War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[TheVat]

8 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Before this war, loyalties in Ukraine were split about fifty fifty for Russian leaning or West leaning parties. Once the coup happened, this was never heard of again. 

 

DYHACFT?

😀

[mistermack]

34 minutes ago, TheVat said:

DYHACFT?

 It's hardly a state secret. If you have to ask, you clearly get your information from newspaper headlines. : "From the political perspective, one of the defining features of the politics of Ukraine is that for most of the time, it has been divided along two issues: the relation between Ukraine, the West and Russia, and the classical left-right divide.[154] The first two presidents, Kravchuk and Leonid Kuchma, tended to balance the competing visions of Ukraine,[155] though Yushchenko and Yanukovych were generally pro-Western and pro-Russian, respectively."   

Ukraine - Wikipedia 

[StringJunky]

50 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No male of fighting age is allowed to leave the country, and you would soon find yourself cannon fodder.

We wouldn't be allowed either. That's what happens in wars on your home territory. 

[mistermack]

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

We wouldn't be allowed either. That's what happens in wars on your home territory. 

You're the one who asked why there isn't an uprising to oust Zelensky. I'm just explaining it for you, why that would be pretty much impossible. Although I would have thought it was obvious.

Right at the beginning of this war I pointed out that Zelensky was a disaster for his country. He had the option to commit to not joining Nato, which would have meant no war. He would have been giving away nothing, because Ukraine is further than it ever was from becoming a member of NATO. 

So he's fought this war for nothing, he's lost about a fifth of the country so far, and at least tens of thousands have died. Many of them unwilling participants. 

So Ukraine has been a big loser. The people are suffering. All for nothing. But Zelensky's ok. He can ponce around in battle fatigues, getting attention from the fawning western media, and nobody can threaten HIS position. And you can bet your life he's becoming fabulously wealthy. Because that's the Ukrainian way. 

[StringJunky]

14 minutes ago, mistermack said:

You're the one who asked why there isn't an uprising to oust Zelensky. I'm just explaining it for you, why that would be pretty much impossible. Although I would have thought it was obvious.

Where was the support for Yanokovych before the war started?  Well, when this war's over, Zelensky can face his 'reckoning at the next election; history and the voters will judge him.

[mistermack]

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

the voters will judge him.

He already knows the result.

(and he's probably already got money bet on it)

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

He already knows the result.

(and he's probably already got money bet on it)

Do you think the west would be supporting him with billions of dollars if he was that corrupt?

[iNow]

It’s hard using reason and logic to argue someone out of a position at which they arrived using neither. 

[StringJunky]

27 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s hard using reason and logic to argue someone out of a position at which they arrived using neither. 

Ultimately, despite numerous failures historically, we have to continue to have faith, and support those who align, or seek to align, with our societal and geopolitical philosophies by whatever means necessary to achieve that... the victors write history. It's a Darwinian existential battle between radically-opposed geopolitical opponents. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by StringJunky

[iNow]

9 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It's a Darwinian existential battle between radically-opposed geopolitical opponents. 

Unfortunately, there's more artificial selection involved here than natural selection. Bad actors, bots, and active state sponsored disinformation campaigns are ruining the internet and the minds of many millions of humans using it. 

[swansont]

16 hours ago, mistermack said:

They ran the election. In the most corrupt country in Europe. Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia  

“Corruption reforms have seen some successes in Ukraine since the Revolution of Dignity. Police reform, public procurement, and dissolution of state owned industries since 2014 have led to reduced waste and corruption”

…

"Although it still scores low, war-torn Ukraine is one of few significant improvers on the CPI, having gained eight points since 2013."

 

 

They are rated as less corrupt than Russia (116th vs 137th)

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022/index/ukr

[mistermack]

20 hours ago, swansont said:

“Corruption reforms have seen some successes in Ukraine since the Revolution of Dignity. Police reform, public procurement, and dissolution of state owned industries since 2014 have led to reduced waste and corruption”

I'm not surprised at the finding. You won't get an true picture in war time, there would be a price to pay for "lack of loyalty". 

[swansont]

5 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I'm not surprised at the finding. You won't get an true picture in war time, there would be a price to pay for "lack of loyalty". 

So it doesn’t count, because it’s war time? Russia hasn’t shown such improvement, despite waging war.

[mistermack]

38 minutes ago, swansont said:

So it doesn’t count, because it’s war time? Russia hasn’t shown such improvement, despite waging war.

Russia's not under much of a threat. I wouldn't be surprised to see some bias in favour of Ukraine anyway, in this survey. It's a western managed survey. 

In any case, my point was that election results in Ukraine are not to be trusted, no matter who is in power, but especially in today's circumstances. But even notwithstanding that, the loyalties and results were pretty evenly split in the country, up until the coup.

