War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[Sensei]

@MSC

My post was not directed at you..

24 minutes ago, MSC said:

Maybe someone should just start a war crime specific thread.

..."funny" thing ... you reminded me that the people who were tortured and raped at Guantanamo by the US military are now... in the government of Afghanistan...

(after rethought, not funny...)

 

(now, do you see the picture? V.P. says, you (US) did this, so I can do the same etc. etc.)

An "auction" is being held as to who made the worst possible abominations..

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Sensei

[MSC]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

It's as if my town is currently flooding during a massive hurricane, we're trying to evacuate my family and prevent my children from drowning, but instead of talking about sending boats and helicopters and life vests, you're choosing to discuss the implementation of new nuclear power plants 15 years down the line to mitigate climate change.

I'm not saying don't send boats, helicopters and life vests. I'm also not saying nuclear power plants. Those take ages, to build and are very high maintenance. I was thinking more along the lines of Wind, Solar and Hydro. 

Don't worry, I'm not the sort of person who believes problems have just one solution. When it comes to climate change and other big issues, I lean toward a maximalist, multi-tiered approach of doing everything possible, that is effective, at once by building the right teams for the jobs. 

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

now, do you see the picture? V.P. says, you (US) did this, so I can do the same etc. etc.)

I'm not American FYI. 

I don't care if Putin says he can do this because the US did the same. The main point there is the US did that. Not Ukraine. If the Russians want to have more Americans pay for war crimes, it can supply evidence to the ICC just like everyone else. 

"But your honor, people have committed murder before, so I ought to be allowed to escape punishment when I murder because you haven't caught all the other murderers yet!" - this about sums up how Putins and your argument sounds to me. In any criminal court, someone else's past crimes are not viewed as justification for you to commit crimes. Especially years after the fact. In fact, to clearly describe what your motivation was, actually just helps prosecute you. If you say; I murdered X because X did y, that's an admission of guilt. I mean, if you are factual and have evidence that corroborates your motive, all that would lead to, is you and the person who committed the motivating crime; both go to jail. They'll just have a separate trial to you, if you convince the prosecution to go after them next. 

And yes; you may not have been addressing me, but this is an open discussion and you or I can interject on anyone's points at any time. 

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

An "auction" is being held as to who made the worst possible abominations..

No it isn't...

[MigL]

Russians have now stated that if Finland tries to join NATO there could be 'dire' consequences.
Gee whiz!
What could possibly make them want to join NATO ?

[CharonY]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

Russians have now stated that if Finland tries to join NATO there could be 'dire' consequences.
Gee whiz!
What could possibly make them want to join NATO ?

Clearly Russia has no other choice but to attack before it happens. If not, it may increase their ability to fend off a Russian invasion.

[MSC]

27 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Clearly Russia has no other choice but to attack before it happens. If not, it may increase their ability to fend off a Russian invasion.

Yet if Russia made no indication of wanting to attack, Finland wouldn't feel a need to join NATO. Now there is an irony 😆 idiot of the year award is going to Putin. 

39 minutes ago, MigL said:

Russians have now stated that if Finland tries to join NATO there could be 'dire' consequences.
Gee whiz!
What could possibly make them want to join NATO ?

And so the Berlin wall keeps moving.. man I predicted this to a friend, now realizing I should have put money on it. 

[mistermack]

5 hours ago, MigL said:

Russians have now stated that if Finland tries to join NATO there could be 'dire' consequences.
Gee whiz!
What could possibly make them want to join NATO ?

I thought that they said that a couple of weeks ago. It's really just stating the obvious. If Finland tries to join NATO, they will instantly have several nuclear warheads pointing their way, with Helsinki on the address label. As every NATO member already has. So everone in Helsinki will enjoy the privilege of being minutes away from being vaporized. That's the real security blanket that NATO provides.

I personally live ten miles away from the UK Government Communications HQ. A dead cert for one of the first nukes. It gives me a warm feeling. Hopefully, that's as warm as it will get. 

If I was in Putin's shoes, I would just announce that Russia would not recognise any new members of NATO, and would treat them as non-members in any dispute. That would make things a little more tricky for NATO's enlargement ambitions, raising the stakes in the game of chicken. 

[iNow]

20 minutes ago, mistermack said:

If I was in Putin's shoes, I would just announce that Russia would not recognise any new members of NATO, and would treat them as non-members in any dispute

He can announce whatever silly damned thing he wants, but as soon as he attempts to move against a NATO ally or enter NATO territory, the NATO members would respond together in retaliation.

Strength comes in numbers, not hollow words. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by iNow

[SergUpstart]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Russians have now stated that if Finland tries to join NATO there could be 'dire' consequences.
Gee whiz!
What could possibly make them want to join NATO ?

Russia needs to create a military alliance with China, similar to NATO.

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

Russia needs to create a military alliance with China, similar to NATO.

I'm not sure that is in the best interest of China. China seems pretty uncomfortable just remaining neutral wrt to Ukraine. Having a military partner that gets involved in a lot of military conflicts seems outside China's economic goals.

