War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[Moontanman]

18 hours ago, mistermack said:

Churchill was a lying windbag. What would you do, if a tiger had your head in it's mouth?

Um...die?

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

 

Lithuania started that ball rolling on Saturday by stopping Russian gas imports. If we do, we are going to feel the impact even more at home. 

UK doesn't have much dependence on Russian gas or oil. You'd probably feel the effects of the World market from a broader boycott than the effect of stopping imports yourself.

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 4/2/2022 at 7:46 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

It will be interesting to see how PM Viktor "Viktator" Orban does in the Hungarian Election tomorrow against a coalition of parties trying to oust him. He is considered the closest to Putin of all Nato and European Union leaders, and Hungary has done the least to support Ukraine's war efforts. (They have taken in a lot of refugees)

"Orbán has said Hungary will not send weapons to Ukraine, or allow shipments from other countries to transit through its territory. 

While analysts say his stance has left him more isolated from Western leaders, including some of the country's strongest allies like Poland and the Czech Republic, the war has allowed him to craft a campaign message for his domestic audience. "

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hungary-orban-election-putin-1.6405998

He claims he's the only one that will keep them out of the war and his opposition says he's the choice for Russia and they for Europe.

Looks like the Viktator has won yet again, thanks at least in part to the degree he has control of the media.

I wonder if he'd won if the essence of his victory speech was forefront on his campaign trail? (maybe it was, I don't really know, but this seems more like leaning toward Putin than Europe...the very thing claimed by his opponents)

“We have such a victory it can be seen from the moon, but it’s sure that it can be seen from Brussels,” Orban said in his speech on Sunday night, making light of his government’s long-running tensions with EU leaders.

“We will remember this victory until the end of our lives because we had to fight against a huge amount of opponents,” Orban said, citing a number of his political enemies including the Hungarian left, “bureaucrats” in Brussels, the international media, “and the Ukrainian president too – we never had so many opponents at the same time.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarians-vote-orbans-12-year-rule-tight-ballot-overshadowed-by-ukraine-war-2022-04-03/

I guess he wants Russian gas.

Edited April 3, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[MSC]

59 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

guess he wants Russian gas.

I thought he was already sniffing up all of Putins farts as they came?

6 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Lithuania started that ball rolling on Saturday by stopping Russian gas imports. If we do, we are going to feel the impact even more at home. 

We are already feeling some of the impact now. Gas prices have shot up where we are and probably will some more. We are still comparatively better off than Russia and especially the Ukraine. I'm willing to bare the cost, if Russians feel it tenfold and it gives more light to Ukraine at the end of the tunnel. I'd pay 1000% more if I knew it would save and spare Ukrainians from their current waking nightmare. Especially their children. As a parent; I can't even imagine what people are going through there. That alone scares me. 

It's Ukraine today, but where tomorrow? The Berlin wall keeps moving. How long before Putin decides to try his luck at pushing another front? His troops are already doing war games now on the islands of North Japan, engaging in maneuvers training in beach defense. 

One thing I also fear, is what China may be planning. If I was president Xi, at least a small part of me would be wondering whether or not making moves on Taiwan, could be done with less media attention if it runs concurrently with Putins invasion of Ukraine?

Btw I've had a few drinks tonight, so I apologize if I sound more dramatic than usual 😆 

[J.C.MacSwell]

46 minutes ago, MSC said:

I thought he was already sniffing up all of Putins farts as they came?

No ifs, ands or butts about it.

[geordief]

33 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

No ifs, ands or butts about it.

Sniffs?

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, TheVat said:

Yes, plus one.  I have said elsewhere that Russia is a nation of chess players, and I think that's never more apparent than when their armed forces are afflicted with internal problems, desertions, demoralization, and flawed chains of command.  When your army sucks, go for psychological manipulation and terror.   So when your Kyiv forces have to withdraw north to regroup, resupply, and get their shit together, leave corpses in your wake, both to provoke allies and to sow terror in the populace for when you come back.  

Russia isn't committing war crimes, more like they are committed to war crimes as their MO.  It all is, as many here have noted, so breathtakingly counterproductive -- how can they now not expect any nation nearby not to pound on NATO's door?   Do they really think they can sell the whole "fake news" nonsense?

Seems more like a game of "Risk" to me, where the numbers matter more than the strategy...

[swansont]

20 hours ago, TheVat said:

Russia isn't committing war crimes, more like they are committed to war crimes as their MO.  It all is, as many here have noted, so breathtakingly counterproductive -- how can they now not expect any nation nearby not to pound on NATO's door?   Do they really think they can sell the whole "fake news" nonsense?

It's not like it's the first time they've done this.

We had war crimes trials after WWII, but that involved countries that surrendered and were not in a position to obstruct such proceedings. I think Putin isn't afraid of being held accountable, partly because he probably doesn't think he's done anything wrong and partly because he thinks he's beyond reach.

 

[MSC]

11 hours ago, swansont said:

It's not like it's the first time they've done this.