[npts2020]

On 7/27/2023 at 11:33 PM, StringJunky said:

Do you think the west would be supporting him with billions of dollars if he was that corrupt?

Well the US (and frequently the rest of "The West") often supports unsavory and/or corrupt governments. Here are a few examples...

https://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_backed_international_crime_partner/

[swansont]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Russia's not under much of a threat. I wouldn't be surprised to see some bias in favour of Ukraine anyway, in this survey.

It’s the survey in the source you cited for your claim that Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe.

Quote

It's a western managed survey. 

“We are independent, non-governmental, not-for-profit and work with like-minded partners across the world to end the injustice of corruption.”

[mistermack]

Of course, Ukraine isn't the only corrupt country by any means. 

The difference though, is that it's perfectly legal in the USA. And they don't call it corruption there, it's called lobbying and campaign contributions. 

Is there anyone in the US who actually believes that Hunter Biden is not a crook? Or that his wide knowledge of the natural gas industry is why he was getting paid big bucks from Ukraine, and not at all for back door deals he was doing on behalf of his dad. 

Joe Biden has certainly been a "friend" to Ukraine since then. Coincidence I expect.

[iNow]

46 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Hunter Biden

Is off topic here 

[StringJunky]

7 hours ago, iNow said:

Is off topic here 

Symptomatic of running out of ideas.

[Sensei]

This is what the Crimea bridge looked like from the train on July 30:

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sensei

[mistermack]

Meanwhile the war is not going great. Ukraine's endemic corruption rose to the surface about a week ago, when it turned out that the entire management of conscription to the military had to be sacked for taking bribes from people who don't want to be called up, or helping them escape the country. (which is illegal for fighting age men). Ukraine fires military conscription officials for taking bribes - BBC News

I don't blame them, nearly half the country preferred to be linked to Russia, before the war, and it must be galling to have to risk losing your life and shooting at people that you'd rather not be fighting.

The much-vaunted spring offensive achieved practically nothing, and Ukraine's allies are looking for ways out. One of NATO's bigwigs said the other day that Ukraine might have to agree to a settlement that ceded territory to Russia. He was quickly forced to take it back, but it shows the kind of thinking that's going on behind the scenes. Nato official apologises over suggestion Ukraine could give up land for membership | Ukraine | The Guardian  

It's a bit comical anyway, the notion of giving up territory you've already lost. And Zelensky would never do it, it would be humiliation for him, and "face" is everything.

It's possible that Ukraine is on it's last legs reserves-wise, and could suffer a quick collapse if nothing changes.

But hey, Zelensky's a great guy, a wise and charismatic leader, and I'm sure he did the right thing in losing huge chunks of his country and tens of thousands of his people. 

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

cyber discussion has been split

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/132269-cyber-warfare-split-from-war-games-russia-takes-ukraine-china-takes-taiwan-us-response/

 

Let’s try and keep to the topic

 

 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

I don't blame them, nearly half the country preferred to be linked to Russia, before the war, and it must be galling to have to risk losing your life and shooting at people that you'd rather not be fighting.

I was tempted to just type DYHACFT? again, but I will try to address this further.  (yes, some trustworthy polling would be helpful on this matter)  You might get fewer DVs if you could better explain what you mean by a preference to be linked to Russia - do people having such preference really want to be part of Russia or part of a puppet state?  Zelenski's landslide win suggests the majority do not.  And there may be some who would like both better ties to EU and cordial links with Russia.  Again, I don't feel you have any reliable source on public opinions in Ukraine.  As always, the first casualty in war is...

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

I was tempted to just type DYHACFT? again

The answer's exactly the same : 

 

 It's hardly a state secret. If you have to ask, you clearly get your information from newspaper headlines. : "From the political perspective, one of the defining features of the politics of Ukraine is that for most of the time, it has been divided along two issues: the relation between Ukraine, the West and Russia, and the classical left-right divide.[154] The first two presidents, Kravchuk and Leonid Kuchma, tended to balance the competing visions of Ukraine,[155] though Yushchenko and Yanukovych were generally pro-Western and pro-Russian, respectively."   

Ukraine - Wikipedia 

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Zelenski's landslide win

Highly suspicious. You have tightly divided loyalties, then a coup, and then a landslide!! In a place as corrupt as Ukraine, why would you expect anything else? But even if it was legit, it wouldn't necessarily indicate a general change of historical loyalties, just dissatisfaction with the current guy on offer.

Boris Johnson got a landslide in this country. He's out already, and his party are in the depths support-wise. 

[Sensei]

..I have not seen Ukrainians with flowers greeting V.V.P. soldiers, either in February 2022 or now..