[StringJunky]

7 hours ago, zapatos said:

I'm not sure that is in the best interest of China. China seems pretty uncomfortable just remaining neutral wrt to Ukraine. Having a military partner that gets involved in a lot of military conflicts seems outside China's economic goals.

China prefers to just sneak up on borders and pinch little bits of land at a time rather than all out conflict.

Edited April 8, 2022 by StringJunky

[SergUpstart]

Here is yesterday's photo of the station in Kramatorsk

The civilian population is leaving the city in anticipation of the offensive of Russian troops. For the Kiev regime, they are traitors, because they do not want to be a human shield for the armed forces of Ukraine.

Today, the railway station in Kramatorsk was hit by a tochka-U missile. About 40 people were killed and several dozen injured.

Here is the tail section of the Dot-U rocket. It was removed from the armament of the missile forces of the Russian Federation as obsolete. Ukraine has about ten such missiles.

The location of the shadow in this photo indicates that the rocket was flying from west to east. The tail part of the rocket fell to the west than the head part. The tail part of the rocket always falls behind the head, rocket specialists know this.

[Genady]

12 minutes ago, SergUpstart said:

Here is yesterday's photo of the station in Kramatorsk

The civilian population is leaving the city in anticipation of the offensive of Russian troops. For the Kiev regime, they are traitors, because they do not want to be a human shield for the armed forces of Ukraine.

Today, the railway station in Kramatorsk was hit by a tochka-U missile. About 40 people were killed and several dozen injured.

Here is the tail section of the Dot-U rocket. It was removed from the armament of the missile forces of the Russian Federation as obsolete. Ukraine has about ten such missiles.

The location of the shadow in this photo indicates that the rocket was flying from west to east. The tail part of the rocket fell to the west than the head part. The tail part of the rocket always falls behind the head, rocket specialists know this.

"For the Kiev regime, they are traitors, because they do not want to be a human shield for the armed forces of Ukraine." This is a lie. It's already several days Ukraine government urges people in the east to run for their lives. 

They specifically say, evacuate now!

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, SergUpstart said:

Here is yesterday's photo of the station in Kramatorsk

The civilian population is leaving the city in anticipation of the offensive of Russian troops. For the Kiev regime, they are traitors, because they do not want to be a human shield for the armed forces of Ukraine.

Today, the railway station in Kramatorsk was hit by a tochka-U missile. About 40 people were killed and several dozen injured.

Here is the tail section of the Dot-U rocket. It was removed from the armament of the missile forces of the Russian Federation as obsolete. Ukraine has about ten such missiles.

The location of the shadow in this photo indicates that the rocket was flying from west to east. The tail part of the rocket fell to the west than the head part. The tail part of the rocket always falls behind the head, rocket specialists know this.

You need to diversify your reading sources, as that's straight out of the Kremlin songbook. 

[MSC]

3 hours ago, SergUpstart said:

The location of the shadow in this photo indicates that the rocket was flying from west to east. The tail part of the rocket fell to the west than the head part. The tail part of the rocket always falls behind the head, rocket specialists know this.

It would have been better if there was video footage. Does this photo have a time stamp? There are a few things wrong with your reasoning here. I'm not an expert on Rockets, but I know reasonable doubt when I see it. The shadows direction is based on the time of day. There does not seem to be enough floor trauma for me to believe a big heavy piece of ballistics material landed there. The damage on the right side of the ground looks more like what would happen when it is rolled and the wing digs into the ground. So I very much doubt that this is the spot that it first landed in. It could have come from a number of different angles with different degrees of spin. It could have been placed there by somebody just taking a photo with zero intention of it being used to make false flag claims because it needed to be moved out of the way from a different area. 

So my conclusion; it is impossible to be reasonably certain as to where this missile came from based on its positioning in this photo. 

3 hours ago, SergUpstart said:

The civilian population is leaving the city in anticipation of the offensive of Russian troops. For the Kiev regime, they are traitors, because they do not want to be a human shield for the armed forces of Ukraine.

Actually, a fair number of the people currently leaving the Ukraine, intend on coming back with supplies. My wife works in immigration law and has filed short stay request for a number of Ukrainians. One woman; is about to return home and is bringing a shipment of body Armour. It's quite badass imo. 😎 

The only claims I've heard of people using human shields, are Russians using them. Don't know how accurate those claims are. But trying to use your own civilians as human shields against your invader would be a stupid idea. They aren't Russian citizens. It is far more likely that Ukrainian citizens used as human shields, would be far more likely to be used effectively against Ukrainian soldiers. They are the ones with more emotional impetuous to stay their hand to save their own civilians, whom they are sworn to defend. 

[iNow]

It sure sounds like Serge's "Upstart" is a small business trying to gain notice from the Russian cyber disinformation army and their oligarchic funders. Propaganda for profit, as it were. 

[MSC]

11 minutes ago, iNow said:

It sure sounds like Serge's "Upstart" is a small business trying to gain notice from the Russian cyber disinformation army and their oligarchic funders. Propaganda for profit, as it were. 

