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War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?


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Posted

My impression of Qin, from the quotes of him in that article, is that he's made a rookie error in how to talk to the west.  His phrase in describing Uighurs and those with "inappropriate thoughts," seemed poorly chosen.  Does he realize he's talking to a nation which holds free thought (and personal sovereignty over one's thoughts) to be sacrosanct?  That phrase made my blood run a little colder.  

Posted
25 minutes ago, TheVat said:

That phrase made my blood run a little colder.  

Xi Jinping's speech stating any country trying to influence it would "crack their heads and spill blood", was widely reported in Western media as being a threat of violence. The actual words, from an ancient saying (chengyu), are 頭破血流 or 'Tóu pò xiě liú' -  literally 'head break blood flow'. Sounds like a reasonable interpretation unless you understand the chengyu. Running into a brick wall or bashing one's head against a wall would be a closer interpretation - the saying explicitly refers to the futility of your actions - it's not the walls fault you ran into it. It's very clearly (to Chinese speakers) not a threat of aggression.

Could he have picked more diplomatic words? Maybe, but he was talking to Chinese people in Chinese using a common proverb that is at several centuries years old. Communication is a two way process: the West should also make an effort rather than jump to worst interpretations.

Posted

I tend to agree with TheVat.
Nobody ever seems to 'call out' Chinese officials, and their comments, for fear of 'offending' them.

This guy just warned the US that there will be a military conflict, if, the US gets involved in China's military conflict to retake Taiwan.
Well, then don't start one.

 

Posted
9 minutes ago, MigL said:

Nobody ever seems to 'call out' Chinese officials, and their comments, for fear of 'offending' them.

That's a Western problem not a Chinese one - mostly, i imagine, because we care about Chinese money coming our way. I'm all for calling out China, just call them out for things they said, not that we imagined. Granted i've not looked into this 'inappropriate thought' comment, but my first thought would be to check it's not a simple mistranslation - as was the case for the crack their heads and spill blood comment.

Posted
Quote

WASHINGTON, Jan 28 (Reuters) - Russia's military buildup near Ukraine has expanded to include supplies of blood along with other medical materials that would allow it to treat casualties, in yet another key indicator of Moscow's military readiness, three U.S. officials tell Reuters.

Current and former U.S. officials say concrete indicators -- like blood supplies -- are critical in determining whether Moscow would be prepared to carry out an invasion, if Russian President Vladimir Putin decided to do so.

The disclosure of the blood supplies by U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, adds another piece of context to growing U.S. warnings that Russia could be preparing for a new invasion of Ukraine as it masses more than 100,000 troops near its borders. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russia-moves-blood-supplies-near-ukraine-adding-us-concern-officials-2022-01-28/

 

Posted
1 hour ago, Prometheus said:

Xi Jinping's speech stating any country trying to influence it would "crack their heads and spill blood", was widely reported in Western media as being a threat of violence. The actual words, from an ancient saying (chengyu), are 頭破血流 or 'Tóu pò xiě liú' -  literally 'head break blood flow'. Sounds like a reasonable interpretation unless you understand the chengyu. Running into a brick wall or bashing one's head against a wall would be a closer interpretation - the saying explicitly refers to the futility of your actions - it's not the walls fault you ran into it. It's very clearly (to Chinese speakers) not a threat of aggression.

Could he have picked more diplomatic words? Maybe, but he was talking to Chinese people in Chinese using a common proverb that is at several centuries years old. Communication is a two way process: the West should also make an effort rather than jump to worst interpretations.

While your example of poor translation is relevant, I should note that the quote I was referring to was when the Chinese ambassador to the  USA (Qin) told an NPR correspondent that the Uighurs suffered from "inappropriate thoughts."  I am sorry if my post did not make that clear.  IIRC, China's ambassador to the USA speaks English fluently and is apt to choose his words with some care when addressing such hot button issues.  (otherwise, one wonders why he was picked for the job) 

Perhaps he was the victim of the same company that sold John Cleese a criminally inaccurate Hungarian to English phrasebook, in that famous Monty Python sketch.  If he starts telling us that his hovercraft is full of eels, then we will know.

Posted (edited)

The deputy of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, Ilya Kiva, called a possible Russian attack a liberation.

China and Russia have united against NASA: they are building their base on the moon. If NASA's Lunar Gateway orbits only around the Moon, then ILRS will have both an orbiter and a base on the surface, as well as several lunar rovers. Russia and China intend to complete the construction of the basic infrastructure for ILRS by 2035, Beijing said, the Daily Mail writes.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10452643/China-confirms-joining-Russia-build-moon-base-2035.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailus

 

Edited by SergUpstart
Posted

CNN: The US is outraged that Ukraine downplays the threat of a possible "Russian invasion"

 

Some officials of the American administration believe that in Ukraine, the support provided by the United States is met "without much gratitude."
News.ru
In turn, the Ukrainian authorities believe that Washington is "overreacting" to the current situation, "sowing panic and bringing disorder to the economy" of Ukraine, while refusing to impose preventive sanctions against Russia.
Lenta.ru

Posted
14 hours ago, TheVat said:

Uighurs suffered from "inappropriate thoughts."  I am sorry if my post did not make that clear.  IIRC, China's ambassador to the USA speaks English fluently and is apt to choose his words with some care when addressing such hot button issues.  (otherwise, one wonders why he was picked for the job) 

 

You'd hope so, but you'd think the same for UK foreign secretaries, but Boris Johnson managed to extend a UK journalist's sentence in an Iranian prison due to his typical bumbling, bungling style.

