.
• GM, which sells only about 3,000 cars a year in Russia, says it will suspend exporting vehicles.
• Ford suspended operations.
• BMW stopped shipments and will stop production in Russia.
• VW paused delivery of Audis already in Russia so it can adjust car prices to reflect the decline in value of the ruble.
• Harley-Davidson suspended shipments to Russia.
• Adidas suspended its partnership with the Russian Football Union.
• Nike ceased online sales because it can’t guarantee delivery.
• FedEx and UPS suspended shipments.
• Yoox Net-A-Porter Group and Farfetch, luxury e-commerce platforms, are suspending deliveries in Russia.
• Apple paused product sales and limited services (including Apple Pay), on top of ceasing exports to Russia and restricting features in Apple Maps in Ukraine to safeguard civilian safety.
• Dell stopped selling products.
• Walt Disney is pausing film debuts in Russia. Warner Bros., Sony, Paramount and Universal say they won't release films in the country.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

Pressure from the private sector is mounting and amplifying sanctions, too.

• Boeing suspended major operations in Moscow, as well as maintenance and technical support for Russian airlines.
• Shell will sever ties with Russian gas giant Gazprom and end its roughly $1 billion financing of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.
• Exxon Mobil says it will exit Russia oil and gas operations valued at more than $4 billion and cease new investment.
• GM, which sells only about 3,000 cars a year in Russia, says it will suspend exporting vehicles.
• Ford suspended operations.
• BMW stopped shipments and will stop production in Russia.
• VW paused delivery of Audis already in Russia so it can adjust car prices to reflect the decline in value of the ruble.
• Harley-Davidson suspended shipments to Russia.
• Adidas suspended its partnership with the Russian Football Union.
• Nike ceased online sales because it can’t guarantee delivery.
• FedEx and UPS suspended shipments.
• Yoox Net-A-Porter Group and Farfetch, luxury e-commerce platforms, are suspending deliveries in Russia.
• Apple paused product sales and limited services (including Apple Pay), on top of ceasing exports to Russia and restricting features in Apple Maps in Ukraine to safeguard civilian safety.
• Dell stopped selling products.
• Walt Disney is pausing film debuts in Russia. Warner Bros., Sony, Paramount and Universal say they won't release films in the country.

It's hard to see, how Putin has not painted himself into a corner...

[MigL]

You are right, Swansont, veto was the wrong word to use, but the situation with the East Med is still unclear since the US pulled their support in January.
As for Keystone, it was meant to join up with other pipelines to get oil to ports in the Gulf, where the refineries and ports for shipping are.

While it would have been nice if places like Germany had started their transition to green renewable sources decades ago, 'what if' scenarios don't help with the current situation/problem of dependence on Russian resources.

Edited March 3, 2022 by MigL

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's hard to see, how Putin has not painted himself into a corner...

And it's very scary...

[MigL]

I think V Putin should be scared.
Hopefully he will be removed from office, sooner rather than later.
And if he attempts to go nuclear, saner heads prevai, and he is killed.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

I think V Putin should be scared.

That's the problem...

[TheVat]

6 hours ago, koti said:

The good thing is that the world seems to be united, I’m seeing people who have extremely different stances starting to talk to each other and its a great thing pollitically at least here in Europe. China seeing whats happening will think more than twice before they put their hands on Taiwan. 

Yes.  I think some countries decision to join in the sanctions was partly driven by their fears of China and the desire to show Xi what China could face if it moves on Taiwan or other Asian nations.  Or Australia.  

Disagree with your Biden comments, however.  He has done a good job bringing the allies together on strong sanctions.  His work isn't flashy or dramatic, but it's quite competent.  

 

[swansont]

Not being able to get spare parts, and not being able to pay for fuel, is going to put a huge crimp in whatever airline service is still happening.

Not having parts to fix military vehicles, beyond what they have on the shelf, is going to further hamper the invasion.

I imagine the US and other countries are doing a reassessment of supply-chain issues regarding their own military, and the impact on readiness for sustained deployments. 

[mistermack]

On 3/1/2022 at 8:51 PM, TheVat said:

in which a new president was elected in a landslide?

How do you know that? Elections before the coup were pretty evenly balanced. Election after the coup a landslide? That's Ukranian democracy for you. 

 

On 3/1/2022 at 8:51 PM, TheVat said:

As for the "she was asking for it" argument, I think Charon and Swanson addressed that pretty well.  