We had war crimes trials after WWII, but that involved countries that surrendered and were not in a position to obstruct such proceedings. I think Putin isn't afraid of being held accountable, partly because he probably doesn't think he's done anything wrong and partly because he thinks he's beyond reach.

 

He does fear the Russian people holding him accountable. Most of what he does, the cries of "fake news" from "western media", are less for convincing the international community, and more for convincing Russians within Russia. 

It's a pity that at 69 he looks so healthy. I'm currently holding faith in the fact that nobody is out of reach of the tragedies of nature... if either the Russian people or a health problem could just make him disappear or hand him over to the ICC that would be great. Another Dicktator bites the dust. (I MISPELLED NOTHING! 😆) 

[swansont]

10 hours ago, MSC said:

He does fear the Russian people holding him accountable. Most of what he does, the cries of "fake news" from "western media", are less for convincing the international community, and more for convincing Russians within Russia. 

I don't know that the Russian people see much of what is fed to us, but they do see propaganda from state media, so there are undoubtedly large groups that support him.

I don't think he fears a revolt, I think he fears a coup initiated by the oligarchs.

 

10 hours ago, MSC said:

It's a pity that at 69 he looks so healthy. I'm currently holding faith in the fact that nobody is out of reach of the tragedies of nature... if either the Russian people or a health problem could just make him disappear or hand him over to the ICC that would be great. Another Dicktator bites the dust. (I MISPELLED NOTHING! 😆) 

"Nothing" is spelled correctly

[TheVat]

After Bucha, I'm thinking it's time to stop confiscating oligarch superyachts and start moving them to deep water, drain all engine fluids, and then sink them.  If any oligarchs then whine about international law, reply "look who's talking."

 

[geordief]

Russian State TV apparently

 

(have posted this  elsewhere, but I think  it deserves sharing)

[mistermack]

4 minutes ago, TheVat said:

After Bucha, I'm thinking it's time to stop confiscating oligarch superyachts and start moving them to deep water, drain all engine fluids, and then sink them.  If any oligarchs then whine about international law, reply "look who's talking."

And Americans. Blow them up, for Hiroshima. And Germans. Starve them to death for Auschwitz. And the Irish. Blast them, for Mountbatten. And kill all the whites in South Africa. And the Welsh. For being Welsh. Makes a lot of sense.

[Sensei]

9 minutes ago, TheVat said:

After Bucha, I'm thinking it's time to stop confiscating oligarch superyachts and start moving them to deep water, drain all engine fluids, and then sink them.  If any oligarchs then whine about international law, reply "look who's talking."

...you skipped one essential step: asking them what they think of Russia's attack on Ukraine, i.e., whether they personally support mass murder, or they reject the "official propaganda"...

Some countries, stores, businessmen have already started to do this on their own, i.e. Russians who want to make deals with them have to sign documents condemning the aggression of the V.P. and the Russian army against Ukraine..

It should be extended to all Russians who want to visit the EU, US or any other Western country..

 

[Genady]

15 minutes ago, geordief said:

Russian State TV apparently

 

(have posted this  elsewhere, but I think  it deserves sharing)

It is back to the same what I've left 43 years ago.

[MSC]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

don't know that the Russian people see much of what is fed to us, but they do see propaganda from state media, so there are undoubtedly large groups that support him.

I don't think he fears a revolt, I think he fears a coup initiated by the oligarchs.

He probably fears both, but the latter more, so you're mostly correct. Although since the state started trying to crack down on foreign and independent news sources, downloads of VPNs in Russia have increased dramatically and Russians living outside of Russia are attempting to keep another information back channel with friends and relatives back home. 

As it stands; Russian resistance to Putins Regime is something it is difficult for us outside of Russia to get reliable information about, since the state will want to not only crush said resistance, but pretend like it doesn't exist as well. Outside of Russia we have heard about protests and mass arrests, but what are we not hearing about? How many figures in authority have spoken out and disappeared? Have their been violent protests? Are their any regional governments who are at odds with the Kremlin over this? Etc. There is probably a lot more going on than it is possible for us to hear about at this moment in time. They are attempting to rebuild the iron curtain. Putin, as a dictator, will be actively setting into motion the implementation of further isolating Russians from the rest of the world. 

Putin is already starting to mistrust the military and his advisors, while his growing paranoia will present and express itself far differently to say someone like Donald Trump, it is still growing paranoia. It's kind of like a bad guy paranoia feedback loop. You do some fucked up shit, you get more paranoid about being held accountable for that fucked up shit, so you do some more fucked up shit to try to avoid accountability but then just end up even more paranoid and the process repeats itself over and over until a breaking point is reached and you've done so much fucked up shit to everyone that you can no longer trust that a single person won't want some form of revenge or satisfaction from you. 

10 minutes ago, Genady said:

It is back to the same what I've left 43 years ago.

Oooooh. Attacking the credibility of members of the military... dumb move. That will come back to bite them in the ass I bet.