As for the the inappropriate thoughts - surprisingly hard to find the full, unedited transcript (do you know of one?), from what i could find he was explicitly referring to Islamist terrorists among the Uyghurs. From here:

Quote

He nonetheless asserted that some Uyghurs were terrorists. "The destination for them is prisons," he said, while asserting that others had inappropriate thoughts that they were being taught to change in "vocational schools."

Posted

That doesn't change the fact that 'thoughts', appropriate or not, are NOT a crime; only inapproriate actions are.

Posted
8 minutes ago, MigL said:

That doesn't change the fact that 'thoughts', appropriate or not, are NOT a crime; only inapproriate actions are.

True (assuming my interpretation correct - i've not seen the details), but it does bring the interpretation much closer to programmes that try to detect and change potential terrorists thinking to something less extreme, like the UK's Prevent programme.

Posted

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1076246311

(Excerpt from NPR's transcript, which is available from the top of the article Inow posted, NPR being a radio network.  At the right-hand side of the click-bar for the audio file, there are three dots, which clicked on will offer a text transcript)

INSKEEP: People inside told Rob they did not know when they would be released. They said they'd been sent to reform their thoughts. Here in Washington, Ambassador Qin described this as an opportunity for Uyghurs to change.

QIN: We give them a chance. We use a measure to correct them. It's a preventive measure.

INSKEEP: A preventive measure?

QIN: Preventive measure because...

INSKEEP: Preventing them from having terrorist thoughts before they have them?

QIN: Before they have them, you know? Those people - not every Uyghur was sent to the school, but when we found some people more or less influenced by extremist ideas. So before they are getting worse, we send them to the school, giving them educations of language, of law and vocational training so that when they finish, they can get a decent job.

INSKEEP: Is part of the goal assimilation?

QIN: The goal of this policy is to make the society stable and safe.

Posted
22 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

like the UK's Prevent programme.

I agree, we in the West havemade the same mistakes when dealing with 'terrorists'.
Implementing a 'thought police' is never a good idea.

Then again, Uyghurs are not sent for 're-education' because they are thinking of terrorist acts, but, simply for thinking 'differently'.

Posted

I think 'democracy' is on their "inappropriate thoughts" list as well. The takedown of the Tiannamen protest monuments are presently being removed in Hong Kong.

Posted
56 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

A funny thought: if we go to war with Russia, watch the toilet rolls fly off the shelves first before anything else. :)

 

panic buying.jpg

What's funny is, we think a war is worth fighting...

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

 

panic buying.jpg

What's funny is, we think a war is worth fighting...

So you are a pacifist ?

(So is Putin.He believes in pacifying entire populations,including  his own if necessary)

Edited by geordief
Posted

Someone should start a thread to try and figure out what Dimreepr considers worth fighting for.
Or even worth making an effort.
( certainly not lengthy responses on this forum 😄 )

Posted
2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

 

panic buying.jpg

What's funny is, we think a war is worth fighting...

People fight to preserve what they believe in. My grandfather, and likely many other war veterans would double facepalm your comment. Putin would welcome someone like you... makes his brand of autocratic rule easier to accomplish.

Posted
19 hours ago, MigL said:

Someone should start a thread to try and figure out what Dimreepr considers worth fighting for.
Or even worth making an effort.
( certainly not lengthy responses on this forum 😄 )

I think peace is worth fighting for...

18 hours ago, StringJunky said:

People fight to preserve what they believe in. My grandfather, and likely many other war veterans would double facepalm your comment. Putin would welcome someone like you... makes his brand of autocratic rule easier to accomplish.

Being a passivist wasn't an easy option for my grandfather, either...

How many war's do we have to see fail, before we consider another option?

Sure Putin might welcome this initially, but as Gandhi and Mandela have shown, there's few things more powerful than mutually assured peace.

Posted

Returning us now to the actual subject at hand...

US Senate is about to approve a package described as "the mother of all sanctions" and the UN Security Council has also reconfirmed it's opposition to Russian action (though, this last bit is somewhat toothless, especially given Russia has a seat on that council).

US pledges to put Russia on defensive at UN Security Council | AP News

Quote

On Sunday, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Sen. Bob Menendez, said that in the event of an attack, lawmakers want Russia to face “the mother of all sanctions.” That includes actions against Russian banks that could severely undermine the Russian economy and increased lethal aid to Ukraine’s military.

The sanctions under consideration would apparently be significantly stronger than those imposed after Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014. Those penalties have been seen as ineffective.

Menendez also raised the prospect of imposing some punishments preemptively, before any invasion.

“There are some sanctions that really could take place up front, because of what Russia’s already done — cyberattacks on Ukraine, false-flag operations, the efforts to undermine the Ukrainian government internally,” the New Jersey Democrat said on CNN.

The desire to hit Russia harder financially over its moves on Ukraine has been a rare area of bipartisan agreement in Congress.

 

The Senate bill would target major Russian banks and sovereign debt, and is apparently only an initial phase of sanctions (with more to follow later contingent on next steps from Russia).

Posted
31 minutes ago, iNow said:

Returning us now to the actual subject at hand...

US Senate is about to approve a package described as "the mother of all sanctions" and the UN Security Council has also reconfirmed it's opposition to Russian action (though, this last bit is somewhat toothless, especially given Russia has a seat on that council).

US pledges to put Russia on defensive at UN Security Council | AP News

 

The Senate bill would target major Russian banks and sovereign debt, and is apparently only an initial phase of sanctions (with more to follow later contingent on next steps from Russia).

Sorry if I'm being thick, but doesn't NK and Iran demonstrate the futility of such a "mother of all bombs"?

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