Or sockpuppet of a banned user

[SergUpstart]

4 hours ago, Genady said:

They specifically say, evacuate now!

Pro-Russian YouTube bloggers from Ukraine Yuriy Podolyaka and Mikhail Onufrienko have already addressed the residents of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk who want to help the Russian army a week ago with the words "the best thing you can do to help the Russian army is to leave the city urgently"

[MigL]

I would think the refugees from the Ukraine know very well who is committing the atrocities. A lot of them are feeing to Poland, and a forum member who I trust and respect, and who has had contact with the refugees, doesn't seem too impressed with the behaviour of the Russians.

There is a very simple way to stop any atrocities committed by Russians, and Ukrainians, Serge.
Get Russian forces the hell out of the sovereign country of the Ukraine.

[Genady]

1 hour ago, SergUpstart said:

Pro-Russian YouTube bloggers from Ukraine Yuriy Podolyaka and Mikhail Onufrienko have already addressed the residents of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk who want to help the Russian army a week ago with the words "the best thing you can do to help the Russian army is to leave the city urgently"

The government of Ukraine tells civilians in the east and the south to evacuate immediately. Not to help Russian army, but to save their lives.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, SergUpstart said:

Pro-Russian YouTube bloggers from Ukraine Yuriy Podolyaka and Mikhail Onufrienko have already addressed the residents of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk who want to help the Russian army a week ago with the words "the best thing you can do to help the Russian army is to leave the city urgently"

Yes, the oppressors would prefer it if their victims would just shoot themselves, too, to save money. How much does being a disinformant pay?

[StringJunky]

@SergUpstart Have you omitted to mention that this missile has "For the children" painted in Russian on the side? I'm sure the Ukrainians put that on. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by StringJunky

[swansont]

7 hours ago, SergUpstart said:

For the Kiev regime, they are traitors, because they do not want to be a human shield for the armed forces of Ukraine.

Any credible evidence to support this? 

[beecee]

I'm rather curious as to why the sanctions on Russia, have been piecemeal type of actions. I am of the opinion that this invasion of another country, was serious enough to go in with all guns blazing, as far as sanctions go. I see it as obviously the piecemeal implementions of sanctions was not going to shift Putin one iota. Isolate the country fully without comprimise, as Putin has Invaded Ukraine  without comprimise. Perhaps creating such difficulties for normal Russian citizens, all at once, may prompt someone to do what I believe is needed to end this war....expel them from the UN security council...expel them from the UN...

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-03-20/ukraine-war-how-the-un-can-expel-russia-and-remain-relevant

How the UN Can Expel Russia and Remain Relevant

Russia’s seat on the United Nations Security Council is a travesty. But that’s something freedom-loving nations can change if they are determined. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/09/24/piecemeal-sanctions-wont-deter-russia/?sh=64c9216a6fb6

https://graphics.reuters.com/UKRAINE-CRISIS/SANCTIONS/byvrjenzmve/

https://voxeu.org/article/sanctions-against-russian-war-ukraine-could-be-made-work

 

Sanctions against the Russian war on Ukraine could be made to work

Peter A.G. van Bergeijk 28 March 2022

The sanctions against Russian have been described as “unprecedented”. This column argues that this is not the case, and neither is the current sanctions packet sufficient to realistically expect that they will work, as sanctions against military adventures have a significantly lower probability of success. The weak 2014 sanctions against Russia’s annexation of the Crimea reduced the credibility of broad-based EU sanctions and or the threat of scaling up targeted sanctions. The West could do better by including an embargo on capital goods and a boycott of Russian energy.

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All this pussy footing around with piece meal sanctions, while hundreds are being slaughtered. 

[zapatos]

My understanding is that the sanctions were not meant to prevent Putin from invading or to get him to "shift one iota". Instead, they are intended to choke off Putin's ability to wage war by eliminating access to technology and funds, and to prompt the Russian population to oppose his actions.

One of the reasons to add sanctions piecemeal instead of all at once is psychological. You are showing Putin and the Russian people that no matter how bad things are, they can continue to get worse.

[iNow]

4 hours ago, SergUpstart said:

Pro-Russian YouTube bloggers from Ukraine Yuriy Podolyaka and Mikhail Onufrienko have already addressed the residents of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk who want to help the Russian army a week ago with the words "the best thing you can do to help the Russian army is to leave the city urgently"

Is that why Russia with a targeted ballistic missile strike blew up a train station full of innocent women and children trying to flee today? There were 4,000 people on that platform.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/russia-denies-responsibility-for-missile-that-killed-dozens-of-ukrainians-at-train-station

Quote

A missile hit a train station where thousands of Ukrainians had gathered Friday, killing at least 50 and wounding dozens more in an attack on a crowd of mostly women and children trying to flee a new, looming Russian offensive in the country's east, Ukrainian authorities said.

The attack that some denounced as yet another war crime in the 6-week-old conflict came as workers unearthed bodies from a mass grave in Bucha, a town near Ukraine's capital where dozens of killings have already been documented following a Russian pullout.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by iNow