26 minutes ago, mistermack said:

And Americans. Blow them up, for Hiroshima. And Germans. Starve them to death for Auschwitz. And the Irish. Blast them, for Mountbatten. And kill all the whites in South Africa. And the Welsh. For being Welsh. Makes a lot of sense.

Not a good comparison. Economic sanctions and confiscation of goods and property are completely different from killing these people. I support the former, not the latter. My support of the former does not suggest or imply that I would support the latter.

[StringJunky]

29 minutes ago, Sensei said:

...you skipped one essential step: asking them what they think of Russia's attack on Ukraine, i.e., whether they personally support mass murder, or they reject the "official propaganda"...

Some countries, stores, businessmen have already started to do this on their own, i.e. Russians who want to make deals with them have to sign documents condemning the aggression of the V.P. and the Russian army against Ukraine..

It should be extended to all Russians who want to visit the EU, US or any other Western country..

 

But what if they are stuck in a government-mandated  information bubble, as geordief's video shows. How can they honestly condemn something they are oblivious to?

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

I'm thinking it's time to stop confiscating oligarch superyachts and start moving them to deep water, drain all engine fluids, and then sink them. 

Not really original though. Confiscate the property of people if you don't like their religion or politics? Hitler thought of that years ago. But why waste them by sinking them? Hand them out as favours, to party cronies. 

[MSC]

6 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Not really original though. Confiscate the property of people if you don't like their religion or politics?

Economic warfare in retaliation to documentable war crimes is a strategy with far fewer casualties of war than military action. This isn't Caesar killing a rich Roman and taking their money, this is more like catching Walter white by targeting his money. 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

And Americans. Blow them up, for Hiroshima. And Germans. Starve them to death for Auschwitz. And the Irish. Blast them, for Mountbatten. And kill all the whites in South Africa. And the Welsh. For being Welsh. Makes a lot of sense.

Just want to alert you to someone hacking your account and posting analogies so awful a five year old could see through them.  Hope you can fix this breach soon!  Good luck!

[MSC]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

think you meant to post this in a different thead

Tbh I think I need to change the more recent socioeconomic class thread to be a little less specific. 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

It's always the poor what gets the gravy, and the rich what gets the blame ! 

What makes you believe this? This is quite hyperbolic. Always the poor? The poor are quantifiably more often on the short end of the stick by virtue of population density alone. The richest people in the world could probably all fit into a decent sized theater or sports venue while the poor of the world living in one country would be overcrowded. 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Yeh, but it's one law for the rich, and another for the poor. 

High level tax, financial and business crimes are more likely to be committed by the people that have the assets to engage in them. It is one law for everybody, but there are crimes which certain demographics are more likely to commit. There are some crimes you can literally only commit if you have a lot of money or are in a position of authority like law enforcement, trust fund managers, government, military, law, ceo etc etc. 

 

[CharonY]

9 minutes ago, MSC said:

High level tax, financial and business crimes are more likely to be committed by the people that have the assets to engage in them. It is one law for everybody, but there are crimes which certain demographics are more likely to commit. There are some crimes you can literally only commit if you have a lot of money or are in a position of authority like law enforcement, trust fund managers, government, military, law, ceo etc etc. 

And then you should look at the punishments meted out by crimes more commonly conducted by poor vs those by the rich. Consider how much impact, say, the punishment for a parking ticket has for a poor person vs a rich. Also consider who is more likely to influence laws and punishment levels. 

One concrete example to think about: the opioid crisis was driven largely by the Sackler family and other groups heavily pushing oxycontin to a large extent by providing false information on its safety and potential for addiction and abuse. Then there are folks who sold the drug to others illegally. 

Guess who is more likely to get jail time.

[mistermack]

Just posting this link again where it's relevant. 

She gives a balanced view of the Ukraine events, and NATO expansion, something people in the west will not be used to, being constantly fed nothing but spin and propeganda. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU   

45 minutes ago, MSC said:

What makes you believe this? This is quite hyperbolic.

No, it's ironic.

[StringJunky]

29 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Just posting this link again where it's relevant. 

She gives a balanced view of the Ukraine events, and NATO expansion, something people in the west will not be used to, being constantly fed nothing but spin and propeganda. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU   

No, it's ironic.

The USSR collapses, you expect its ex-satellite countries not to exercise autonomy who they collaborate with, regardless of whatever the US told Gorbachev? 

Edited April 5, 2022 by StringJunky

[MSC]

26 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Just posting this link again where it's relevant. 

She gives a balanced view of the Ukraine events, and NATO expansion, something people in the west will not be used to, being constantly fed nothing but spin and propeganda. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU   

No, it's ironic.

Then it's a poor execution of irony. 

Her view is hardly balanced when even at the very start, she states there are solid claims against Russia and that their invasion of the Ukriane should not be tolerated. The rest she states as a reminder to consider and review the history before assigning 100% blame. I haven't seen anyone here disagree with the notion that NATO played its part in escalating tensions. So stop accusing all of having listened to propaganda. You don't know what news sources I use so don't assume to know.