Really, I thought it was just silly spin. 

As far as the posts above are concerned, re the effect of sanctions, it appears that all of the companies are selling luxury goods into Russia. That's not going to hit Russia at all. They will manage fine without Harley Davidsons, or Adidas trainers, or Apple phones. They might struggle without the vital Disney products, but russians are tough enough to get through even that. 

Koti's list of war news is just plain silly, obviously pure invention out of someone's head. I don't thing tanks even have catalytic converters, it sounds like fantasy to me. 

In general, Russia exports basic necessities and imports luxury stuff that they can easily do without, or get elsewhere. I think Russian gas is still flowing to Germany, I don't think it ever stopped. It might stop though, if the Germans can't pay for it, so they will be still performing financial transactions, whatever the headlines say. 

[StringJunky]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

I'd like to know how a US president vetoes projects occurring outside of its borders.

Threat of sanctions on associated upstream suppliers seems to be the US MO when they don't like something, it seems to me.

29 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Yes.  I think some countries decision to join in the sanctions was partly driven by their fears of China and the desire to show Xi what China could face if it moves on Taiwan or other Asian nations.  Or Australia.  

Disagree with your Biden comments, however.  He has done a good job bringing the allies together on strong sanctions.  His work isn't flashy or dramatic, but it's quite competent.  

 

Yes, his administrations actions come across as quite measured. He's obviously a team player, unlike Trump.

Edited March 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[TheVat]

10 minutes ago, mistermack said:

How do you know that? Elections before the coup were pretty evenly balanced. Election after the coup a landslide? That's Ukranian democracy for you. 

 

 

I don't get my news from Russian agitprop sites like Southfront.  I go with independent organizations that don't answer to shareholders or corporate bosses, like Guardian or AP.  In 2014, all independent polling organizations showed Poroshenko with a massive lead.  Suggesting the revolution was quite popular.  And the landslide real.  And that Yanukovich had indeed, as investigations found, rigged his prior election by various means including voter intimidation.  

I realize it may be pointless, replying to a question coming from someone who thinks Zelenskyy is a giant vagina.  (A vagina who also won by a landslide)

 

Posted later:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/russia-ukraine-conflict-top-10-war-myths-newsguard

Some of the myths (including the supposed CIA managed coup) fact-checked.  

 

 

[mistermack]

5 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Suggesting the revolution was quite popular.  And the landslide real.

Suggesting is too strong a word. I said before all this kicked off that Ukranian politics is rotten to the core. On both sides. No polls or election results are worth anything in that country. But the spinning of the western media means that one set are derided, and the other are accepted. 

Nobody knows what an honest election would produce, they've never tried it. And probably never will now. 

[StringJunky]

27 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I realize it may be pointless, replying to a question coming from someone who thinks Zelenskyy is a giant vagina.  (A vagina who also won by a landslide)

The words of a 'giant vagina': "I need ammunition, not a ride".

[mistermack]

As far as Zelensky is concerned, I think the media adoration of him is pathetic. He's stupidly led his country into a disastrous war that they can't win. Bravery and stupidity have always overlapped, and he's right on the extreme edge of stupidity. 

If I'm in a bar, and a huge guy four times my size  at the next table tells me to move, while waving a huge gun in my face, I move. Even if he has no right to give me orders. Especially if I have all of my family with me. 

Zelensky is like the one idiot in a million, who would refuse, and end up getting his family killed. That's stupidity, not bravery. Bravery with other peoples' lives is not bravery at all in my book. When their lives depend on your decisions, it calls for intelligence and caring, not "bravery" and he has shown none.  

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, mistermack said:

As far as Zelensky is concerned, I think the media adoration of him is pathetic. He's stupidly led his country into a disastrous war that they can't win. Bravery and stupidity have always overlapped, and he's right on the extreme edge of stupidity. 

If I'm in a bar, and a huge guy four times my size  at the next table tells me to move, while waving a huge gun in my face, I move. Even if he has no right to give me orders. Especially if I have all of my family with me. 

Zelensky is like the one idiot in a million, who would refuse, and end up getting his family killed. That's stupidity, not bravery. Bravery with other peoples' lives is not bravery at all in my book. When their lives depend on your decisions, it calls for intelligence and caring, not "bravery" and he has shown none.  

You'd rather let the bullies win, to keep the peace.

[TheVat]

29 minutes ago, mistermack said:

As far as Zelensky is concerned, I think the media adoration of him is pathetic. He's stupidly led his country into a disastrous war that they can't win. Bravery and stupidity have always overlapped, and he's right on the extreme edge of stupidity. 

If I'm in a bar, and a huge guy four times my size  at the next table tells me to move, while waving a huge gun in my face, I move. Even if he has no right to give me orders. Especially if I have all of my family with me. 

Zelensky is like the one idiot in a million, who would refuse, and end up getting his family killed. That's stupidity, not bravery. Bravery with other peoples' lives is not bravery at all in my book. When their lives depend on your decisions, it calls for intelligence and caring, not "bravery" and he has shown none.  

Bad analogy.  Ukraine did nothing to attack Russia or promote war.  The Ukrainians want to be part of Europe and expressed that, as is their right as a sovereign nation.  If they want to join NATO, it's precisely because of Russian past conduct.  More like a guy on a barstool gesturing to his friends on the stools west of him, "I'm with these guys.  We want to be left alone and not give up our stools.  You don't get to take over the whole bar."  Zelensky didn't lead his people into war, he represents their wish to be a democracy with beneficial ties to European democracies.  If Vladdy doesn't like that westward lean, maybe he should have been more respectful towards Ukraine.  Bullying is not a good instrument of foreign relations.

 

 

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

48 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

The words of a 'giant vagina': "I need ammunition, not a ride".

No way am I going to click like for that...

...ahh...what the heck +1

[TheVat]

49 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

The words of a 'giant vagina': "I need ammunition, not a ride".

I posted a few days ago that that quote would be remembered for many years.  (that, and the Snake Island reply to Russian warships, heh heh)

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Bad analogy.  Ukraine did nothing to attack Russia or promote war.  The Ukrainians want to be part of Europe and expressed that, as is their right as a sovereign nation.  If they want to join NATO, it's precisely because of Russian past conduct.  More like a guy on a barstool gesturing to his friends on the stools west of him, "I'm with these guys.  We want to be left alone and not give up our stools.  You don't get to take over the whole bar."  Zelensky didn't lead his people into war, he represents their wish to be a democracy with beneficial ties to European democracies.  If Vladdy doesn't like that westward lean, maybe he should have been more respectful towards Ukraine.  Bullying is not a good instrument of foreign relations.

 

 

 

...and then of course he takes on the bully by himself while hearing words of encouragement toward himself and words of derision toward the bully. 

[mistermack]

10 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Bad analogy.  Ukraine did nothing to attack Russia or promote war.

It's a good analogy. I did nothing to disturb the guy in the bar. 

So I presume if YOU were the guy in the bar, you wouldn't move???

I don't believe that. 

When MacArthur saw the japs coming, he ran for it, shouting "I will return" over his shoulder. 

I'm not a fan, but at least he wasn't stupid. 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Suggesting is too strong a word. I said before all this kicked off that Ukranian politics is rotten to the core. On both sides. No polls or election results are worth anything in that country.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to lick the boots of bullies rather than take a stand, do you have any evidence to support this claim?

[swansont]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Threat of sanctions on associated upstream suppliers seems to be the US MO when they don't like something, it seems to me.

Do you have evidence of this for the pipeline?

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

Really, I thought it was just silly spin.

Is that your excuse for not providing support for your claims? Because if you don't provide it, then one can think that your post was just silly spin.

[Arete]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

It's a good analogy. I did nothing to disturb the guy in the bar. 

Well, if it were giving up a stool in a bar, there is virtually no cost beyond minor inconvenience and perceived loss of status. Given the cost of engaging the bully over something that has little value to me, I wouldn't consider it. 

On the other hand, if he barges through the front door of my house, declares that he's moving in and taking the master bedroom before smashing all the dishes and overturning the furniture, I might be a little more inclined to call the police/my friends and neighbors for help. If they sent me a Glock, a box of 9mm rounds and their thoughts and prayers in response, I'd probably be inclined to take matters into my own hands. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Arete

[StringJunky]

47 minutes ago, swansont said:

Do you have evidence of this for the pipeline?

Is that your excuse for not providing support for your claims? Because if you don't provide it, then one can think that your post was just silly spin.

Not directly, I'd have to find the AP article, but the sense I got off Biden's tone was that Nordstream wasn't going to happen.